From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Fri Apr 29 03:24:53 1994 Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA00305 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Fri, 29 Apr 94 03:24:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id AAA22229 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Fri, 29 Apr 1994 00:30:09 -0600 Message-Id: <199404290630.AAA22229 at longs.lance.colostate.edu> Reply-To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here) Errors-To: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here) To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Subject: Lambic Digest #330 (April 29, 1994) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 00:30:09 -0600 Lambic Digest #330 Fri 29 April 1994 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Contents: re: Verachtert paper(s) (Michael Sharp) Hoegarden/Celis Wit recipe (slkinsey) Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the subject or body of your message (to netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 15:22:35 PDT From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: re: Verachtert paper(s) thomasr at ezrz1.vmsmail.ethz.ch (ROB THOMAS) writes: > Subject: strange starter/Verachtert paper > > Hello all, > A couple of points. > I've already pestered Dan M on the first one, but impetuous as ever, > and slightly worried about what I'll find when I get home tonight, > I thought I'd ask the group as a whole: > I made up a starter from a Mort Subite Gueze on saturday. ... > Any ideas as to what this may be? any of a host of things. unfortunately you can't do taxonomy based on what you've told us about... > Is this a very fast pellicle or is it an unwanted guest? getting a pellicle from pedio _or_ brett this fast (from a bottle culture) is a little wierd. Pellicles from such fastidious critters usually take much longer to form. Its possible, but I wouldn't put money on it. Kloeckera sometimes behaves the way you describe this, but thats a really huge shot in the dark on my part. > I'm extremely reluctant to taste this stuff due to its > unattractive appearance. You won't taste it, but you'll put it in your beer??? > I suppose the first thing I should do is > plate it. What then? What kind of magnification do I need on > a microscope to see the cell shapes? Cell shapes don't tell you much at all. You'll be able to tell yeast from bacteria, but you won't be able to make much more of a determination. If you're looking for bacteria and have good eyes 400x will do it (yeah, I know people say 1000x minimum, but _I_ can see pedio. and 440x - so there!). If your eyes aren't so good, or your microscopy skills are rusty then go 1000x. If you have access to (or money to burn) phase contrast microscopes are fun to play with, but otherwise generally unnecessary. (though they do make sorting things out a bit easier) > Will I get home tonight to find my kitchen oozing with frothy bugs? You'll find out before you read this reply. 8-) > On a second note, I was reading a couple of papers by Prof. > Verachtert on bugs during lambic fermentation. The newer (1990?) > review type artical lead me back to an older paper from 1977. > In this I found a number of points that peeked my interest: > Firstly that "the very fast growth of enterobacteriaceae and > of Kl. apiculata results in a decrease of the pH from 5.1 to > 4.6. This coincides with the synthesis of amounts of acetic acid > of the same order of magnitude as found in the final product." > Thus my question: in for instance Cantillon, are these enteros > and Kl. apiculata more prevelent than in lambics with lower > acetic flavour? Certainly the growth curves of the various organisms differ from brewery to brewery, but I wouldn't claim that a single organism at a particular stage of the beer's fermentation is solely responsible for the intense acidity of a beer like Cantillon. There are many acid producers involved in the lambic process & I hesitate to pin the results on any one of them. However, what you suggest certainly may play a role. > Another note: he describes the brett flavour in the earlier > paper as mousy? So which furry animal/farmyard setting best > describes it? mousey is a wine term that I've always heard mentioned in the same breath as horsey and goaty. perhaps a wine geek can help you split hairs on these? > Third note: pedd infection coincided with the summer months. > Does thisindicate when we should do it? yup. its warmer in the brewer's cellars then & hence the increase in the bacterial concentrations (from what I understand). With modern conveniences like heat & A/C we don't _really_ need to brew according to the seasons, but if you want to be really anal in your 'traditional' approach... > Final point: > the samples taken were from the fermenting lambic, drawn from > the central end apperture only. Does anyone have data to compare > microbiological profiles at this part of the barrel to particularly > the top, where the pelicle etc forms? Presumable there could be > massive differences in a 650 litre barrel. Persumably you are correct. I've never seen such a study. > How amenable > are the brewers to giving VERY young samples? I'll skip commenting on this. I would like to point out that if you bring a sample back you shouldn't do the usual isolating for singles, etc. you'll have a whole mixed bag & thats just what you want in your fermenter. --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 23:04:42 EDT From: slkinsey at aol.com Subject: Hoegarden/Celis Wit recipe Here is a recipe which I have made a few times that tastes very much like the real thing... This beer takes two mashes: In addition to the regular mash, there is a "Lactic mash" to acidify the regular mash and provide a measure of lactic sourness which would normally be provided by a lactic infection during fermentation (Pierre Celis stops this souring infection after a week, however, by pasteurization and repitches the yeast to complete the fermentation - a lactic mash is a good comprimise I think) L actic Mash: 0.50 pound Belgian 2 row malt 0.50 pound Belgian 6 row malt Main mash: 2. 25 pounds Belgian 2 row malt 2.25 pounds Belgian 6 row malt 4 .00 pounds unmalted hard re d wheat (ground very fine) 0.25 pound oats Other ingredients: 0.25 ounce bitter orange quar ters, milled (15 minutes) 0.25 ounce fresh whole coriander, milled (15 minutes) 5 .00 AAUs bittering , equal portions of Willamette and Cascade leaf hops Wyeast #3944 - Belgian White Beer Yeast Lactic mash: Prepare 48 hours prior to main mash. Fully saccharify the mash, cool to 120 degrees and in oculate with Lactobacillus Delbruckii (either with commercial inoculant or with a handful of dry crushed malt), and rest airtight at 120 degrees for 48 hours. Discard any discolored grains and add to main mash at doughing in. Main mash: Dough in and acid rest 95 degrees 30 minutes (add l actic mash) Protein rest 122 degrees 30 minutes Saccharification rest 150 degrees 45 mi nutes Saccharification rest 161 degrees 15 minutes Mash out 168 degrees 10 minutes Fer mentation: Settling: Force wort cool, rack into settling vessel, rack beer off trub within 6 hou rs. Primary: 1 week at 64-75 degrees Secondary: 4-5 weeks at 54-59 degrees Bottling/priming: Fresh yeast culture and glucose. Correct to around pH 3.9-4.1 with lactic acid. Bottle fermentation: 10 days at 77 degrees The grain bill is based on one which was quoted from Pierre Celis, and the mash schedule comes directly from his brewery in Texas. The fermentation schedule is from M. Jackson's "World Guide to Beer" and is quoted as being the Hoegarden procedure. You also need to use hard red winter wheat to get the correct flavor, the soft white stuff just doesn't taste the same. Samuel Lloyd Kinsey ------------------------------ End of Lambic Digest ************************ -------