Lambic Digest #9401 Sat 01 Jan 1994 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the subject or body of your message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 00:28:32 +0100 From: dejonge at tekserv.geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge) Subject: candi colour With regards to the ongoing discussion on the colour contribution of dark candi sugar, some datapoints from my kitchen: Brown candi sugar (.5" crystals) 1g/10ml gives a colour of 60-70 EBC Dark brewers candi (1" crystals) 1g/10ml gives a colour of 110-120 EBC (diluted until identical to the colour of de Koninck (23 EBC)) That puts the colour of these sugars in the medium to dark crystal malt range. So I would definitely expect some effect on the final beer colour. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Marc de Jonge dejonge at geof.ruu.nl Utrecht University, Geophysics dept, Utrecht, the Netherlands -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 11:24:06 -0400 From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: white beer whiteness Sorry I'm a little late on this thread, but I've been away for the last week. I would like to point out that wit whiteness is not just chill haze, but permanent haze. I too have made crystal clear wits (and cloudy pale ales... go figure) with 50% wheat, albeit half of the wheat was malted. Going back through my references, as well as running a few experiments has led me to the conclusion that the problem is that I'm sparging as if I'm making, pardon the expression, a "regular" beer. I think in my next attempt I will recirculate an absolute minimal amount, just enough to remove any chunky matter. I intend to stir up the mash periodically when the runnings get too clear. During a long boil a small quantity of the starch which is insoluble in the mash will dissolve, increasing the body and mouthfeel. Much of the rest of the starch will drop out during fermentation. The result should be a nicely hazy white beer. ____________ Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. | Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. | Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jan 1994 16:48:56 -0500 (EST) From: STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com Subject: Judging the Belgians I'm been on vacation. But way back on Dec. 21, Jeff Frane said: >...................................................I have to strongly >disagree with something Mike Sharp said awhile back, in reference to the >mythical Bay Area Faux-Belgian Tasting. Mike seems to think that the >AHA has got a handle on the non-lambic Belgian styles and that the >judging of them isn't a problem. I'll grant you that at the final round >there was a least one intelligent judge on the panel that I saw, but it Aw, shucks, Jeff, you're making me blush! :-) I was on that final round panel at the Nationals and I'd say that the panel had significantly more than 'one intelligent judge.' I can't name all of the judges (Martin, can you help me out here?), but they included Martin Lodahl, Paddy Giffen, and, ummm, well, me. The other judges, whose names I can't recall at the moment, also appeared to be well versed in the ways of Belgian beer. What _was_ aggrevating about the final round was not the quality of judges, it was the number of judges. We had six (?) on our panel. With one bottle to taste from it was absolutely impossible to have enough beer left to discuss the ranking of the entries other than from memory. Phooey on the AHA for doing the Nationals this way. Three judges per category at the final round is enough. I see no need for more. Steve Stroud ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 09:35:32 MST From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) Subject: making candi I can get glucose, fructose, "table" sugar (generic, and cane), turbinado, brown, demura, little "semi-processed" sugar cones from cane (i guess these are common in mexico and central america), molasses, treacle.... possibly more... i do not remember. Which would be best to carmelize for "candi"? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:45:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Bill Kitch" Subject: Candi Sugar In LD #247 Aaron Birenboim asks about caramelizing his own sugar. FWIW I have used both glucose and sucrose (table sugar). In the amounts I have used (~1 lb/5 gals, OG > 1.065) I cannot tell the difference. I would not use any of the dark sugars (turbinado, brown, etc) unless you want some of that molassess flavor. The caramel flavor is definetly not molassess like. Sante' WAK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 08:28:38 -0800 (PST) From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Re: Caramelizing sucre > From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) > Subject: making candi > > > I can get glucose, fructose, "table" sugar (generic, and cane), turbinado, > brown, demura, little "semi-processed" sugar cones from cane (i guess these > are common in mexico and central america), molasses, treacle.... > possibly more... i do not remember. > > Which would be best to carmelize for "candi"? > Sucrose, i.e., table sugar. When it's completely refined, there is no difference between sugar derived from cane and that derived from beets. Michael Jackson (and, I think, Rajotte) claim that Belgian candi sugar retains residuals that affect the flavor/character of the beer, but I find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium) must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*. Without my notes, I'm not positive, but I think you might also do well caramelizing invert sugar. - --Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 08:36:19 -0800 (PST) From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) Subject: Belgian Judging, '93 AHA Nat'ls. In Lambic Digest #247, Steve Stroud said: > I was on that final round panel at the Nationals and I'd say that the panel had > significantly more than 'one intelligent judge.' I can't name all of the > judges (Martin, can you help me out here?), but they included Martin Lodahl, > Paddy Giffen, and, ummm, well, me. The other judges, whose names I > can't recall at the moment, also appeared to be well versed in the ways of > Belgian beer. Gosh, you caught me flat-footed. One additional name that comes to mind is Charlie Olchowski, who had returned from Belgium only days before. And then I think there was Michael Byers, a very experienced judge of the Belgian styles, but I could be wrong about that. And there was at least one more. Caramba! > What _was_ aggrevating about the final round was not the quality of judges, it > was the number of judges. We had six (?) on our panel. With one bottle to It was quite a crowd. The fact that there was a small coterie of stewards lurking in case of any remaining dregs didn't help, either. > taste from it was absolutely impossible to have enough beer left to discuss the > ranking of the entries other than from memory. Not to mention the fact that with so many people around the table, the normal give-and-take of arriving at a consensus was all but impossible, despite the fact that there wasn't a single rude or overbearing judge on the panel. > Phooey on the AHA for doing the Nationals this way. Three judges per category > at the final round is enough. I see no need for more. A-A-A-AMEN!! The only exception I'll admit to is perhaps an apprentice as the fourth judge, but not in the finals. Three-judge panels strike me as optimal. I do agree, however, that the judging of the Belgian styles is still pretty spotty. One reason for that is that for the majority of the judge pool the only contact with the commercial standards has been imports, which generally seem to be ancient and abused. I've had more than a few homebrews that are closer to fresh originals, than imported commercial beers are. = Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell = = malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 = = If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, = = Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) = ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 10:09 PST From: Kyle R Roberson Subject: pH of Celis White? Can (has) someone measure(d) the pH of Celis White? Please quote accuracy of the technique (i.e. +/- 0.2) if available. TIA. Kyle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 08:59:26 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: Re: Celis Ph > From: Kyle R Roberson > Subject: pH of Celis White? > > Can (has) someone measure(d) the pH of Celis White? Please quote accuracy of > the technique (i.e. +/- 0.2) if available. TIA. Kyle I believe the result was 4.1, within .1 Jim Busch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 10:02:29 -0400 From: "Phillip Seitz" Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #248 (January 05, 1994) This comment is a propos of not much, but Jeff Frane commented: >find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can >find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium) >must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*. I've been by beet sugar refineries in both Belgium and East Anglia, and I can testify from personal experience that "offensive" is a mild description for the smells that get vented off. Of course, this could be due to solvents, etc., but YECH! I don't if any of you care about this stuff, but watching the beet harvest in Hainaut and also the factory at work nearby was somehthing else. Special tractors are used to create vast pyramids of beets by the roadside, which are later collected in open trucks. The trucks proceed directly to the factory and line up. When they reach the head of the line a robot slams a sampling device into the back of the truck, and this device munches a few beets. In doing so it determines the sugar content and also the dirt content. These factors are calculated with the tare and gross weight of the truck, and that's how the farmer gets paid (i.e. on the total sugar quantity, less the weight of the dirt). This activity creates mud everywhere on the roads in this area. And for those of you who haven't seen a sugar beet, they look like super humongous parsnips, and are a kind of yellowish white. They're about 6"-8" inches in diameter, though I'm sure some of those suckers can approach the size and weight of a bowling ball. There you have it--more than you ever wanted to know. I'll be happy to answer "Dr. Sugar Beet" questions as soon as I get back from Belgium again (I'm leaving this afternoon). In my inimatably verbose style I'll report on anything that seems worthy after I return. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 10:02:29 -0400 From: "Phillip Seitz" Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #248 (January 05, 1994) This comment is a propos of not much, but Jeff Frane commented: >find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can >find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium) >must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*. I've been by beet sugar refineries in both Belgium and East Anglia, and I can testify from personal experience that "offensive" is a mild description for the smells that get vented off. Of course, this could be due to solvents, etc., but YECH! I don't if any of you care about this stuff, but watching the beet harvest in Hainaut and also the factory at work nearby was somehthing else. Special tractors are used to create vast pyramids of beets by the roadside, which are later collected in open trucks. The trucks proceed directly to the factory and line up. When they reach the head of the line a robot slams a sampling device into the back of the truck, and this device munches a few beets. In doing so it determines the sugar content and also the dirt content. These factors are calculated with the tare and gross weight of the truck, and that's how the farmer gets paid (i.e. on the total sugar quantity, less the weight of the dirt). This activity creates mud everywhere on the roads in this area. And for those of you who haven't seen a sugar beet, they look like super humongous parsnips, and are a kind of yellowish white. They're about 6"-8" inches in diameter, though I'm sure some of those suckers can approach the size and weight of a bowling ball. There you have it--more than you ever wanted to know. I'll be happy to answer "Dr. Sugar Beet" questions as soon as I get back from Belgium again (I'm leaving this afternoon). In my inimatably verbose style I'll report on anything that seems worthy after I return. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 09:19:41 MST From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) Subject: re: carmelizing sugar Thanks for the response on sugar to carmelize. I do not know the "carmelization" reaction.... but it would seem to me that the more complex (disaccheride {sp?