From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Thu May 26 03:12:59 1994 Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA01214 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Thu, 26 May 94 03:12:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id AAA06295 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Thu, 26 May 1994 00:30:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199405260630.AAA06295 at longs.lance.colostate.edu> Reply-To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here) Errors-To: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here) To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Subject: Lambic Digest #353 (May 26, 1994) Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 00:30:08 -0600 Lambic Digest #353 Thu 26 May 1994 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Contents: de Bierbommel (Stephen George) Re: What's in Rodenbach bottles (Dave Resch) Rodenbach/comments on Brett sources (Todd Gierman) What's in your Rodenbach (Jay Hersh) Wooden barrels RIMS/Rodenbach/Aeonbrau (Michael Sharp) Factoids (Michael Sharp) Rodenbach Woes (C.R. Saikley) Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the subject or body of your message (to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 May 94 07:11:04 EDT From: Stephen George <74363.26 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: de Bierbommel Greetings all, I am a Digest lurker about to come into light...I've been living and working in Antwerp for the last month, and thought I'd relate the occurances of last weekend. This past Sunday marked National Beer Day, and with it the first-ever Bierbommel - a chartered train devoted exclusively to the celebration (and consumption) of Belgian beer! The 500 meter, 1200 passenger train criss- crossed Flanders from 9 AM to 11 PM, affording all the chance to sample the wares of 17 brewers (24 different beers in all), while safely riding through the pleasant countryside. The train was organized by the Objectieve Bierproevers, a national beer consumer's group (I've seen them mentioned here before). This year marks the group's 10th Anniversary, and to celebrate, they brought us the Bierbommel. The brewers were organized in two mail cars; with another 8 passenger cars for the participants. The whistle-stops across Flanders provided convenient restocking points for the more popular products. A non-smoking car would have been a plus...Restrooms were, surprisingly, not a problem! Enthusiastic passengers must have camped out in some instances. The train was nearly full by the time we boarded in Antwerp at 10:30 AM. Many seemed to have travelled together with their entire local 'proever groups. There were also a few renegade hawkers and wayward gaijin aboard. Among the fare on offer were familiar products from some of the larger breweries, some lesser-known smaller brands and a few reportedly experimental or soon-to-be-unveiled products. Some of the high/low lights (all beers were draft from (metal) kegs, 40 BeF for 25 cl): The two 'lambic' products: De Troch Faro and Timmermans Blanche-Wit (Lambic); the Faro, 2.5 vol% and not very beer-y; certainly didn't seem lambic. The Blanche-Wit. Definitely tasted witty; 3.5 vol%. Seems they've given the wit treatment to a lambic product. Liked the product as a wit, but it didn't scream 'LAMBIC' either. Du bocq La Gauloise Blonde - an excellent flavor. I couldn't put my finger on it exactly; sort of herbal/woody. Villers Fumee d'Anvers - this was apparently a test venue for this smoke beer. Call it what you will, I didn't think it had much taste at all. I guess one wouldn't complain about 'Liquid Smoke'. Van Eecke Hommelbier - 'hop beer'. It was definitely hoppy; I like a well hopped beer; the aftertaste on this one seemed a little overkill. (Aside, perhaps one of the Flemish-speakers might comment on the origin of 'bommel'. I looked in a Flemish dictionary; it showed bommel as relating to hommel and also to trains, but the etymology was a little beyond me). De Koninck Cuvee. This was a special product they started offering last year to tie in with 'Antwerp-Cultural Capital of Europe '. It's stronger than its more famous namesake; the alcohol overwhelmed the De Koninck-ness; to me, there's a spicy flavor in DK that you don't find in every glass; the alcohol just buried that. Perhaps I should stop there lest I seem to have tried them all ;-) Other brewers featured were: St. Jozef, Lefebvre, Van den Bossche, St. Guibert, De Kluis (only the wit), Moortgat, Bios, Liefmans (kriek, not Goudenband), John Martin, Straffe Hendrik and Palm. The first stop in Brugge also featured a brewery tour. We opted out as we'd just boarded. I lack for being able to post which one; may have been the Straffe Hendrik. I missed some