From postmaster at longs.lance.colostate.edu Wed Mar 9 14:50:55 1994 Received: from longs.lance.colostate.edu by goodman.itn.med.umich.edu with SMTP id AA00930 (5.65b/IDA-1.4.3 for spencer at hendrix.itn.med.umich.edu); Wed, 9 Mar 94 14:50:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (root at localhost) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5a (LANCE 1.01)) id LAA29016 for reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:42:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199403091842.LAA29016 at longs.lance.colostate.edu> Reply-To: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (postings only - do not send subscription requests here) Errors-To: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu From: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscription requests only - do not post here) To: reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu (subscriber distribution list) Subject: Lambic Digest #294 (March 08, 1994) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:42:19 -0700 Lambic Digest #294 Tue 08 March 1994 Forum on Lambic Beers (and other Belgian beer styles) Mike Sharp, Digest Coordinator Contents: Do not send to reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu!!! Syrup question (VOLKER) HWBTA results (Rick Garvin) WYEAST Belgian ale (Aaron Birenboim) WYEAST Belgian ale Wits and flour? (Spencer.W.Thomas) Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) (Michael Sharp) White Beers and Orange Peel (Teddy Winstead) Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) (Philip Cutone) Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) ("Jack D. Hill") timing of beasts??? (RON) Apologies ("Jack D. Hill") Sequin Moreau in Napa has French Oak casks (Martin Wilde) Send article submissions only to: lambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu Send all other administrative requests (subscribe/unsubscribe/change) to: lambic-request at longs.lance.colostate.edu Back issues are available by mail; send empty message with subject 'HELP' to: netlib at longs.lance.colostate.edu A FAQ is also available by netlib; say 'send faq from lambic' as the subject or body of your message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed Mar 9 11:34:05 MST 1994 From: Steve Dempsey Subject: Do not send to reallambic at longs.lance.colostate.edu!!! As most readers know by now, bad things happen when someone sends to , the distribution address, instead of the digestifier address. I think I've gotten this fixed now. This issue and the next didn't make it out on schedule and are being sent manually. Hopefully the next one will automatically be distributed to everyone instead of just to me. -Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 1994 09:01:58 EDT From: VOLKER Subject: Syrup question Hi folks A friend who has made several fine batches of pLambic but who has no net access asked me to gather some net.wisdom for him. He is looking for a source for raspberry syrup - he has had great success with krieks, but wants to move into framboises. Every place he has checked here in Baltimore has stuff that is fortified with apple juice only. Any ideas or addresses out there? All is appreciated Volker radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:00:40 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Garvin Subject: HWBTA results The HWBTA National went this past weakend as Phil noted. Phil Seitz, Scott Bickham, David Ruggerio and Debra Nathanson were the judges. I was VERY pleased with the quality of judging that went on. I took to heart the comments that folks made about the quality of the AHA judging and I believe that the judging was on a higher plane. I would like to echo Phil's comments. The Lambic was an outstanding effort. It had more acetic than lactic character and was underattenuated. Another addition of sachromyces and some lactobacillus would make this a BOS beer. Unfortunately, this beer did not get a ribbon. The third place Wit by Scott Bickham had a bit of the ham hock note. This was a wonderful beer. The second place Wit by Mark Groshek had too much coriander. Again, a woinderful beer. The first place Dubbel by Andy Anderson tasted just like a beer made with La Chouffe yeast always does. Tasty, but too much fusel. At BOS the fusel was the downfall of this beer. Excellent effort. The official results: 2. Belgian Style 1) #148 Andy Anderson, Alexandria VA, Dubbel 2) #323 Mark Groshek, Denver CO, Wit 3) #59 Scott Bickham, Ithaca NY, Wit Cheers, Rick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 09:30:32 MST From: abirenbo at redwood.