}) sucrose might be the way to go. It is interesting to hear that the left-overs from beet sugar are offensiove. We have had a beet industry here in CO, and the beets themselves are quite tasty. However, I have never been around during refining runs, and I have heard that that is extremely offensive smelling. aaron P.S. On belgian judging... I have not been tracking names too much, but somebody here DID state that the style sheets are GUIDELINES, and judges are free to expand upon them if they know what is acceptable. I do not remember Belgian style guidelines, but I do recall weizen. It states that some banana is acceptable. Are we free to judge a beer highly if banana dominates as it does in many excellent FRESH weizens??? Yes, I'm being nasty here. I said FRESH in CAPS. I have never been to germany, but I hear that many of the highly reguarded weissbiers are strongly banana. I KNOW that as weiss ages, the banana subsides, leaving a sharp clovey beer as opposed to a smooth banana beer. I prefer smooth banana beer. I think that the guidelines are warped because judges are accustomed to STALE weizen from import, and are not familiar with the product as it is intended to be consumed (fresh). So.... I ask... are commercial belgians really a good way to train judges palletes??? I could swear that the Chimay premiere (red) hand carried from the monistary which I has was much MUCH fruiter and smoother (less phenolic) than the stuff i but here? Do belgian travlers agree? P.P.S. I hear there is a judging forum. Anybody know the request address? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 1994 12:28:25 -0400 From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: candi sugar >Sucrose, i.e., table sugar. When it's completely refined, there is no >difference between sugar derived from cane and that derived from beets. >Michael Jackson (and, I think, Rajotte) claim that Belgian candi sugar >retains residuals that affect the flavor/character of the beer, but I >find no evidence of that anywhere. In fact, the only evidence I can >find is to the contrary: beet sugar (which is what they grow in Belgium) >must be entirely refined or the left-over flavors are *offensive*. > >Without my notes, I'm not positive, but I think you might also do well >caramelizing invert sugar. > >- --Jeff I believe it is not residuals from the refining, but residuals from the process of making candi sugar from refined sugar. Candi sugar is recrystallaized, and has undergone some boiling and thus some caramelization. Someone, or a few someones has/have posted a method of producing invert sugar at home by boiling a thick sugar/water solution with a small quantity of citric (or was it ascorbic?) acid. This will split the sucrose into it's components glucose and fructose, and the boiling process can produce some caramelization. Check the HBD archives, somewhere around late summer or fall, for the exact recipe. If memory serves, there was a recipe posted followed by a correction a day or two later. ____________ Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. | Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. | Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 08:50:44 PST From: msharp at Synopsys.COM Subject: Chimay Magnum All of this talk reminded me... A few weeks ago I scored a _magnum_ of Chimay Grand Reserve (gold) for $15 at the Warehouse in Port Costa, CA. (for those in CA its about 1/2 hour north of Berkeley on 880 -- a few miles east of Crocket; just before the bridge over the straights to Vallejo) They didn't have any problems with leaving it sealed [the Warehouse is a very odd biker bar] so I could carry out & take it home. Now to find an occasion when I would actually drink a magnum of Chimay. (no, all of you visiting me isn't one I'd consider) --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:04:36 GMT From: Conn Copas Subject: Re: Rajotte and the importance of ingredients Todd Gierman wrote: "Yes, yes... I do think that Grimbergen Triple and Duvel share some indescribable aroma/flavor feature. So, my question is this: what is the likelihood of these two beers sharing the same yeast culture at some point in their processing (i.e. primary or secondary or bottle fermentations)? Maes boasts that Grimbergen Triple is bottle fermented, but there seems to be nothing revivable in the bottle. Anybody want to try to give a grist breakdown for Duvel (does it involve wheat?)?" According to Jackson, Duvel is 100% pilsener malt and historically required quite a bit of yeast isolation work in order to attain the necessary refined aroma. Pardon me if I come on like something of a philistine, but the most common descriptor associated with Duvel is 'beguiling', ie, it is an ale that fools non-connoiseurs into believing that it is a lager, and it is strong yet smooth. These characteristics are generally shared by many Belgian triples, some specials (Duvel, Delerium Tremens), and some Bieres de Garde (Trois Monts). We had some chat a while back about 'esters' being the defining feature of triples, but it seems to me that this ignores the effects of high gravity brewing. In comparison to a strong old ale or weaker barley wine, many of these triples actually lack blatant fruitiness. Instead, we admire their subtle vanilla, citric, etc, aromas. I find another common denominator is a certain DMS sweetness, from the lager malt. Whereas abbey beers and some doubles feature typically Belgian wild-yeast phenols, it seems to me that triples and their ilk must result from strains which are more pure and more highly selected, which increases the probability of brewers employing common yeast banks. This also probably means that we are transgressing lambic-digest etiquette by discussing these brews here, except that this list has more concentrated yeast culturing expertise than a brewers' picnic! For the record, my last British imports of both Duvel and Bruggse Triple, although sedimented, also had nothing revivable. "So, my question is this: Is there something about the Belgian malts that affects head retention? They do seem to produce a somewhat oily wort. Does it have more to do with their protein content?" Due to a lack of access to aromatic malts, I occasionally make an old ale which features around 3 lbs of British crystal. This has no head retention worth talking about until 3 months in the bottle. I too have noticed the oily nature of this wort. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:15:25 GMT From: Conn Copas Subject: Re: Special B A while back, Jeff Frane wrote: >I don't know that "sweetness" is the exact word I would use to describe >the contribution of Special B. Dave Logsdon refers to it as "raisiny", >and I think this is closer to the truth. John Harris used it in his >Doppelbock at the Full Sail Brewery at the River (brewpub) and produced >one of the most authentic versions I've tasted. There is definitely a >note contributed by the Special B that is lacking from most caramel >malts, almost a sharp edge. How about Gouden Carolus as a commercial prototype? Jackson describes it as having a 'fig' character, and I was almost ready to attempt a clone by culturing some of the yeast and using 1-2 lbs of raisins in the wort; sort of a beer/wine crossover. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 17:26:53 BD3 From: BRFUEL Mail Server Subject: Unread mail/note. Please DO NOT REPLY. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% >>> PLEASE READ THIS <<< %% %% This mail is being sent to you by the BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNET. %% %% This is an automatic answer. So, DO NOT REPLY to this mail. %% %% Thank you. %% %%--------------------------------------------------------------------%% %% * DEVMAILS, Release 1.3, 1993. %% %% Written by Julio Cesar Wunderlich (JCWUNDER at BRFUEM.BITNET). %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% The BRFUEL system is returning your mail/note below to you because of the user LUCIO have not read the message in last 7 days. - ------ BRFUEL Mail Server e-mail = BITNET at BRFUEL - ------ - -----------------RETURNED MAIL/NOTE FILE------------------ Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by BRFUEL.BITNET (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 0824; Tue, 28 Dec 93 05:40:48 BD3 Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP at CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6615; Tue, 28 Dec 1993 02:32:14 -0500 Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 28 Dec 93 02:32:12 EST Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id AAA14083 for reallambic; Tue, 28 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199312280730.AAA14083 at longs.lance.colostate.edu> From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (Are you SURE you want to send it HERE?) Reply-to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (CHANGE THIS IF NECESSARY) Errors-to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Subject: Lambic Digest #241 (December 28, 1993) Apparently-To: reallambic Lambic Digest #241 Tue 28 December 1993 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Contents: Wheat in White Beer/Esters in Triple ("Bill Kitch") Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:19:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Bill Kitch" Subject: Wheat in White Beer/Esters in Triple re: white In the white beer thread that we had going a couple of months ago there was some discussion of what sort of wheat to use, low gluten soft white or high gluten red wheat (durham?). As I recall the agruments for/against were something like: Soft white--The type of wheat traditionally grown in Europe. Probably what would have been (is being?) used. More difficult to find in U.S. Lower protein content of the two. Hard red -- of U.S. origin. Higher protien content of the two. Easy to find. What Celis professes to use. I dilligently searched out soft white wheat following the historical/traditional line of thought. One of the many things wrong w/my white was no protien haze! 45% raw wheat and no haze! Anyway I'm reconsidering the type of wheat and was wondering what others have used and with what results? Todd? ******* re: esters in triple Scott B. asked about appropriateness of esters in triple after I mentioned the "high esters" in a triple I brewed. In my *opinion* the triple style is the cleanest of all the Belgian ales. When I typed "high ester levels" I meant high wrt beer in general. Certainly within the Belgian styles, the triple has a moderate ester level--nothing like some of the dark abbey ales (e.g. Corsendonk brown). The light color and relatively light body (for a high gravity beer) of the triple call for (I believe) moderation in esters, fruityness, and any spicing added, otherwise the balance is off. Of course these are just my opinions. As to whether or not I've got a good triple recipe, I await the comments of Phil Seitz and Jim Busch. Bonne Annee, WAK - ------------------------------ End of Lambic Digest ************************ - ------- 'Are you SURE you wa BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNE 12/28/93 Lambic Digest #241 (December 2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 17:47:16 BD3 From: BRFUEL Mail Server Subject: Unread mail/note. Please DO NOT REPLY. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% >>> PLEASE READ THIS <<< %% %% This mail is being sent to you by the BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNET. %% %% This is an automatic answer. So, DO NOT REPLY to this mail. %% %% Thank you. %% %%--------------------------------------------------------------------%% %% * DEVMAILS, Release 1.3, 1993. %% %% Written by Julio Cesar Wunderlich (JCWUNDER at BRFUEM.BITNET). %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% The BRFUEL system is returning your mail/note below to you because of the user LUCIO have not read the message in last 7 days. - ------ BRFUEL Mail Server e-mail = BITNET at BRFUEL - ------ - -----------------RETURNED MAIL/NOTE FILE------------------ Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by BRFUEL.BITNET (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 4346; Sun, 26 Dec 93 05:32:12 BD3 Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP at CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 1812; Sun, 26 Dec 1993 02:31:59 -0500 Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 26 Dec 93 02:31:58 EST Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id AAA08457 for reallambic; Sun, 26 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1993 00:30:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199312260730.AAA08457 at longs.lance.colostate.edu> From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (Are you SURE you want to send it HERE?) Reply-to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (CHANGE THIS IF NECESSARY) Errors-to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Subject: Lambic Digest #240 (December 26, 1993) Apparently-To: reallambic Lambic Digest #240 Sun 26 December 1993 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Contents: Various ("Phillip R. Seitz") Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Dec 93 16:09:16 -0400 From: "Phillip R. Seitz" Subject: Various 1) White beer I've had the pleasure of tasting Todd Ender's most recent white beer, and I can say with no shame or hesitation that it was really top-notch. I will definitely be trying to brew some more in the not-too-distant future, and will be working from his recipe. 