of the particulars as my Flemish isn't, well, just isn't. I spoke with some of the event organizers. Unfortunately, the 'bommel may not be repeated in the near future. It was apparently quite expensive to stage. The OBP kept the price of admission low; 200 BeF or about $6. They expected great publicity, and they received it. I expect their ranks increased smartly over the weekend (I signed up). I received my starting info from OBP. There was a posting about joining in LD# 351. The magazine (Flemish) is worth it; lots of stuff that doesn't lack for being in Flemish (like the new beers, a comparison of lambic beers by bacteria count, etc). You get 4 issues with the 600 BeF fee, plus, if you happen to visit Belgium, there are lots of events. The VP mentioned is also the proprietor of Antwerp's best beer cafe, the Kulminator; info available in Jackson. Mea culpas if this offends the gentle reader's reader. My CI$ navigator takes liberties with the formatting. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 94 08:33:47 MDT From: resch at craycos.com (Dave Resch) Subject: Re: What's in Rodenbach bottles >Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg & >DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru >bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe, >and that's putting it as a gentleman. The Rodenbach I've had so far in >this country has been amongst the worst commercial beer I've ever >experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Regular Rodenbach is not >as robust as the Grand Cru, but it tastes nothing like this. I agree completely with Phil Seitz on this one. I loved the regular Rodenbach that I tasted in Belgium a few years ago. The stuff we are getting here is definitely not the same. The first time I tasted the Rodenback here, I thought I must have gotten a single bad bottle. I tried several more bottles bought at different sources and they were all same. I'll wait for the "good stuff", thank you! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 10:09:14 -0500 From: tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman) Subject: Rodenbach/comments on Brett sources A number of recent posts have commented on the quality of exported Rodenbach. Indeed, Phil Seitz recently stated: >I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I really think we've had some bad >beer dumped on us. One (perhaps) piece of supporting evidence is the >rumor that Rodenbach was having some serious fermentation problems a >short time back. I gather things have been cleared up, but I suspect I >know where the bad beer went to. I am happy that somebody who is in a position to know has come forward to say that, in fact, the emperor is not wearing any clothing. I have had a hard time, until now, reconciling my own impressions of exported Rodenbach with all of the rave reviews that one finds. I purchased a bottle of Rodenbach from a local merhcant back in January. Admittedly, expectations were high. Unfortunately this stuff didn't deliver - not even close. Appearance was reddish brown, absolutely no head with low carbonation, which was fine with me. However, it was absolutely lacking in the anticipated flavor. It was only mildly acidic and incredibly insipid. Its complexity consisted of a sensation that one often percieves when visiting a pier or harbor: oily brine with that ever present odor of decaying crustaceons. I had no idea this stuff was brewed with bilge water! I half expected to find barnacles in the empty bottle. Of course, I fought off the urge to dump it and drank the entire bottle, just in case it is an acquired taste. However, at $3.99 a bottle I was a bit chagrined. They are really shooting themselves in the foot with this stuff; I am truly gun-shy when it comes to purchasing their product (as export). I think that it is up to the importer to demand a better quality product. - -------------------------------- About 7 months back there was a big flap over the quality of Brett cultures being offered by vendors. The gist of the whole thing was that a couple of vendors were selling cultures that were almost certainly not Brett cultures, as determined by metabolic assays, microscopic inspection, and sensory analysis. One vendor, upon realizing the problem, put forth a recall. No vendors were named, but it is assumed that the information was spread word of mouth. So in the interest of setting the record straight I would like to post some updated information: Brewers Resource is now selling a Brett culture that can be called authentic. Some previous cultures appear to have been problematic. The last culture that I looked at was dated 10-93, but was purchased and sent to me in December. My guess is that it is Saccharomyces that either contaminated the Brett stock or was inadvertantly