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim) Subject: WYEAST Belgian ale To: lambic Subject: WYEAST Belgian ale on Mon, Mar 7 digest, Phillip R. Seitz menwioned many over-banana, solventy beers from WYEAST belgian ale. I have heard similar stories in the past.... hence the Abbey I bottled this weekend was from chimay cultures. (Its pretty good... but quite "rummy" from 2# sugar... but I kind of like it.) However, last month at our homebrew cluib meeting I had a rather excellent doubble-like beer from WYEAST Belgian. Banana... perhaps some, but mostly it was "tuti-fruity"... a characteristic often described as bubble-gum. It was also high in clove-phenolics, which I also like. I was tasing it blind, and at first I wasa thinking dunkel-weizen (due to the clove), but with the excessive fruitiness it seemed off style.... but when suggested that I treated it as a double... i gave it excellent marks. Chuck Keiper (formerly of GABF fame... but thats another story) agreed with me that it was the best beer of the night. Are there STILL problems with this yeast.... or was it just that WYEAST had to make a few mistakes before getting the handling of this yeast right? Is it the yeast the same as ever... and just hard to control? What might the brewer of the beer I had have done right, that others have done wrong? Temp??? perhaps. I think this guy, brewing in Colorado winter, was fenmenting somwhere in the 60's. Suggestion... I have heard that lower temps REDUCE phenols (like clove) and most likely higher alchahols (solvent). Feel free to disagree, I'm no expert. Low wort aeration increases esters. So... If you like esters (fruit, bubble-gum, banana), pitch a good volume, but under-aerate your wort. Perhaps one should ferment this yeast in the low 60's to control solvent. Anyone out here have experience with this yeast? Phillip also suggested that trippels be low on fruity esters. I do not know what the style guidelines say, but my taste does not agree here. The commercial tripples I liked best did show fruitiness. I do agree on strong ales. (I am familiar with scaldis, deuvel, and some abbeys&trappists) These tend to have such high amounts of yeast-derived character due to high gravityu, that it might be well advised to do everything you can to reduce yeast products. (lo temp, high aeration) But SOME belgian spicyness is nice... I'm not sure what yeast to go with. The bottling yeast form Deuvel is really quite nice IMOHO, even if it will not produce a deuvel clone by itself. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 11:37:12 EST From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu Subject: Wits and flour? Does anyone have an opinion on using flour (whole-wheat, of course) in Wit beer? To me, the advantages are: + Can get soft, medium, or hard wheat easily. + Don't have to mill it. + Extraction rate should be high Potential disadvantages include: - More chance of stuck sparge? - Further removed from "the real thing" :=) I can get fresh, organic, locally ground flour at my food coop, in "pastry" (soft wheat), "all-purpose" (blend of soft & hard??), and "bread" (hard wheat) varieties. I can also get wheat berries in "soft" and "hard", bulgur from an unknown variety (pre-crushed and gelatinized (?)), and semolina couscous (very high protein, also pre-cooked). =S ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 08:50:44 PST From: msharp at Synopsys.COM (Michael Sharp) Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) Phil writes: > Finally, I might as well spill the beans. My brew club, BURP, is seriously > considering holding an AHA-sponsored Belgian-styles-only contest in November. > Since it was my idea I'll probably be running it. In any case, details will be > forthcoming, but in the meantime you may want to do some planning and > brewing--ESPECIALLY you lambic-tarians. Assuming we go forward with this I > will make every effort to see that our judges are up to snuff and know their > Belgian beers. With luck this will stimulate many of you to new levels of > experimentation and to the discovery of new methods for the fabrication of > quality Belgian-style beer. Just a thought. Seriously consider relaxing the 12oz brown bottle requirement. The addition of a green/brown punted split with a cork would really help some of us (ok, maybe I'm the only purist?). --Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:41:02 -0600 (CST) From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead) Subject: White Beers and Orange Peel > A) Many white beers have an orangey flavor, but it's now apparent that > this comes from fresh coriander seed rather than from orange > peel. Boiling dried standard-type orange imparts a ham-like > aroma that will lose you points and contribute little to the > finished beer. Better to find some fresh coriander for your brew, > and to use bitter orange peels, which contribute an herbal > bitterness. These are now available from a number of homebrew > dealers. I'm not out to start a flamewar here, god knows that's the last thing that we need, but I must take issue with this statement. I've used "standard-type orange" peels in two batches of white beer with tremendous success. Their contribution to a brew is not identical to Curacao orange peels used by many commercial brewers of Whites, but it is certainly similar, and appropriate to the style (IMHO). I have to agree with the statement that boiling the peels produces a weird flavor that is well-described as "ham-like", but what I do is steep the peels during the last ten to fifteen minutes under low heat at the finish of the boil. This seems to do the job just fine. By the way, could anyone give me a phone # for someplace the stocks dried, bitter orange peels? My local store can't get them... - -- Teddy Winstead winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu winstead at cs.tulane.edu Computer Science Undergraduate Fanatical Homebrewer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:19:17 -0500 From: pec at tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (Philip Cutone) Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) Since there has been talk of chimey, i thought i'd ask. Chimey adds a bit of yeast