2) Triples Fruitiness, no, but other esters maybe--particularly the spicier ones. I'd even through some unusual phenols in. And as I recall, Leffe Triple is quite agressively hopped, although this isn't the general rule. I think that yeast selection is the critical factor, and I've found that even some well informed judges (ahem!) seem to mistake yeast aromas for hoppy ones. 3) Current projects I'm still enamored of strong Belgian ales, and particularly with the ones from the Binchoise and Achouffe breweries. Fortunately the Chouffe yeast is a star perfomer, and is available from the Yeast Culture Kit Company (strain A36) or from me I suppose (assuming you provide a slant and return envelope). In any case, the last attempt in this style took 3rd in the HOPS/BOPS (though I'll have to have a TALK with BILL RIDGELY), and I'm hoping the next batch will be THE ONE. Tentative recipe includes 1 lb caravienne with Belgian Pils malt to 1.080 and 15 IBU styrian goldings, plus 15 gr. whole coriander and the same amount of sweet orange. Ferment at 62F. - ------------------------------ End of Lambic Digest ************************ - ------- 'Are you SURE you wa BITNET at BRFUEL.BITNE 12/26/93 Lambic Digest #240 (December 2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:25:06 -0800 (PST) From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Duvel grist Michael Jackson has changed his tune on Duvel, incidentally -- and about time. His earlier books always claimed it was an all-malt beer, but in the Beer Companion he mentions -- oh, by the way -- that they jack the OG up 20 points or so "before fermentation" with dextrose! I split a 750 ml bottle last night with my wife, and it's obvious that this is really how the beer is made -- it's way too dry for the gravity for an all-malt beer, IMHO. Jackson also says that they are using two yeast strains, narrowed down from multiple strains -- which DeClerck cultured from a bottle-conditioned McEwan's beer. !! So much for "Belgian" ale yeast, eh? Supposedly, the beer is fermented in separate batches (each with a single strain) and then blended. Jackson also sez they use Saaz and a Styrian Golding for hopping. But do the Belgians give him the straight? - --Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:59:57 -0600 From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss) Subject: AHA natnls / Chimay malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) writes >In Lambic Digest #247, Steve Stroud said: >> I was on that final round panel at the Nationals and I'd say that the panel had >> significantly more than 'one intelligent judge.' I can't name all of the >> judges (Martin, can you help me out here?), but they included Martin Lodahl, >> Paddy Giffen, and, ummm, well, me. The other judges, whose names I >>> can't recall at the moment, also appeared to be well versed in the ways of >> Belgian beer. >Gosh, you caught me flat-footed. One additional name that comes >to mind is Charlie Olchowski, who had returned from Belgium only >days before. And then I think there was Michael Byers, a very >experienced judge of the Belgian styles, but I could be wrong >about that. And there was at least one more. Caramba! >From the score sheets: Charlie Olckowski, Martin Lodahl, Paddy Giffen, Michael Byers, Steve Stroud. >> What _was_ aggrevating about the final round was not the quality of judges, it >> was the number of judges. We had six (?) on our panel. With one bottle to >It was quite a crowd. The fact that there was a small coterie of >stewards lurking in case of any remaining dregs didn't help, either. >> taste from it was absolutely impossible to have enough beer left to discuss the >> ranking of the entries other than from memory. All in all, the comments were pretty much right on track. The top of the bottle of the beer I entered was totally different from the bottom (I had added quite a bit of extra yeast for chimay-like dregs). It was pretty obvious which judges got the top of the bottle ("body a little thin") and which got the bottom ("big, chewey, complex"). Having fewer judges would avoid this problem. - ------------------------ msharp at Synopsys.COM writes: >Now to find an occasion when I would actually drink a magnum of Chimay. >(no, all of you visiting me isn't one I'd consider) A magnum is 2 fifths? A few months back we went to a bar in downtown Dallas (forget the name). I was in a mood for guinness draught, and the wanted $5.50 a pint for it! Almost twice as expensive as the nearest competitor. 27 oz bottles of chimay red were also $5.50 (cheaper than the liquor store). I asked the waitress who thought up their hair-brained pricing scheme, and proceeded to quaff 5 bottles of chimay that night. worst hangover I've ever had. On another note, we can now get 12 bottles of chimay blue here. bb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:17:48 -0500 From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman) Subject: what is carmelization? Aaron writes: > Thanks for the response on sugar to carmelize. I do not know the >"carmelization" reaction.... but it would seem to me that the more >complex (disaccheride {sp?}) sucrose might be the way to go. Okay, food scientists/organic chemists, what does carmelized (candi)sugar contribute to your Belgian ales that raw or uncarmelized sugar does not? I seem to think, for one reason or another, that carmelization is essentially the process of heat induced polymer formation. So, let's say that your 'mer' is glucose. When carmelized, you end up with erratically formed chains of glucose. Is this correct? Then it would be these polymers that produce color, right? So, does the addition of carmelized sugar also introduce unfermentables into the wort? And would these unfermentables produce residual sweetness, in addition to a "carmelized" flavor? I seem to remember a demonstration in high school chemistry where polymers were created using beet sugar and sulfuric acid. When the acid was added to a beaker of sucrose, it erupted to produce a blackened, elongated mass of polymerized sugar. Is this essentially similar to carmelization? I suppose this issue may have been addressed previously, but I was just wondering. Here's the procedure for invert sugar from HBD #1275: >Invert sugar can be made by adding four pounds of cane/beet (white) >sugar to two pints of water and 2 teaspoons of citric acid. Heat >until it comes to a boil. Watch it, the boilover of this stuff makes >a wort boilover look like nothing. Continue with a low boil for one >hour. Allow to cool, dilute to one gallon. Todd ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 1994 09:47:08 -0500 From: "Daniel F McConnell" Subject: Millions die in brewery exp Subject: Millions die in brewery explosion! Here's the story. I brewed a 15 gallon batch of pLambik last November and fermented it for 5 days in a 15 gal HDPE fermenter. 9 gal was racked to a 10 gal oak barrel and the remaining 6 was left in the HDPE to which I added peaches and raspberries. The next week I made another 10 gal of pLambik and used it to top up both the barrel and the HDPE fermenter. The following night I went down in the basement to check the ferment and was surprised to see the beer flowing out of the barrel through the airlock and onto the floor (sort of like the photographs in the books). I was on my knees cleaning up and then looked up at the HDPE and was shocked to see that it was SWOLLEN LIKE A BASKETBALL! Oh, think fast! 15 gallons of beer under pressure is not something to fool with. I touched the airlock to slowly release pressure, but as soon as I touched it, it shot off and ricocheted off the ceiling, spraying beer everywhere. The initial explosion was followed by 4-6 inch fountain and then a slow ooze for about 12 hours until everything was again under control (and cleaned). There were millions of yeasts and bacteria dead and dying, drying on the rafters and blocks of the basement. I am still haunted by their screams. The only REAL problem is that this beer had been pitched before the explosion with Pediococcus, Brettanomyces and various other bugs cultured from a bottle of Boon Gueuse. Now my basement fermentation area is probably heavily contaminated (inoculated?). Would I EVER brew a normal beer again??? I waited to post this until I had brewed again. This time a pale ale. I tapped the keg a day or so ago and it is absolutely clean with no signs of PC or BL contamination. Still a little early to tell, but I think there will be no problems. DanMcC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:46:30 -0800 From: paul at rational.com (Paul Jasper) Subject: Re: Duvel grist On 6 Jan, 7:25, Jeff Frane wrote: > Subject: Duvel grist > > Michael Jackson has changed his tune on Duvel, incidentally -- and about > time. His earlier books always claimed it was an all-malt beer, but in > the Beer Companion he mentions -- oh, by the way -- that they jack the > OG up 20 points or so "before fermentation" with dextrose! What exactly does he say? My copy of the Beer Companion is at home. Roger Protz ("The European Beer Almanac", 1991) says: "ABV 8.5%; degrees Plato 17.5; OG 1070 "Ingredients Pale malt, brewing sugar for bottle fermentation. Saaz and Styrian hops. 30 units of bitterness. Top fermenting yeast." > [...] > > But do the Belgians give him the straight? Or Protz either? >-- End of excerpt from Jeff Frane - -- - -- Paul Jasper - -- RATIONAL Software Corporation - -- Design Support Tools - -- ------------------------------ Date: 08 Jan 1994 12:18:12 PST From: "Postmaster" Subject: DISTRIBUTION STATUS SOFT-SWITCH SMTP.LAMBIC DISTRIBUTION STATUS INFORMATION 01/08/94 12:18:0 ======================================================================= DISTRIBUTION ID: SMTP.LAMBIC.8555 SUBJECT : Lambic Digest #251 (January 08, 1994) DATE SENT : 01/08/94 TIME SENT: 08:11:00 ======================================================================= YOUR MAIL WAS NOT DELIVERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON: SNADS STATUS : 0501 EXPLANATION : CANCELED ======================================================================= RECIPIENT : CHARLOTT.KBARRY LAST NAME : BARRY FIRST NAME : KEN MIDDLE INITIAL : NATIVE NAME : COUNTRY : US ADMD : MCI PRMD : EPRIX400 ORGANIZATION : EPRI ORG UNIT 1 : ORG UNIT 2 : ORG UNIT 3 : ORG UNIT 4 : DDA : ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 8:26:20 EST From: Dick Herring Subject: Re: digest listserve failed on 1/8 What happened? I do read and enjoy the digest. Thanks, Dick Herring rdh1 at ctt.bellcore.com > > > > Lambic Digest #252 Sun 09 January 1994 > > > Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) > Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator > > > Contents: > DISTRIBUTION STATUS ("Postmaster") > > > Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu > Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: > lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu > Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: > netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: 08 Jan 1994 12:18:12 PST > From: "Postmaster" > Subject: DISTRIBUTION STATUS > > SOFT-SWITCH > SMTP.LAMBIC DISTRIBUTION STATUS INFORMATION 01/08/94 12:18:0 > > ======================================================================= > > DISTRIBUTION ID: SMTP.LAMBIC.8555 > SUBJECT : Lambic Digest #251 (January 08, 1994) > DATE SENT : 01/08/94 TIME SENT: 08:11:00 > ======================================================================= > > YOUR MAIL WAS NOT DELIVERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASON: > > SNADS STATUS : 0501 > EXPLANATION : CANCELED > > ======================================================================= > > RECIPIENT : CHARLOTT.KBARRY > LAST NAME : BARRY > FIRST NAME : KEN > MIDDLE INITIAL : > NATIVE NAME : > COUNTRY : US > ADMD : MCI > PRMD : EPRIX400 > ORGANIZATION : EPRI > ORG UNIT 1 : > ORG UNIT 2 : > ORG UNIT 3 : > ORG UNIT 4 : > DDA : > > > ------------------------------ > > > End of Lambic Digest > ************************ > ------- > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 11:28:54 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Optimum temperatures I finally got around to drawing out a sample of the pKriek I have going. The apparent gravity is down to 1.009, down from an O.G. of 1.052 and there is a nice level of Brett. flavor with some sourness in the finish. It almost tasted good enough to make me go back for more ;-) My question is this: what is the optimum conditioning temperature for a lambic? I can go all the way from 50 F in my basement all the way to 75 F in areas near heating vents. I know what temperatures work for my ale yeast, but what about the Pediococcus and Brettanamyces? Thanks, Scott - -- ======================================================================== Scott Bickham bickham at msc.cornell.edu ========================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 16:01:30 EST From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name Subject: First Attempt at a pLambic In the next week or so I'm going to make my first attempt at a pLambic and wanted to run my game plan by the collective wisdom of the digest. I've made "Belgian-Style Fruit Beers (ales)" in the past and have never been too impressed with them. I've read the Lambic FAQ and Guinard's book and even visted Belgium once (had the lambic at Cafe Bacouse (sp?) in Brussells. Enough bragging :>) here's the plan: Make 15 gals of base pLambic using 60% American 2-Row Malted Barley and and 40% UNMALTED wheat. I assume it will be hard, red winter wheat (I'll be getting it from a local feed store. Is Belgian Malt worth it and/or necessary for pLambic? Is hard, red winter wheat a mistake? The hops will be clusters pellets which are a year old. Should I use 12ozs for 15 gals. I will be baking them in a 300 degree oven for 1 hour. Their AA is 7.0%. Is this too much if its been baked? I'll have to use three glass carboys - two 7.5 gals and one 6.5 gals. Do oak chips make sense? I'm planning on using Belgian Ale Yeast (Wyeast # 1214). Does this have too much "character"? Should I instead use a "blander" Saccaromyces Cerevisiae? If so which one? Where do I get the Brettanomyces Lambicus (and/or Bruxellenis) and Pediococcus Damnosus? From a bottle of Boon or is there a commercial source these days? When should I add them? S. Cerevisiae at beginning of primary fermentation, Brett after one month and Pedio after two months? I plan on keeping them in the carboys in my basement (where my furnace is) at about 65 degrees from February 1st until mid-summer. At that time I will add sour cherries (probably 10lbs) to one, raspberries (probably 5lbs) and peaches (probably 10lbs) to each. All fresh fruit. Then I figured let it sit until spring (15 months total). Anything I'm missing? I would greatly appreciate input on any or all of the questions I've raised either directly or via the digest. TIA. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1994 19:04:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Delano Dugarm 36478 Subject: Brett. and porter ~# I know that this is not a lambic question, but it does concern another sour beer, and contributers here now more about Brettanomyces handling than anyone else. Has anyone tried an "old-style" porter or stock ale, with Brettanomyces added? The article on porters in Brewing Techniques last year got me thinking about this, but I have not come accross anyone who has actually tried. In a case like this, how much Brett should be added, when (I imagine in the secondary), how long should it be left to develop? What do people think of WYeast's Brett. culture? It's the variety most easily available to me. Delano DuGarm adugarm at worldbank.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 13:23 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Re: First attempt Mark writes: >Make 15 gals of base pLambic using 60% American 2-Row Malted Barley and >and 40% UNMALTED wheat. I assume it will be hard, red winter wheat (I'll >be getting it from a local feed store. Is Belgian Malt worth it and/or >necessary for pLambic? Is hard, red winter wheat a mistake? Seed grains are much better than feed grains since they have much less weed seeds and are more uniform. >The hops will be clusters pellets which are a year old. Should I use >12ozs for 15 gals. I will be baking them in a 300 degree oven for 1 hour. >Their AA is 7.0%. Is this too much if its been baked? Clusters are probably a bad choice, considering that they have some of the very best storagability and IMHO have a rather irritating back-of-the- throat character (which aging may not remove). I suggest whole hops and then something like Hallertauer, N. Brewer, Hersbrucker, Mt. Hood, Liberty -- hops with more moderate character -- i.e. I would advise against the hops with assertive characteristics: Cascade, Goldings, etc. >I'll have to use three glass carboys - two 7.5 gals and one 6.5 gals. >Do oak chips make sense? Oak chips may be nice to get an oaky character, but the oak casks add a lot more than just oak flavor/aroma -- they breathe and let O2 in to the fementing and aging brew. This seems to change the way that the Brett and Pedio act. I used a 20 gallon HDPE Brute for primary fermentation for this reason. It seems to have worked well. The Brett could be stronger, but I used B. Lambicus and Mike has reported that B. Brux has more "Brett" character. >I'm planning on using Belgian Ale Yeast (Wyeast # 1214). Does this have >too much "character"? Should I instead use a "blander" Saccaromyces >Cerevisiae? If so which one? I recommend blander. The 1214 has a spicy character which may not be appropriate for a pLambiek. I used SNPA yeast, which is Wyeast #1056. >Where do I get the Brettanomyces Lambicus (and/or Bruxellenis) and >Pediococcus Damnosus? From a bottle of Boon or is there a commercial >source these days? Wyeast has a Brettanomyces Bruxellensis. G.W. Kent distributes a Pediococcus Cerevisiae, which I've had success with. >When should I add them? S. Cerevisiae at beginning of primary fermentation, >Brett after one month and Pedio after two months? I suggest either adding them all together or (what I'm contemplating) adding the Brett and the Pedio a few days ahead of the Saccharomyces, but this could cause trouble with unwanted visitors. >I plan on keeping them in the carboys in my basement (where my furnace is) >at about 65 degrees from February 1st until mid-summer. At that time I >will add sour cherries (probably 10lbs) to one, raspberries (probably >5lbs) and peaches (probably 10lbs) to each. All fresh fruit. Then I figured >let it sit until spring (15 months total). I think your amounts are good. I suggest you freeze and blanch the fruit to sanitize the outsides and then mush them very slightly as they go into the fermenter. Make sure to use a 1" ID blowoff tube after you add fruit!!! Oh yes... don't expect much Brett or Pedio character in the flavor or aroma till at least six months after pitching. Al. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 08:44:39 PST From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: huh? Al writes: > The Brett could be > stronger, but I used B. Lambicus and Mike has reported that B. Brux has > more "Brett" character. Huh? I think there might be some context missing here. Perhaps something like "I've got two new strains from and it seems that [with these two strains]..." I wouldn't claim this for all strains of B. bruxellensis vs. all strains of B. lambicus. --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:42:39 -0400 From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: Re: Brett. and porter Delano Dugarm writes: > I know that this is not a lambic question, but it does concern >another sour beer, and contributers here now more about Brettanomyces >handling than anyone else. > Has anyone tried an "old-style" porter or stock ale, with >Brettanomyces added? The article on porters in Brewing Techniques >last year got me thinking about this, but I have not come accross >anyone who has actually tried. In a case like this, how much Brett >should be added, when (I imagine in the secondary), how long should it >be left to develop? > What do people think of WYeast's Brett. culture? It's the >variety most easily available to me. The Bar Harbour brewery has had chronic infection problems with their beers. The pale ale I had was phenolic and kind of nasty. Their Cole Porter (*insert Mork from Ork "Ar Ar" sounds here*) on the other hand was infected with something else. The people who had purchased it were very appologetic. No need. I was completely intrigued. It still had a dryish porter character, clean and roasty, but with a tight, clean lactic sourness. It was wonderful. If only I had had the foresight to bring my culture kit with me that evening I might have found the perfect bug for making flanders brown... That is how I would picture a classic historic porter. To answer your question, if you have ready access to Wyeast Brett, go for it. If you can get the Yeast Lab Brett, it is a little less horsey (lambicus vs bruxellensis), but the roastiness of the porter should help prevent that from coming too much to the fore. You can pitch the brett with the Saccharomyces, and give the Brett some wood to live in (a few hunks of hardwood in a bucket, or a few dowells if you brew in a carboy). If you are really worried about the S. cerevisiae killing off the Brett, then picth a little extra after it's fermented out. Age it several months. Let me know how it turns out. ____________ Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. | Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. | Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 08:42:54 PDT From: Gary Rich Subject: Lambic Digest #254 (January 12, 1994) Delano Dugarm queried: Subject: Brett. and porter ~# I know that this is not a lambic question, but it does concern another sour beer, and contributers here now more about Brettanomyces handling than anyone else. Has anyone tried an "old-style" porter or stock ale, with Brettanomyces added? The article on porters in Brewing Techniques last year got me thinking about this, but I have not come accross anyone who has actually tried. In a case like this, how much Brett should be added, when (I imagine in the secondary), how long should it be left to develop? What do people think of WYeast's Brett. culture? It's the variety most easily available to me. - ------ { I've got a test batch of "Stock Ale" going right now. I made a 4 gallon batch of 1.055 pale ale and split it into 4 one gallon batches. one has already been bottled as the "running" beer. The other three are in one gallon secondaries with a few tablespoons of french oak chips (boiled 20 minutes to sterilize and remove most of the tannins) and one of my three brett cultures: 1) A commercial "lambicus" that seems (from its taxonomy) not to be really brett, but we'll see how the beer comes out. 2) A pure culture from a F. Boon bottle that behaves like bruxelensis. 3) Another Boon culture that behaves like B. anomalus. I grew up the bretts in a mix of DME, yeast extract and calcium carbonate (the buffer the ph). Pitched about 50ml of starter per 1 gallon batch. So far it's been only 1 month in the secondary. Oddly, all three have a small amount of bubbles rising in them, but I've yet to see an airlock go "glub". Last time I sniffed them none had really developed a brett nose, but they are about due for another sniff. I assume that I'm going to leave them for ~4 months before bottling. The goal of all this is to find the best candidate for my higher gravity stock porter, but I thought a pale ale was a better way to go for the test. Less other flavors to compete. The designations given the 3 bretts are fallout from the _Great_Brett_Controversy_of_'93_ that so many of us were involved in. #2 and #3 are so designated by refering to: Campbell, I. 1971. Numerical Taxonomy of Various Genera of Yeasts. J. of General Microbilogy. 67:223-231. (thanks Todd) } -Gary R.- garyrich at qdeck.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1994 16:50:49 -0800 From: "Dave Suurballe" Subject: Competitions I've been busy and could't respond to this when it would have been appropriate, and now that I've got some time, I can't remember who it should go to. Some time ago somebody complained about lousy judging at the California State Homebrew Competition. Some kind of Belgian beer he had entered in the Strong Ale category failed in the Preliminary Round. There are a few things I'd like to say about this. 1. Most competition entrants think they're going to win, and when they don't, they blame the competition organizers, the judges, etc. 2. Good beers sometimes don't win. I don't know why. Maybe there's too many good beers. Maybe it depends on the order they're tasted in. Maybe it depends on how many beers the judges have to judge. Maybe it just depends on the tastes of the judges. 