streaked and sold as Brett. These cultures were sold as agar slants. The new cultures (the authentic ones) are sold as liquid cultures with bits of agar in suspension. What it comes down to is this: you will never know whether it was any specific culture that failed to provide you with Brett character. Even legitimate cultures may not provide the desired effect. Consider the diversity of brewing strains of S. cerevisiae. A similar diversity no doubt exists for Brettanomyces. One approach is to throw in every strain that you can get your hands on. Often people will attempt to use bottle cultures, hoping that what they just drank provided some clue as to what the dregs might do for their p-lambic - a reasonable approach, IMHO. Cantillon and Boon bottle cultures produce some fairly striking characteristics (I should mention once again that more recent bottles of Boon Gueuze do not appear to contain a substantial Brett population on account of a new method of blending - so I am told - I have found good levels of Brett in the Faro, though). The beauty of the fermentation of p-lambics is that you can, more or less, add as you go. So, you can add the Brett cultures as you acquire them, even if it is several months following the primary fermentation. Todd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 11:36:10 EDT From: Jay Hersh Subject: What's in your Rodenbach regarding Phillip Seitz comments on my posting >Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg & >DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru >bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe, >and that's putting it as a gentleman. The Rodenbach I've had so far in >this country has been amongst the worst commercial beer I've ever >experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Regular Rodenbach is not >as robust as the Grand Cru, but it tastes nothing like this. Phil, while the Rodenbach you may have had might have been spoiled, there is clearly no doubt that what I posted is correct. Having confirmed it directly with the importer. Sarah White also confirmed this directly during her recent (early April) visit to the brewery. Perhaps you would be more satisfied to call Vanberg & DeWolf yourself. They are located in Cooperstown, NY, which is in the same area code as Binghamton. Sorry I don't have the number handy, perhaps someone else does. Or possibly you would prefer to call the brewery. I forget the country code for Belgium, but the brewery number is 051/22.34.00, or maybe you should just go there and bring some bottles back yourself as both I and Sarah have done. I am more than a little annoyed, that you cite some vague rumor of the brewery having fermentation problems over direct reports from both the importer and the brewery itself, both of which are very recent. So I guess unless we ship you there yourself we're not to be believed. JaH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 09:35:48 -0700 From: "Richard B. Webb" Subject: Wooden barrels While looking through an old copy of The Herb Companion (June/July 1991), I noticed an article about making herbal vinegar that had info on a company that makes wooden barrels. I have sent them a slug-mail request (hey, what do you do, are you still in buisiness, how much, etc), and I can forward any information that they send me to this forum. Or you can ask them themselves. Here's the address: Barrel Builders P.O. box 268 St. Helena, CA 94574 Standard disclaimers, blah, blah, blah. Happy hunting! Rich Webb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:44:19 PDT From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: RIMS/Rodenbach/Aeonbrau winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead) writes: > Subject: Some comments/questions > > I'm currently in the process of building a brewing system. I anyone using > a RIMS system to make lambics? Yes. > My guess is that all that raw wheat would lead to some kind of problem. not yet. The only time I've had a problem is when my false bottom colapsed and grain filled my pump head. (a real bummer since I was about 3/4 of the way through mashing ~50lbs of grain) > I ordered a book entitled "Lambic, Faro, et Gueze" from this outfit in New > York called "Librairie Francaise". It's written by Raymond Buren (I think), > and it's in French. If you'd like details on getting a copy, email me. Why don't you just post the details? We're all expecting a book review too... > I'm going to try to translate the "Lambic, Faro, et Gueze" > book as an excercise if it's not too long (mostly because my French stinks > anymore), and I'm wondering if people mind if I post chunks of it that I > find interesting. Is anyone here _not_ interested?? > More seriously -- > > My two-month old pLambic is still cloudy, and smells