to the bottle before final bottling. they say so on the bottle. Am i to assume that there is a good chance of there being active cultures in the bottle. i thought most drinks need to be free from little beasties before allowable import. Does FDA consider yeast an allowable food product? Anyone know the charactoristics of the yeast? Top/bottom (presume bottom) and if its good for anything other than beer. i'd like to make some mead/kvass/wine but have not the means of getting to a homebrew supply store.. I guess i could mail order... but i think chimey tastes better than plane yeast/agar cultures... :) So anyone have any 800 numbers to call? i guess i could always try the write the brewers and ask for yeast, then scrape it off the letter they send to say that its a trade secret and they wont give me any.... :) finally, where is the FAQ ftpable so i don't have to bother everyone with already covered material... philip bibunt centum bibunt mille! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 14:09:02 EST From: "Jack D. Hill" Subject: Re: Lambic Digest #293 (March 07, 1994) I think people should take Phil's radical advice concerning Wyeast Belgian with a grain of salt. I brewed two back to back batches of Belgian ales that both had the strong banana esters Phil complained about. The first was fermented with a Chimay culture and the second with Belgian Wyeast. I suggest that the reason Phil found the samples he tasted were so bad was that they were young. After waiting one year, my beers lost all of the nasty esters and left a complex, spicy character that is typical of Belgian ales. Which brings me to another point... I had assumed that the date printed on the cork of Chimay bottles is the date of bottling. Does anyone have any information on how long the beer is allowed to ferment before bottling? I've had bottles of Chimay that were dated as being as young as 2 months. In fact, I was advised that these young bottles are the ones to try to get cultures from. I'm experimenting and working on the theory that most Belgian ales are fermented with more than one yeast. My last batch was a fairly successful pale ale that started with the Kent Belgian yeast in the primary and a dry fermenting yeast in the secondary. Before I transferred from the primary the yeast seemed finished and showed no activity. The secondary yeast went nuts and beer was coming out of the airlock. The beer still had the banana esters but it matured much more quickly than the batches made with only Belgian yeast. In my next batch, I plan to reverse the order of fermenting yeast. Perhaps a Bavarian Wheat in the primary followed by the Belgian. I'll keep you posted. Jack Hill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Mar 1994 15:25 EST From: RON.admin at admin.creol.ucf.edu (RON) Subject: timing of beasts??? Couple of questions to the net from a first time p-Lambic brewer.... - Guinard suggests pitching P. Cerevisiae at one time and the Brett. afterwards. In the Lambic FAQ Al suggests doing a natural pitching all at one time. Whats up with that???? - Simulating casking with some oak chips - how much and how to prepare???? - Having trouble finding somewhere in the southeast (US) that has or can special order the P. Cerevisiae culture from GWKent. Nobody stocks it regularly. I would like to pitch in the near future and was wondering about sending them through the mail (heat). Its already in the mid 80's in the afternoon here in Central Florida - coldest winter in a long time. Thanks to all - -------------------- Ron Raike - Facilities / Computers / Networks CREOL - Center for Research and Education in Optics \ | / and Lasers at the University of Central Florida \\|// - -------------------------------------------------------------*------- email ron at laser.creol.ucf.edu //|\\ phone 407.658.6803 / | \ fax 407.658.6880 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 18:06:15 EST From: "Jack D. Hill" Subject: Apologies ...to everyone for my ineptitude. My mail handler for some reason cc'd everyone in the message header and my message accidentaly got sent to reallambic as well as lambic. Thank you so much for your kind understanding. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 16:41:16 PST From: Martin Wilde Subject: Sequin Moreau in Napa has French Oak casks Text item: Text_1 In Lambic Digest 284, Dave Resch posts: > Mike, > > I have purchased two casks from a French company in Napa. I have bought > -their > 50 litre French Oak casks, but I just recieved information that they are now > importing American Oak into France and are making American Oak casks also. > > The French Oak casks are 1030 French Francs. With the current exchange rate, > that is about $175.00. The cask I just bought cost 185.60 delivered to > Colorado. > > Here's the info: > > Name: Seguin Moreau > Address: 2180 Jefferson Street > Napa, CA 94559 > Phone: (707) 252-3408 I just called the folks and they also have 27L liter ~7 3/4 gallon French Oak casks for about $145 (based on current exchange rate). It sounds like the bigger the cheaper. By the way Dave, what did you have to do to prepare the casks for usage? With the French Oak, did you notice any oakiness? Is there a difference in Slovanian and French Oak? Steinbarts here in Portland (503-232-8793) has 50L Slovanian Oak casks for $185. ------------------------------ End of Lambic Digest ************************ -------