3. People who brew styles that are not well known or which are just becoming known to the beer-judging category should not be surprised or indignant if the judges are less expert than they. It is unfortunate that this can happen, but what do you expect when you are operating at a frontier? In ten years the country will be filled with expert Belgian beer judges. Enter your beer then. I'm very cynical about competitions, and I say if you don't like them, don't waste your time, money, beer, emotion, etc entering them. Lastly, if you think you can judge better than last year's judges, then you should be one of next year's judges. The California State Homebrew Competition is always looking for good judges. I know; I'm one of the organizers. One of the judges, too. In fact, I judged your beer last year. I don't remember it, of course, but I do remember that as a whole, the Belgians were pretty hoppy. I think there were about a half-dozen of them, and only one made it to the Final Round. Dave Suurballe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 11:28:59 -0400 From: Ed Hitchcock Subject: A bit of this, a bit of that... Mike replies to Al: >I think there might be some context missing here. Perhaps something >like "I've got two new strains from and it seems that [with these >two strains]..." >I wouldn't claim this for all strains of B. bruxellensis vs. all strains >of B. lambicus. > > --Mike There are two short quotes which may have led to this (mis-) conception: Mike Sharp on reporting the new Wyeast releases: "Good news, it's bruxellensis!" and from the Lambic FAQ/Dartboard: "B. bruxellensis has more 'horsey' character". These comments, intentionally or not, leave one with the impression that bruxellensis is more desirable, just as reading Guinard's book leaves one with the impression that lambicus is better. Ideally you want both anyway, and it boils down to personal preferance. Dave Suurballe writes: >Some time ago somebody complained about lousy judging at the >California State Homebrew Competition. Some kind of Belgian beer >he had entered in the Strong Ale category failed in the Preliminary >Round. There are a few things I'd like to say about this. > >1. Most competition entrants think they're going to win, and when >they don't, they blame the competition organizers, the judges, etc. > >2. Good beers sometimes don't win. I don't know why. Maybe there's >too many good beers. Maybe it depends on the order they're tasted in. >Maybe it depends on how many beers the judges have to judge. Maybe >it just depends on the tastes of the judges. > >3. People who brew styles that are not well known or which are just >becoming known to the beer-judging category should not be surprised or >indignant if the judges are less expert than they. It is unfortunate >that this can happen, but what do you expect when you are operating at >a frontier? In ten years the country will be filled with expert >Belgian beer judges. Enter your beer then. > >I'm very cynical about competitions, and I say if you don't like them, >don't waste your time, money, beer, emotion, etc entering them. > >Lastly, if you think you can judge better than last year's judges, >then you should be one of next year's judges. The California State >Homebrew Competition is always looking for good judges. I know; I'm >one of the organizers. One of the judges, too. In fact, I judged >your beer last year. I don't remember it, of course, but I do >remember that as a whole, the Belgians were pretty hoppy. I think >there were about a half-dozen of them, and only one made it to the >Final Round. An organizer and judge who's cynical about competitions? Hmm. I got the impression that the concerns of belgian-style brewers were not that they didn't win. They were that their beers were ousted in the preliminaries for having the very characteristics that define belgian beers. The concerns were raised not to flame judges, but to promote discussion on how this sort of problem can be reduced in the future. The discussion was picked up on the JudgeNet Digest, and much useful dialogue ensued. This was not a case of sour grapes. This was a case of How can we improve things in order to reduce the incidence of this sort of thing in future competitions, particularly large scale regional and national competitions? ____________ Ed Hitchcock ech at ac.dal.ca | Oxymoron: Draft beer in bottles. | Anatomy & Neurobiology | Pleonasm: Draft beer on tap. | Dalhousie University, Halifax |___________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:20:33 -0600 (UTC -06:00) From: ROWLEY at KU9000.CC.UKANS.EDU Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe lambic digest ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 11:10 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Report on Wyeast Brett No, I haven't used it yet, but the three packages of Wyeast Brettanomyces Bruxellensis I have at the store are slowly getting puffier (they are about four weeks old). This is good news, I'd say... in line with what I've read about Brett habits. The packages are about 1/5" thick now, if you spread the puffiness out across the whole package. I've been meaning to brew with this yeast, but have been just too darn busy! Al. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 14:18:56 EST From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name Subject: Brett and Pedio Cultures I have contacted five different homebrew retailers and none currently carry Brett or Pedio cultures from G.W.Kent or Wyeast and they don't seem to think they can get them. Does anyone know of a retail source for these cultures. Let me know via the digest or privately at mstickler at lvh.com. TIA. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman Subject: acetate/enteric bacteria As I gear up for my first lambic I have a question for the net.wisdom. I find Cantillon Lambics to be more acetic than lactic and I like this characteristic. In the _Lambic_ book by (what's his name?), it says that the first major organism to have its way with the wort is an enteric bacterium that produces acetic acid. I have never seen a reference to use of an enteric bacterium in a pLambic, and I don't fancy the use of the one I know I have access to. What about adding acetic acid to the wort after cooling? This way it would be in there during all the subsequent fermentation, as it is (according to the book) in the real thing. Jeremy Bergsman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 94 09:51:16 EST From: John Eustace <3JCE1 at QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA> Subject: Brett and Pedio cultures Hi all, Just thought some of you would be interested in knowing that there is another source for Brettanomyces and Pedioccus cultures. Brewtek, which is the part of Brewer's resource run by Dr. Maribeth Raines, now sells these two cultures. Has anybody used them yet? Any comments. Hope this isn't old news. Cheers JE ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 11:55:30 -0600 From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss) Subject: enteric bacteria Jeremy Ballard Bergsman writes: >I find Cantillon Lambics to be more acetic than lactic and I like this >characteristic. In the _Lambic_ book by (what's his name?), it says >that the first major organism to have its way with the wort is an >enteric bacterium that produces acetic acid. I have never seen a >reference to use of an enteric bacterium in a pLambic, and I don't >fancy the use of the one I know I have access to. Guinard says (somewhere in his book that I remember but can't find) that bat guano (from bats which are able to fit through the tile roof and perch over the cooling vat) is largely responsible for the enteric bacteria introduced in some lambics. why not use the real thing? bb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 1994 09:43:22 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Wooden dowels? In a posting last week, someone mentioned that oak chips or wooden dowels should be used when fermenting a pLambic in a glass carboy. Is this the usual practice, or can I get by without them? Thanks, Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 94 17:40:01 GMT From: Conn Copas Subject: Sherry yeasts A while back, we had some speculation that sherry flor microbes might be a good way to introduce some controlled oxidation into the secondary, and thus imitate brews such as Rodenbach. I've started playing with this idea, and could use some information on the requirements of the microbe, in this case, S. cervisiae (beticus). Is there anybody out there with handy access to a reference manual? For starters, I am presuming the bug is largely aerobic. I have tried using a dried yeast in the _primary_, and it seemed to exhibit a long lag time, and also spewed out various unpleasant phenols. Of course, I could simply have had an infection. I didn't try to plate it out. Speaking of which, I have been wondering about the wisdom of making up a plate which substitutes fermented beer for the usual malt extract/water mix. I've proved that I can make a solid plate; I'm just wondering whether there are any reasons not to expect something to grow. My major concern is whether this yeast insists on sherry-like conditions, ie, wine-style acidity, high alcohol and, according to folklore, a high conc of CaSO4. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 94 14:29:03 MST From: pyeatt at CS.ColoState.EDU (Larry Pyeatt) Subject: Adding a bit of culture. I have a bottle of 1989 Boone Framboise. Are there any usable beasties inside? How can I go about culturing them to make sure that I get a good sample of all the critters? On another topic, I have a slurry of Pedio from G.W. Kent. Can this be cultured on a slant? Will plain agar work, or do I need some other growth medium? Any advice on technique or materials would be appreciated. Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply. pyeatt at cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1994 02:48:02 GMT From: "Central Postmaster" Subject: Mail Delivery Status ***** Error in Mail Delivery ***** ROUTING ERROR Recipients: MSMAIL.MGR_SSW1 at TSOD.LMIG.COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 09:20:14 EST From: Jose Francisco Pereira Martins Subject: Pedio culturing Larry Pyeatt asks about culturing Pedio. These bacteria are very fastitious so plain agar is not a good medium. I suggest you to use MRS agar or (if are sure not to have other competitive contaminants) APT agar. Jose Martins ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 22:29:21 -0500 From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman) Subject: p-lambic update Just an update on the p-lambic that I described a few weeks back. This has a 30% wheat (white spring wheat) with a variety of pale malts and 0.5 of D&W Aromatic malt thrown in for good measure. It had an SG of 1046 and was pitched with a complex mixture of starters (Hoegaarden yeast (250 ml), S. bayanus (5 ml), Boon Gueuze Dregs Starter, i.e. Brett + some bugs (50 ml), and Pediococcus damnosus. Cultures were all pitched on December 18th (1993) - I think. Fermentation temp has probably been consistently between 65-70F. Kraeusen subsided about 10 days or so ago. Took a gravity reading 4 days ago = 1002. Carbon dioxide is still being produced (the lock "pops" at a rate of about 1 "pop"/ 2-3 min.). No ropiness. No pellicle. How did it taste? Well...could be better :-), could be worse. On the up side: not completely devoid of body (yet); maybe some sweetness left; yes there is Brett character, both in nose and palate, not intense, but definitely noticeable as such - a little more would be nice (oh, didn't use any wood). Down side: a subtle harshness/astringency from the health food store "sweet" hops (uh, oh, could these have been Chinook?) - not overpowering bitterness though; no lactic sourness at this point, very little complexity. Expectations: Lactic sourness should greatly improve this once the pedio kicks in. The sourness may cover some of the hops astringency. A little more Brett character will make it interesting. Ultimately, the addition of some fruit extract may help cover some of the objectionable qualities (read: hop astringency), making it an interesting "fruit" beer. I'll let you know. Todd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 09:06:19 MST From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) Subject: abbey ale (ooooh noooo... not more non-lambic!!!) How about brett in abbey ale? Some samples of Chimay seem a wee horsey to me (then again, i may not really have "horsey" understood). aaron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 17:44:13 +0100 From: per.egnell at csb.ki.se (Per Egnell) Subject: Wyeast Wit Hi All I have grown the Wyeast Wit yeast from agar plates. My concern is that I find at least two different yeast strains. So the question is, have anybody else seen this? Is it my sample or shuold it be more than a single strain in the package. Per Per Egnell, Center for Biotechnolgy Karolinska Institute, NOVUM S-141 57 Huddinge, SWEDEN Tel: +46-8-608 91 60 Fax: +46-8-774 55 38 E-mail: per.egnell at cbt.ki.se ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:29 PST From: Kyle R Roberson Subject: L.delbrukii Does someone know of a source of L.delbrukii that I can use to sour my wit beer? Or, should I use Wyeast's new pedio culture (I ask only because it produces lactic too)? As an experiment, I'm culturing whatever lives in the pale malt (judging by the looks of it a lot live in there!). I'm going to check the pH and smell of it after 4-5 days of culturing. This is in an air-locked jug a la yeast starter. If I'm brave enough, I'll taste it. However, a little net wisdom at this moment would be sincerely appreciated. TIA, Kyle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 09:17:34 -0400 From: "Phillip R. Seitz" Subject: One dies in brewery explosion Without meaning anything untoward, Daniel F McConnell recounted his explosive experience with a pLambic. According to our source at Louvain-la-Neuve (henceforth LLN), there was an explosion last month at the Brasserie a Vapeur in Pipaix, Belgium. One person was killed. At the moment is is unclear whether they will reopen. The Brasserie a Vapeur made Saison de Pipaix, among other products. Sorry, I don't have any further details. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 09:13:11 -0400 From: "Phillip R. Seitz" Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #250 (January 07, 1994) I hope everyone will excuse me for digging into old material, but I'm just back home after two weeks, one of which was spent you-know-where. Anyway, back in the Mezazoic Era Jeff Frane commented: >Michael Jackson has changed his tune on Duvel, incidentally -- and about >time. His earlier books always claimed it was an all-malt beer, but in >the Beer Companion he mentions -- oh, by the way -- that they jack the >OG up 20 points or so "before fermentation" with dextrose! > >I split a 750 ml bottle last night with my wife, and it's obvious that >this is really how the beer is made -- it's way too dry for the gravity >for an all-malt beer, IMHO. > >Jackson also says that they are using two yeast strains, narrowed down >from multiple strains -- which DeClerck cultured from a >bottle-conditioned McEwan's beer. !! So much for "Belgian" ale yeast, >eh? Supposedly, the beer is fermented in separate batches (each with a >single strain) and then blended. > >Jackson also sez they use Saaz and a Styrian Golding for hopping. > >But do the Belgians give him the straight? > >- --Jeff The following is strictly gossip, but comes from impeccable sources: First, Belgian law apparently requires that at least five sevenths (5/7) of a beer's OG must be derived from malt. (Not sugar, not adjuncts). This may be a helpful parameter when working up recipes. Second, one of my friends was kind enough to set me up for a tour of the brewing program at Louvain-la-Neuve, which trains both brewers (1-year program) and Ph.D.s (6-year program). Our guide was in the latter, and HE was the one who pointed out that, where top fermenting beers are concerned, Belgian brewers never spill all their secrets. Unfortunately, these brewers are generally the smaller ones, so there's less research in their area. But I'll report on this soon. Sorry for the delay; more to come as my brain and time permit. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 12:08:52 -0500 (EST) From: Donovan Bodishbaugh Subject: Lactic acid There's been a lot of discussion on sour beers lately, and I know use of lactic acid has been widely discussed. Forgive me if this question has been addressed. Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic acid? Recipes which use lactate to sour finished beer seem to call for something like 20-30 ml per 5 gal. I've seen very small (like 4 ml) bottles for sale in homebrew supply stores for a couple of bucks, but I'm sure buying a liter or so would be a whole lot cheaper, and last a lifetime. Chemical supply sources I know of are strictly lab use, and tend to freak out when you mention food grade chemicals. Suggestions / experiences would be greatly appreciated. Rick Bodishbaugh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 10:05:14 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Lactic acid Rick writes: > There's been a lot of discussion on sour beers lately, and I know use of > lactic acid has been widely discussed. Forgive me if this question has > been addressed. Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic > acid? I bought mine through a local pharmacy at a cost of $20 for 16 oz. You'll probably have to order it through the pharmacist and answer a couple of questions about your reasons for wanting it. Some people use it for wart burning, and they just want to make sure you know how caustic it is. I think Alternative Beverage sells 4 oz. bottles for a reaonable price, but I don't have their catalog handy. One note - most Belgian-style beers that have lactic or acetic sourness, such as wits (to some extent) and Oud Bruins, are also dry. While sourness can be added with the acid, that doesn't give the dryness of a true lactic fermentation. I've experimented with adding lactobacillus with several of my wits, making beers that were extremely sour to some that had only a slight sourness. Now I generally add the culture after the gravity has dropped to about 1.020. The yeast alone would give a final gravity of about 1.014, but with the lactobacillus, I'm able to drop it down to 1.010 to get the dryness and what I think is a decent level of sourness. Does this seem like a reaonable approach? Scott - -- ======================================================================== Scott Bickham bickham at msc.cornell.edu ========================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 10:16:47 -0700 From: Steve Dempsey Subject: Re: lactic acid Full-Name: Steve Dempsey In Lambic Digest #262 Donovan Bodishbaugh writes: >Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic >acid? Recipes which use lactate to sour finished beer seem to call for >something like 20-30 ml per 5 gal. I've seen very small (like 4 ml) >bottles for sale in homebrew supply stores for a couple of bucks, but I'm >sure buying a liter or so would be a whole lot cheaper, and last a >lifetime. Anyone selling 4ml does not know what they are doing and is ripping you off. Beverage People has a 4oz (120ml) size for about $6. This is probably what you saw on the shelf; if not, BP's order line is +1 800 544 1867. I've been able to order 500ml size from out of state chemical distributor and from local lab supply retailer. Either way, they pass on $5 hazardous materials handling charge (UPS), which makes it much less worthwhile to order small quantities. For me, 500ml is about a 3 year supply; I've done 2 or 3 soured beers with lactic and normally used it to acidify mash and/or sparge water. I've since moved to phosphoric acid for brewing and use lactic only for souring finished beers. BTW, USP phosphoric is available from George Hrouda Assoc., +1 909 924 7342; 500ml was $16+S&H last time I ordered. >Chemical supply sources I know of are strictly lab use, and >tend to freak out when you mention food grade chemicals. Few deal in USP grade chemicals; you just have to find one that does. I went to my library where they have on microfiche phone books from all over the country. I pulled the yellow pages from major cities in neighboring states and looked for chemical suppliers advertising retail. Some states prohibit industrial chemicals by mail (CA), and some suppliers won't do small orders. But a couple of phone calls later I had ordered what I wanted. ================================ Engineering Network Services Steve Dempsey Colorado State University steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu Fort Collins, CO 80523 ================================ +1 303 491 0630 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 15:33:57 PST From: klein at physics.Berkeley.EDU (David Klein) Subject: wheat In preperation for my first lambic, I've been re-examining Guillards book, and cant figure something out. The problem is in the use of unmalted wheat. When he first describes the mash process he says the wheat (berries) are added to the mashtun and a normal multistep decoction is done. He says a few breweries have done the doublemash american style mash as well. Yet when he get to the homebrew section, he says tat if you use wheat berries (as opposed to rolled wheat) you have to do a double mash or boil the wheat first to solubilize the starches. These two techniques seem to give different beers, the solubilized starches will be broken down in the mash giving more sugar, while if one does a normal mash with a 200 F sparge, they will get the long starch chains extracted, which he claims is desirible in the final product (I know that even if you boil the wheat you will get these starches, but I am thinking about quantity. It just seems to me that a homebrewed lambic should use the extremely bizzare mashing style of the lambic brewers (1 gallon water per pound and multi temperature decoction) for it gives a different beer. Which is the most reasonable way to make a drinkable, traditional, reasonable extract lambic? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 15:52:07 -0500 (EST) From: btg!rgarvin at uunet.UU.NET (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630)) Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #262 (January 22, 1994) Donovan Bodishbaugh asks: > There's been a lot of discussion on sour beers lately, and I know use of > lactic acid has been widely discussed. Forgive me if this question has > been addressed. Does someone know of a good source for food grade lactic > acid? I had pursued this recently. The only retail source that I have found for Lactic acid is James Page Brewing Company (1-800-347-4042) in Minneapolis. 4 oz 88% for $4.95. I have spoken to my normal suppliers and it seems that none of the main homebrew distributors carry it. The only availability is in 55 gallon drums. While I am sure that I could find an alternative supplier with a bit of work this may not be necessary. A local DC retailer thinks that he has convinced JD Carlson to repackage and distribute it. If this happens it will be generally available through the normal channnels. Maybe we can get phosphoric acid next? Cheers, Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 12:35:14 -0400 From: "Phillip R. Seitz" Subject: More on lactic acid Just a few comments: 1) I got my lactic acid from the Malt Shop, which is located somewhere out there in the middle. 2) While lactic acid does work to add some tartness to beer, be aware that it takes a fair bit of time for the flavors to blend. My white beers took, oh, about two months to really taste just tart and not like beer with lactic acid in it. 3) Scott Bickham commented that many oud bruin beers are dry. I tend to disagree, though the level of sweetness varies. I know that Liefmans deliberately sweetens their beer before packaging, and tasting Felix suggests the same. Of course, this requires filtering before the addition of sugar. However, I'd agree that the prediminant flavor characteristic is a fruity sourness--and boy, do I love it! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 16:36:37 -0500 From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman) Subject: p-lambic erratum/aroma/starch I need to make a revision concerning my recent posting on the progress of my p-lambic, in light of the fact that my hydrometer has been grossly out of calibration. I indicated that my OG was about 1046. Although there is no way for me to go back and take another reading, I would guess that it was probably 1052-1056. This is actually what I was shooting for. I reported that the current gravity is 1002 after about 1 month. No way. Having rechecked the gravity with a properly calibrated hydrometer, I can report that the gravity is actually 1016. Big difference (if you have a hydrometer with a paper insert indicating the scale, note that dropping it into its container will cause the paper to slide down gradually - Gee whiz!). So the gravity is still higher than I would have expected. The Saccharomyces stage of fermentation seems to have subsided. Using Hoegaarden yeast ,I was expecting a lower gravity. However, the decline in activity may actually coincide with the decline in air temperature in the closet (this is the "sleepy" yeast after all). So, the fermentation may pick up with some warmer weather (this weekend). A final gravity of 1002 would not be unexpected, perhaps not so soon though. Aaron Birenboim has asked me to comment on aroma. The main concern here is that the Boon dregs (and thus starter) contain at least a couple different bugs. One may in fact be a type of enteric. Let me digress for a moment - the presence of enterics in the dregs may be indicative of Mr. Boon's blending process. It is commonly mentioned that the enterics should not survive the long aging process. However, they may be present if very young lambic is blended to make the Gueuze, which is likely. Still, no S. cerevisiae is present in the dregs (at least mine). Anyway, one of the bugs thrives in the presence of dextrose and will form a thin, white film on the top of the medium. With a little bit of time in the presence of dextrose, a very strong fecal odor is produced (yuck). This odor essentially replaces the acetaldehyde odor (cut green apples) that seems to be produced by the Brett early on. In malt extract, the film and the fecal odors are not present. Based on these observations, I felt that it was safe to pitch the dregs culture at the beginning of the ferment. Even if the bugs produced bad aromas, I felt that they would subside with time. Aaron's earlier observations, coupled with mine, suggest that pitching this culture with the addition of dextrose at bottling time may cause some problems. I haven't reached the point of deciding how to prime (dextrose vs. wort), but I am inclined to brew a small batch of 30% wheat wort and blend some time before bottling (this could also prove troublesome for obvious reasons). So, currently the only noticeable aroma is that contributed by the Brett (which in this case is not necessarily acetaldehyde). I really don't know what contribution these bugs make to the finished Boon Gueuze. I have wondered whether they contribute to the strong mercaptan odor that some have noticed upon opening a bottle of Boon Gueuze. The bottle from which the dregs came