disgusting. I'm > wondering whether or not the Brett took hold. I was planning on doing > a SG reading, and if it comes out above 1.020 perhaps adding another Brett > culture on two. Thoughts? Comments? The extra brett. couldn't hurt. I'd venture a guess that all you really need is some (a lot of?) time. "Phillip Seitz" writes: > Subject: What's in Rodenbach bottles > > Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg & > DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru > bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe, > and that's putting it as a gentleman. I've also heard what Jay did & I heard it first hand too. > The Rodenbach I've had so far in this country has been amongst the worst > commercial beer I've ever experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Worst or really just a bad version of Rodenbach. I agree that it isn't what I'd like but is it reall the worst beer you've ever experienced? > I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I really think we've had some bad > beer dumped on us. More likely what we have the marketing folks intended to give us. (note: I don't mean Don. I've had numerous talks with him & find it hard to believe he would do this.) > One (perhaps) piece of supporting evidence is the > rumor that Rodenbach was having some serious fermentation problems a > short time back. I gather things have been cleared up, but I suspect I > know where the bad beer went to. Can someone suggest as to where this rumor started? Its the first I've ever heard of it. Either my 'contacts' aren't keeping me up on things or this really is a rumor. "Phillip Seitz" writes: > Subject: New Yeast Vendor > > Lambic Digesters may be interested in a new yeast vendor, the Aeonbrau > Co., run by Brian Nummer I think Brian is on-line here (ban5845 at tntech.edu). If he really still is, I hope he can post a little bit on the origins of his strains. (lets just not have an infinite EasyLambic thread ala Jack S. -- though Brian has been very quiet in the past so its probably not necessary) I'd also be interested in discussing how he keeps and verifies the stability of his mixed cultures. QC is a real bitch with these things. --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:54:48 PDT From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: Factoids Hi, I was just doing a little work on my archives and I thought I'd share some statistics: The archives (both from the mailing list days & the digest) total 65,177 lines or 2,550,010 characters. This is about 1200 pages. (I wonder how much of that is really useful?) There are currently 362 subscribers. Yeah, I know this is a drop in the bucket comapred to HBD, but I still find it amusing. --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:48:20 PDT From: zeiss!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley) Subject: Rodenbach Woes From: "Phillip Seitz" >Jay Hersh commented on the Rodenbach we've been receiving and Vanberg & >DeWolf's response that we're getting regular Rodenbach in Grand Cru >bottles. I must say that I find this extremely difficult to believe, >and that's putting it as a gentleman. The Rodenbach I've had so far in >this country has been amongst the worst commercial beer I've ever >experienced--watery, dishtowel flavors, etc. Regular Rodenbach is not >as robust as the Grand Cru, but it tastes nothing like this. Sorry Phil, but I believe Jay is right. Jay's comments are completely consistent with the picture that was painted for me when I visited Rodenbach last November. My info came from Eric Deseure, who is Rodenbach's main marketing guy, and also ran their MIS system(!) Eric's reasoning was that you had to have spiffy labels to sell beer in the US, and the Grand Cru labels far outshined the brown glass colored labels on Rodenbach Classic. Furthermore, the oak barrels depicted on the Grand Cru labels were part of Rodenbach's claim to fame, and they wished to leverage that as much as possible. So they began shipping Rodenbach Classic under the Grand Cru label. Last January or so, some of us got together (Mike Sharp, Pete Schlossberg, Tom Dalldorf), and tasted imported "Grand Cru" (read Classic), along side of hand carried Grand Cru. They were indeed different beers, but no dishtowels. I'm curious about this rumor of fermentation woes at Rodenbach. Where did this originate? I find it hard to believe that they would go to all the trouble of re-introducing their beers to the US market, putting warnings about drunk pregnant women on the label, shipping overseas, etc., only to blow it by dumping a bad batch and turning everyone off. New product introductions entail delicate situations, and Eric appreciates this. CR ------------------------------ End of Lambic Digest ************************ -------