From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Wed Jun 1 03:13:29 1994 Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA16290 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Wed, 1 Jun 94 03:13:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id AAA08286 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:30:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199406010630.AAA08286 at longs.lance.colostate.edu> Reply-To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here) Errors-To: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here) To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Subject: Lambic Digest #358 (June 01, 1994) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:30:08 -0600 Lambic Digest #358 Wed 01 June 1994 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Lambic Digest #354 (May 27, 1994) (KLASSEN) Chips, Both Wood and Cow (Martin Lodahl) Sorry about the reposts ("DEV::FVH") Re: Lambic Digest #353: Origins of "bommel" (Richard Akerboom) Re: Bon Appetit (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) more references (Michael Sharp) Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the subject or body of your message (to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 08:18:02 -0400 (EDT) From: KLASSEN at BIOMED.MED.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #354 (May 27, 1994) The Rodenbach Grand Cru that I purchased this winter (importer is in NY State) did not have the foil or paper wrap and came in a 4-pack. If it was classic (blended) Rodenbach, I can't say because it was BAD, I.e. totally unpalatable. And I have enjoyed many Rodies in the past, incl. a rather tart 1970's blend at the Cafe Kulminator in Antwrp. But in case you still doubt me I have 3 of the offending bottles left as testimony to what I say. Anybody who can chug them down with a smile on their face can sample a hand -carried paper-wrapped Grand Cru on me--you just have to swing by my place to take me up on this offer! H. Klassen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 06:56:55 -0700 (PDT) From: malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) Subject: Chips, Both Wood and Cow In Lambic Digest #357, Rob Thomas mused: > What it said was: > Fermentation in wooden barrels or > wood-coated tanks > I didn't think about it at first, but what is the general > concensus about "or wood-coated tanks". > Well, presumably the wood is there to support infection > but the various beasts. So far so good. But what about > the microaerophilic environment of the barrel? i'm not > sure I can visualise the tanks very well, but presumably > there is little O2 exchange if any. Do we assume then > that wood chips in a glass fermenter will do just as well, > so long as we reuse them religiously? > Any thoughts out there? Yes. I wasted time chasing the thought that the magic of barrels was the low-level gas permeability before tasting the Kriek that remains the best synthetic lambic I've had to date. I by chance met the brewer later, and learned that it had been fermented entirely in glass, but with French oak chips added to the carboy. They were not re-used, but a single application. Could the value of the wood be as a substrate, or could it be that the beasties whose efforts we're trying to encourage have a serious need for tannins? > Oh, and I can identify with Mike when his daughter said > it smelled like "all the cows in Belgium farted at the > same time". My wife thought it had developed (sic) from > diapers to cow dung. Personally I think she was being ating > little harsh (but then it's MY baby!) That was my daughter (Ms. Mouth) who said that. That's one of the seldom-discussed hazards of this pursuit ... And Donovan Bodishbaugh addressed turbid mashing: > ... From Mike's diagram, it looks like the three turbid mash > decoctions are added back together at the end of the mash schedule. Martin > added them immediately to help boost to the next rest temp. Comments? Dr. Mussche said (I don't recall whether it was at the presentation itself, the party afterward, or another party a few days before) that the purpose of this mash process is to maximize tannins and unconverted starches in the fermenting wort. What "the other Martin" was doing, then, was more like a thin-mash decoction, and wouldn't have achieved those aims. The implication of that, though, is that this mash scheme washes an utterly horrendous volume of water through the mash, unless the abstractions and additions are very small indeed. This won't be an easy nut to crack. - Martin = Martin Lodahl Systems Analyst, Capacity Planning, Pacific*Bell = = malodah at pacbell.com Sacramento, CA USA 916.972.4821 = = If it's good for ancient Druids runnin' nekkid through the wuids, = = Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me! (Unk.) = ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 94 09:46:00 CST From: "DEV::FVH" Subject: Sorry about the reposts My apologies to Micheal Sharp and Martin Wilde for reposting their original posts. I was intending to ask the same question as Rick Bodishbaugh but sent the wrong file instead. Rick saw the same thing, is it better to wait until all of the takings are done before adding back(as in the drawing) or to take, heat and then add back before going on(as Martin did)? Once again, Sorry Dirk Houser ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 May 94 08:09:47 EST From: boomer at sylsoft.com (Richard Akerboom) Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #353: Origins of "bommel" In Regards to your letter <199405260630.AAA06295 at longs.lance.colostate.edu>: > > (Aside, perhaps one of the Flemish-speakers might comment on the origin of > 'bommel'. I looked in a Flemish dictionary; it showed bommel as relating to > hommel and also to trains, but the etymology was a little beyond me). Don't know any Flemish, but in German there is a word "Bummel" which means a stroll, as in wander around. It can also be used in a phrase meaning to go on a spree. Either or both of these meanings seem to fit. Rich - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Akerboom Domain: boomer at sylsoft.com or akerboom at dartmouth.edu Sylvan Software uucp: dartvax!sylsoft!boomer Mechanic St. Phone: 802-649-2231 P. O. Box 566 FAX: 802-649-2238 Norwich, VT 05055 USA ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 94 15:35:00 GMT From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Re: Bon Appetit Dave writes: >Just wanted to let everyone know that we're not the only ones out there trying >to educate the public. In the June 1994 issue of 'Bob Appetit' there's an >article entitled "Bold Belgian Beers." It's interesting in the fact it gives >the layman some very basic information on the various Belgian beers. Kind of >refreshing to see. Anyway, check it out if you're interested (and don't get >too >upset when they say Lindemans is one of the "best" lambics--it's a start, at >least). Perhaps, but as many of us that can, should write to them and straighten- out the editors. It should be pointed out, for example, that Lindemans is very tasty, but not very traditional and that not all Lambics are created equal. This, if for no other reason than to warn an unsuspecting buyer that happens to come upon a Boon or Cantillon and expects it to be syrupy sweet. Perhaps even a few letters would be published, further educating the public. Al. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 May 94 09:54:32 PDT From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: more references Hi, Over the weekend (Sat, LD #355) Rob Thomas provided a list of references on lambic brewing. I've got a few to add to his list: Microbiological aspects of spontaneous wort fermentation in the production of lambic and gueuze, D. Van Oevelen, M. Spaepen, P. timmermans, H. Verachtert, J. Inst. Brew., 1977, pp. 356-360 Fatty acids and esters produced during the spontaneous fermentation of lambic and gueuze, M. Spaepen, D. Van Oevelen, H. Verachtert, J. Inst. Brew., 1978, pp. 278-282 Esterase Activity in the genus Brettanomyces, M. Spaepen, H. Verachtert, J. Inst. Brew., 1982, pp. 11-17 Identification of lambic superattenuating micro-organisms by the use of selective antibiotics, H.M.C. Shantha Kumara, H. Verachtert, J. Inst. Brew., 1991, pp. 181-185 Characteristics of Enterobacteriaceae involved in lambic brewing, Ensaf Dawoud, PhD Thesis, Katholieke Universiteit te Leuven, February 1987 Microbiology and biochemistry of lambic beer overattenuation, H.M. Chandana Shantha Kumara, PhD Thesis, Katholieke Universiteit te Leuven, November 1990 Dextrinases from lambic organisms: Brettanomyces lambicus and Lactovacillus brevis isolation and characterization, Frank Maris, PhD Thesis, Katholieke Universiteit te Leuven, 1990 (please excuse the format) --Mike ------------------------------ End of Lambic Digest ************************ -------