initially had a very strong mercaptan odor - so much so that a friend with whom I was sharing the bottle and I thought that it was light struck. I believe that others have commented on this quality in the past. So, now I am waiting for the gravity to drop about 12-14 points. I also want to see some considerable souring. I will probably avoid dextrose, unless I am feeling really gutsy (and lazy). I'll let you know. Dave Klein writes: >These two techniques seem to give different beers, the solubilized starches >will be broken down in the mash giving more sugar, while if one does a >normal mash with a 200 F sparge, they will get the long starch chains >extracted, which he claims is desirible in the final product (I know >that even if you boil the wheat you will get these starches, but I am >thinking about quantity. If you want long starch molecules, are you assuming that you can add all of the right microbes that can utilize starch as a fermentable? I used the wheat preboil and a double decoction of sorts following Guinard. I think that he suggests sparging at 180F or so to extract residual starches. My understanding is that Brett can work pretty well on some of the more complex carbohydrates, but other yeasts and bugs that are not readily available may be required to break down the all of the starches. Additionally, you might consider whether the presence of a large number of carbohydrates that cannot be fermented by S. cerevisiae may increase characteristics produced by Brett (good or bad depending on what you want). Maybe, you could obtain some residual starch by adding a small amount of barley at mashout. A hot sparge could be used to extract the starch. Todd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Oud Bruin Phil sez: > 3) Scott Bickham commented that many oud bruin beers are dry. I tend > to disagree, though the level of sweetness varies. I know that > Liefmans deliberately sweetens their beer before packaging, and tasting > Felix suggests the same. Of course, this requires filtering before the > addition of sugar. However, I'd agree that the prediminant flavor > characteristic is a fruity sourness--and boy, do I love it! After I posted that, I thought I'd do some research, so I bought a bottle of Goudenband. I have a beer fermenting that I want to turn into the sour brown style, so I'm trying to culture some of the critters in the bottom of the bottle. The cork was dated 1991, so I don't think I have much chance of success. Anyway, back to the beer. It was a lot sweeter than I remembered and leaves enough sugars on the lips to almost make them stick together. Hmm, maybe this style would work best with lactic acid instead of lactobacillus ;-) I checked on my pLambic yesterday. It hadn't changed at all in 2 weeks - the gravity was still about 1.009, and to give it chance to be ready for spring competitions, I added the cherries. A few hours later I had to replace the airlock with a blowoff tube, so the yeast and bacteria are still active. I wonder if I'm patient enough to brew this style ;-) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:19:57 -0800 (PST) From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) Subject: The Lambic Mash In Lambic Digest #263, David Klein mused: > The problem is in the use of unmalted wheat. When he first describes the > mash process he says the wheat (berries) are added to the mashtun and a > normal multistep decoction is done. He says a few breweries have done > the doublemash american style mash as well. > > Yet when he get to the homebrew section, he says tat if you use wheat > berries (as opposed to rolled wheat) you have to do a double mash or > boil the wheat first to solubilize the starches. That's indeed the case. > These two techniques seem to give different beers, the solubilized starches > will be broken down in the mash giving more sugar, while if one does a > normal mash with a 200 F sparge, they will get the long starch chains > extracted, which he claims is desirible in the final product (I know > that even if you boil the wheat you will get these starches, but I am > thinking about quantity. > > It just seems to me that a homebrewed lambic should use the extremely > bizzare mashing style of the lambic brewers (1 gallon water per pound > and multi temperature decoction) for it gives a different beer. There's a detail that shouldn't be overlooked: the Belgian brewers using such extremely thin mashes are also using direct steam injection for mashout. Therefore, the mash is so thin not because they necessarily want it to be, but because that's what happens when you inject steam. > Which is the most reasonable way to make a drinkable, traditional, reasonable > extract lambic? I think that perhaps the point that Guinard didn't make quite forcefully enough is that what happens from pitching on is a much greater determinant of the end product than are the earlier steps. I've tasted quite reasonable faux-lambics that have been made from extract worts, or using malted wheat, flaked wheat, American-style mixed mashes and double decoction mashes. I generally lean toward this last, but have seen nothing so far to cause me to believe that using some other approach will necessarily be a handicap. As long as the wort is light-bodied, rich in fermentable extract, but reasonably free of malt or hop flavors, you have a promising beginning. = Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell = = malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 = = If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, = = Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) = ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 11:02 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Fecalbier The very first beer labeled a "Gueuze" that I had the opportunity to taste was a St. Louis "Gueuze" which was probably a couple of years old. I got it at the Weinkeller in Berwyn, Illinois in February of 1992, but I'll bet that it spent at least a year or two in their cooler. The beer tasted like a basket of fruit, and I had to check a few times that it was not a fruit lambiek. It did have a decidedly fecal odor along with some horseyness and all those fruits. It took a little while to get used to, but I really enjoyed the beer overall. Subsequent bottles of this same beer have not had the horseyness or fecal aroma and the fruit was quite a bit less pronounced. Al. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 08:54:00 PST From: "SIMPSON, Mark (x-4378)" Subject: Fecal Brews??? Yummmm??? Hey Guys, This is WAY too advanced for me. "It did have a decidedly fecal odor along with some horseyness and all those fruits. It took a little while to get used to, but I really enjoyed the beer overall." Is this for real??? Am I missing something here??? Fecal??? Horsey??? Which end??? Please, someone send me a mug of Sierra Nevada PA, QUICK!!! TNFAEBCat (the-non-fecal-arome-enjoying-brew-cat) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 11:56:31 EDT From: VOLKER Subject: Liefman's? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu Subject: Re: Oud Bruin >After I posted that, I thought I'd do some research, so I bought a >bottle of Goudenband. I have a beer fermenting that I want to turn >into the sour brown style, so I'm trying to culture some of the critters >in the bottom of the bottle. The cork was dated 1991, so I don't think >I have much chance of success. ?? Is it my imagination or did I read here that Liefman's actually paseurizes their beers? Or was it just the ones for the US? Hmm... Volker "remembering finding Goudenband for $1.99 a bottle, mislabeled" Stewart radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 9:04:00 EST From: Dick Herring Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #266 (January 26, 1994) > > > Hey Guys, > > This is WAY too advanced for me. > > > "It did have a decidedly fecal odor along with some horseyness and all those > fruits. It took > a little while to get used to, but I really enjoyed the beer overall." > > > Is this for real??? Am I missing something here??? Fecal??? Horsey??? > Which end??? Gueuzes are like life .. you must get by the s**t to taste the sweetness. Pass me the Listerine quick! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 09:38:01 -0400 From: "Phillip Seitz" Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #266 (January 26, 1994) Re fecal brews: >Is this for real??? Am I missing something here??? Fecal??? Horsey??? > Which end??? > >Please, someone send me a mug of Sierra Nevada PA, QUICK!!! Actually, fecal brew goes quite nicely with a slice of wheat bread smeared with cream cheese and dotted with sliced radishes and fresh black pepper. Of course, it IS a specialized taste. :-) On Liefman's from VOLKER : >?? Is it my imagination or did I read here that Liefman's actually >paseurizes their beers? Or was it just the ones for the US? Hmm... Cold filtered, NEVER heat pasteurized! :-) (Really!) By the way, is Philippe Perpete out there? If so, would you care to comment on fecal aromas and the sour/sweet balance in oud bruins? Phil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 10:31:00 CST From: David H Klatte Subject: Oud Brun (sp?) questions Hello all, I am planning to attempt a pseudo sour brown ale. I intend to use the grain bill outlined in the Belgian Ale book (it might have been the Lambic book) from the Classic Beer Style series. But I was thinking of doing a sour mash as outlined in the recent Zymurgy. I have no idea how much to sour mash to get the appropriate level of sourness for the style, though. Has anyone done anything like this? How does 50% of the pale malt sound? Or am I going about this entirely the wrong way? Target sourness would be in the Goudenband- Rodenbach range, I guess. I await the wisdom of the Net. And while I have your ear, so to speak, is there a FAQ file that deals with the peculiarities of culturing for plambics? Thanks, David ) David H. Klatte The University of Chicago, Department of ( ) Compuserve:70732,1146 Biochemistry and Molecular Biology ( ) dhklatte at midway.uchicago.edu ( ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:52:07 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Crowe Subject: first time Dear lambic brewers, I am starting on my first lambic beer batch in the next few weeks and I would like some input on the lactic fermentation process. I plan to use a culture of Lactobacillus delbruckii to do a lactic ferment of the "mash" for a few days before I boil it . I am using malt extracts for about 70% of the malt in the final product and am using flaked unmalted wheat as well. My questions are: 1) should I include all of the grain and extracts in the lactic ferment? 2) should I do the lactic ferment first, or add the L. delbruckii to the yeast ferment (I will use Brettanomyces lambicus)? I am afraid that I will produce an unstable beer if I don't kill the bacteria before I do the ferment, but this method was reccommended to me by the distributor that sold me the cultures. 3) how do I culture the L. delbruckii and B. lambicus to maintain pure strains? I work in a laboratory, so I should be able to do even the most outrageous somersaults to maintain the cultures. I just need to know what to do. 4) I am trying to create a cranberry lambic, do you think that 10 lbs of cranberries is sufficient? can they be frozen or must they be fresh? crushed or not? ARe 15 minutes in the wort at 70 degrees C.enough to get good flavor without getting pectins? I haveordered the Classic Beer Styles Lambic issue, but it has not arrived yet. Please answer any of my questions that are not addressed in that issue. Thanks, Alex Crowe crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:00:32 -0600 From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss) Subject: Re: beginner questions Alex Crowe writes: > I am starting on my first lambic beer batch in the next few weeks and I >would like some input on the lactic fermentation process. I plan to use a >culture of Lactobacillus delbruckii to do a lactic ferment of the "mash" for a >few days before I boil it . I am using malt extracts for about 70% of the malt >in the final product and am using flaked unmalted wheat as well. My questions are: >1) should I include all of the grain and extracts in the lactic ferment? >2) should I do the lactic ferment first, or add the L. delbruckii to the yeast >ferment (I will use Brettanomyces lambicus)? I am afraid that I will produce an >unstable beer if I don't kill the bacteria before I do the ferment, but this >method was reccommended to me by the distributor that sold me the cultures. >3) how do I culture the L. delbruckii and B. lambicus to maintain pure strains? >I work in a laboratory, so I should be able to do even the most outrageous >somersaults to maintain the cultures. I just need to know what to do. >4) I am trying to create a cranberry lambic, do you think that 10 lbs of >cranberries is sufficient? can they be frozen or must they be fresh? crushed or >not? ARe 15 minutes in the wort at 70 degrees C.enough to get good flavor without >getting pectins? 1) you definitiely need a brettanomyces culture, IMHO (and in guinard's, you also need pediococcus, but he doesn't mention delbruckii - that is used in berliner weisse) 2) forget the sour mash and let the bacteria do the work in the secondary. 3) "a few days" is not long enough to culture brettanomyces (or pediococcus) really no need to worry about any of the cultures being totally "pure". 4) why sanitize the cranberries at all? just make sure you add them after the primary ferment, so that any bacteria the contribute do not achieve sufficient number to produce too much sourness. crushing shouldn't matter (crush half if it eases your mind). 10 lb of cherries is about right, you need more than 10 lb of peaches, not sure about cranberries. 5) be patient (as in several months to a year), don't disturb anything after the primary is done & you've added the fruit. 6) whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary is still up in the air (at least in the collective wisdom of this digest) bb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 94 10:49:03 PST From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: CA readers only... Hi, I'm looking for anyone who knows a distributor (not a local supermarket beer clerk) in California _well_. Please send me e-mail if you think you fall in this category. --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 08:10:55 MST From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) Subject: Primary? Brian Bliss said: >whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary... Secondary??? Is the collected wisdon calling for a secondary? I heard that the traditional lambic brewers go coolship to barrell to bottle. no secondary. What do you do, Mike? Martin? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 10:24:17 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Crowe Subject: ecology HI folks, Iwant to thank everyone for being so helpful with this hapless beginner. Your comments will all be taken into account when I start my brew (I have to wait for a carboy to become available in the house). It seems to me that there is in fact very little that every one does in common (at least you all add water to the wort). THis brings me to the subject of the ecology of all the organisms used to make a lambic. It seems that what happens is that there are many levels of fermentation going on in the same batch and that the various organisms will "bloom" at various times. Does this correlate with sugar usage? For example, does the initial S. cerevisiae ferment die down when the monosaccharides are all utilised to be followed by the Brettanomyces strains as they begin to break down the complex carbohydrates in the unmalted wheat. DO the bacteria strains utilise different sugars than the yeast, or is there a grand feeding frenzy on the glucose and maltose? I've encountered a lot of literature regarding utilization of D-xylose by lactic fermenting bacteria, is this an issue for lambics or a more general food related issue (it seems that there is a lot of interest in lactic fermeneters in keeping food fresh, the lactate must be inhibiting the botulism causing organisms.)? The bacteria of choice seems to be Pediococcus for lambics and lactobacillus for Berliner wiesse. How about the lactobacilli that are used in yogurt production, can they be used in beers? I look forward to your comments. Alex crowe at medusa.bioc.aecom.yu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:32:52 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Busch Subject: Secondary? > From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) > Subject: Primary? > Brian Bliss said: > >whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary... > > Secondary??? Is the collected wisdon calling for a secondary? > I heard that the traditional lambic brewers go coolship to barrell to > bottle. no secondary. What do you do, Mike? Martin? > Just a data point: At Oud Beersel they do primary in a large SS tank, then cask it for a few years. I seem to recall this also at Cantillion, but thats going back a few years. I do remember the ouzing barrels at Cantillion being sealed with paraffin. Jim Busch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 08:39:22 -0800 (PST) From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) Subject: About Secondaries ... In Lambic Digest #271, Aaron Birenboim replied to Brian Bliss: > Brian Bliss said: > >whether to add the pedio & brett in the primary or secondary... > > Secondary??? Is the collected wisdon calling for a secondary? > I heard that the traditional lambic brewers go coolship to barrell to > bottle. no secondary. What do you do, Mike? Martin? The commercial producers do go from coolship to barrel, but then rack to another barrel after "primary" fermentation is done. They do this probably for pretty much the same reasons that we do: to leave behind some of the crud. We have perhaps more reason to do so, as the overnight stay in the coolship drops out the trub very efficiently, so the beer going into the barrels is quite clear. Nevertheless, it's going to be around a long time, so another racking is a good idea. Another reason for them to rack is that after the first and most active stages of fermentation are over they wish to close the barrel to minimize mechanical damage to the pellicle, as well as possible contamination. To do this they place about 4 plies of corduroy over the rectangular bung, then wedge it in place with a billet of wood. Primary fermentation is done with the bung open and the froth pouring out and running down the sides of the barrel, and as the foam dries it forms a hard but porous closure over the bung, which would have to be removed in order to use the more reliable cloth closure. That would be very difficult to do without contaminationg the beer, unless the beer were first racked to other barrels. I've tried several variations on the "when to pitch" theme, including pitching the Pedio & Brett separately in the secondary, together in the secondary, and together along with the original yeast, and am really not convinced that it makes a major difference. Others may well have had a different experience. - Martin = Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell = = malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 = = If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, = = Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) = ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 8:29:38 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Liddil Subject: BJCP Exam Offered The Old Pueblo Homebrewers will be offering The Beer Judge Certification Program Exam On May 7, 1994 at 10:00 am The exam is tentatively scheduled to be offered at 2332 E. Adams St. Tucson, AZ 85719 The fee is $50 for first time takers and $30 for retakes. The NON-refundable fee must be recieved to the address listed above by April 1, 1994. Please make checks payable to "Old Pueblo Homebrewers". If you have any questions feel free to contact me via e-mail or call (602)881-8768. jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 94 08:04:15 PST From: art at art.md.interlink.com Subject: faq send faq from lambic ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) Subject: Belgian Candi Sugar I discovered today that F H Steinbart, here in Portland (Beer Heaven) Oregon, has gotten a stock of dark Belgian candi sugar (I believe the color is somewhere around 250). Price is something like $2.95/lb. Be advised that this is granulated, rather than rock sugar, but my Belgian correspondent has assured me in the past that this is the same stuff and available in an array of forms in Belgium. I couldn't sniff the sugar I saw at Steinbart's, cause me nose is stuffed up, but I was assured it had almost no aroma -- which is good, because it means that it probably is the right stuff: no molasses. F H Steinbart is at (503) 232-8793. 234 SE 12th, Portland OR 97214 Tell 'em Jeff sent you. Standard yadda yadda disclaimers apply -- although I do teach a beginning homebrew class there. - --Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 14:04:09 EST From: Mark Stickler Subject: Unmalted Wheat Help! Does anyone know of source for unmalted wheat? I would prefer cooked, rolled wheat flakes but would settle for just about anything at this point. No malters or Homebrew retailers that I know of can get it. Even the local "feed store" says they won't have any until summer. Any help would be greatly appreciated, this is holding up my pLambic! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 11:13:36 PST From: klein at physics.Berkeley.EDU (David Klein) Subject: bittering oranges when I went to a new grocery store (new for me that is) I made an interesting discovery, fresh seville oranges imported from spain. these oranges were advertised as sour oranges, and had a hard bumpy orange peel. I was wondering if anyone knew their relation to belgian bittering oranges (which are also from spain I beleive) (caricao (dont recall exact spelling)) and if these wound act as a good substitute. I've been preparing for a white, and have just not been able to find bitter orange peel anywhere, and would like to know if anyone has had sucess with these. dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 94 10:09:14 -0400 From: "Phillip Seitz" Subject: Belgian brewing ingredients Jeff (Where's my beer?) Frane writes: >I discovered today that F H Steinbart, here in Portland (Beer Heaven) >Oregon, has gotten a stock of dark Belgian candi sugar (I believe the >color is somewhere around 250). Price is something like $2.95/lb. Be While I can't speak for the coloring capacities of dark candi, I can say that the price here seems reasonable. In Belgian supermarkets I pay about $1.50 (50 Belgian francs) for a pound. Add some shipping and... Mark Stickler asks where to get unmalted wheat: Your local health food store or food coop will definitely have it. Ask for wheat berries. David Klein asks: >when I went to a new grocery store (new for me that is) I made an interesting >discovery, fresh seville oranges imported from spain. > >these oranges were advertised as sour oranges, and had a hard bumpy orange >peel. I was wondering if anyone knew their relation to belgian bittering >oranges (which are also from spain I beleive) (caricao (dont recall exact >spelling)) and if these wound act as a good substitute. > >I've been preparing for a white, and have just not been able to find bitter >orange peel anywhere, and would like to know if anyone has had sucess with >these. Curacao orange is greenish gray; this doesn't sound like the same thing. Keep in mind that curacao orange peel has little or no orange flavor--it's all bitterness. You can order curacao orange peel from the Frozen Wort in Massachusetts. They've had some ads in recent issues of zymurgy. If you can't find their phone number, send me a direct E-mail. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 12:00:52 EST From: "Stephen C. Anthony" Subject: 1st time Lambic After a recent trip to Belgium, and visiting Cantillon and Ould Beersel, I got the urge to try to make a lambic. So, I infused 2# wheat with 4# of light malt and boiled with a couple of ounces of hops. I had purchased a vial of the peddiococcus (sp?) yeast and to proof it, I boiled up a pint of water with a cup of malt for 10 minutes. I cooled it down by imersing the pot in some cold water and when it was cool enough, added the contents of the vial of yeast. I let that sit covered for 3 days, and when I added it to the beer, it had no appreciable signs of fermentation. No foam of any kind. It did, however, have a slightly butterscotch smell. So, into the beer it went. It's been over a week now, and I still don't see any appreciable signs of fermentation. I should ammend that to say that perhaps a bubble or two from the air lock per day. But other than that, nothing obvious. So, is it time to worry? Anyone else have any experience with this? I've been brewing for 10 years but this is my first Lambic. Thanks for any thoughts/encouragement. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 94 09:16:14 -0800 From: eurquhar at sfu.ca Subject: oranges Seville or marmalade or sour oranges are extremely close to the real curacao oranges which was planted a few hundred years ago by the spanairds on the island of Curacao near the northern end of south America. By them now as they have a short season. They will freeze nicely. We get alot of these oranges in B.C.which are grown in Arizona. Eric Urquhart (eurquhar at sfu.ca) Centre for Pest Management, Dept. of Biological Sciences Simon Fraser University, Burnaby , B.C. Canada V5A 1S6 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:14:05 -0600 (CST) From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead) Subject: Le Fruit Defendu I've been trying for some time to find a recipe for Le Fruit Defendu. I was wondering if anyone out there has experimented with recipes for it. Also, on my last trip to Belgium, I was fortunate enough to try two beers made by the Brewers from Esen. They were called "Arabier" and "Oerbier". Has anyone tried formulating either of these? Thanks alot, Ted ------------------------------