Subject: Digest for the period 8/31/2007 - 9/1/2007 Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 01:04:12 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re:Order (Ubi) 2. RE: aroma vs bouquet (Brian Lundeen) 3. River City Roundup Homebrew Competition in Omaha Nebraska (Wayne Simerly) 4. RE: Order more significant than verbiage (Denis Barsalo) 5. Order when judging / "shouting down" (robert paolino) 6. RE: Order more significant than verbiage (Joel Plutchak) 7. what came first, the bouquet or the aroma? (Spencer W. Thomas) 8. Judging comments (Peed, John) 9. Michael Jackson 1942-2007 (Alan Hord) 10. "Appearance" or the "Aroma"? (TashFam`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ubi Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:31:00 -0400 Subject: Re:Order Aroma belongs first; being more transient relative to appearance. If you don't capture the aroma while you have the carbonation you may miss some nuances. The appearance will remain fairly unchanged, head stand can be observed while you sniff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Lundeen Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:26:27 -0500 Subject: RE: aroma vs bouquet > From: Jon Tobey Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:27:19 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Verbiage > > Second "Most beers do not have the opportunity to develop > bouquet." Well, I'm sorry you live in that world. I had a > beer once, made by Mike Webb, that I could only describe as > having bouquet. I could not differntiate the malt from the > hops. If I concentrate, I can still smell and taste that beer. > Unless Mike's beer was of significant (by beer standards) age, I would still place this in the aroma category. Jon, if you wish to adopt wine verbiage, you must also adopt their definitions. They had them first, they get to make the rules. It doesn't matter how complex or integrated the nose is (ha ha Mike, you thought I would use the word smell there didn't you?), it is still youthful aroma. It would be like tasting a year old Cotes du Rhone, and saying that you couldn't tell where the Grenache left off and the Carignan began, so it must have bouquet. I'm sure you will agree how very wrong that would be, so how can you apply that rationale to a beer? Aroma=young Bouquet=aged But what do I know? I am neither BJ or WJ certified, and I have consumed both Pilsner and Chardonnay this evening. I am surely a heathen. ;-) Cheers Brian ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wayne Simerly Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: River City Roundup Homebrew Competition in Omaha Nebraska Fellow Homebrewers, The 2007 River City Roundup Homebrew Competition in Omaha Nebraska is fast approaching. We hope this year is as aMaizing as last year, but we need your support. All BJCP categories of beer and mead will be accepted. Also back are the Bullshooter's Cup and the Cornhusker Cup. Entries will be accepted from August 27th thru September 8th at our gracious host the Upstream Brewing Company. Hand delivered entries will be accepted September 8th from 9:00 am to noon. Please check the website for more details at: http://www.rivercityroundup.org/dcf/beer/ Once again we're proud to be the fifth leg of the High Plains Brewer of the Year, see: http://www.kcbiermeisters.org/NewHighplains.htm River City Roundup Homebrew Competition is generously sponsored by: OmaHops Homebrew Club Upstream Brewing Company Kirk's Do-It-Yourself Brew and Gifts Hops Direct White Labs Brew Your Own Magazine American Homebrewers Association Wyeast Laboratories Please support them as they help support our craft. Thanks and Happy Brewing, Wayne Simerly Assistant Organizer River City Roundup Homebrew Competition ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Denis Barsalo Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:07:20 -0400 Subject: RE: Order more significant than verbiage Dick asked: But what do you notice when judging - the "Appearance" or the "Aroma"? Although you'll see the beer before you smell it, you should hurry to evaluate it's aroma since some of the "smells" will dissipate quickly and you may miss an opportunity to pick up its true "bouquet". :-) As far as appearance, it will look pretty much the same in a few minutes. Denis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: robert paolino Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:31:22 -0500 Subject: Order when judging / "shouting down" On Fri, 2007-31-08 at 01:00 -0400, JudgeNet - the beer judge digest wrote: > From: MeadGuild`at`aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 02:28:36 EDT > Subject: Order more significant than verbiage > > "What came first the chicken or the egg?" may be a > philosophical question. But what do you notice when > judging - the "Appearance" or the "Aroma"? Although you undoubtedly notice the appearance first, certain components of the aroma may disappear sooner. The colour and clarity will still be there. (And although the head may fall quickly, I think you'll probably recall whether it started with a larger head in assessing retention.) ...and Tobey wrote (on aroma/bouquet/smell) > However, every idea I see brought up here, mine or otherwise, gets > vehemently shouted down by the naysayers. So I ask, what is the point > of the list? Don't take it personally. The fact that people may disagree with the necessity, urgency, accuracy, correctness, and/or anything else of an idea or suggestion doesn't mean that they are "shout[ing] [it] down" any more than someone should expect to propose something and automatically have it accepted without discussion. After all, wouldn't that expectation of unquestioned acceptance be another form of shouting others down? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joel Plutchak Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:47:07 +0000 Subject: RE: Order more significant than verbiage Dick poses the question: >"What came first the chicken or the egg?" may be a >philosophical question. But what do you notice when >judging - the "Appearance" or the "Aroma"? Perhaps a better question is "What dissipates faster, the aroma or the appearance?" I find that often some of the more volatile components of the aroma [1] waft off and dissipate fairly quickly after the pour [2], which is why I like to immediately get a nice big sniff or three of an entry. Of course, I'm also looking at the beer, judging color, size/color/consistency of head, etc. But usually the aroma gets the first written comments. [1] Although I suspect this opinion will just get summarily dismissed as "naysaying," I think using different words to differentiate aspects of "smell" based on process rather than simple "sense" would be (is) both confusing and artificial, regardless of source. The sense of smell is a single sense. If we were to adopt the alleged aroma/bouquet difference, would we do the same for flavor? Seems rather arbitrary to me (I dabble in semantics on the job, FWIW). [2] This is one reason I've never understood the point of view of "pitcher presentation" proponents. _________________________________________________________________ Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spencer W. Thomas Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: what came first, the bouquet or the aroma? > But what do you notice when > judging - the "Appearance" or the "Aroma"? > > Dick > There's a very good reason that Aroma (Bouquet, whatever) is listed first, which you should have learned during your judge training. That is because there are aromatic elements (is there an equivalent to "aromatic" for bouquet?) that dissipate quickly, and we, as judges, want to be sure to capture them. If we take the time to evaluate and write about the appearance, we may miss these fleeting clues to quality (or lack thereof :-). The appearance, on the other hand, doesn't change much over the first 20-30 seconds of evaluation. I have no problem with using the term "Aroma". In fact, I prefer it over the perhaps more precise "bouquet". I think that it is more immediately understood by the *audience* of our judging, which is the homebrewer. We are not filling out score sheets for ourselves, nor for our fellow judges. We are providing feedback to the brewer. Any brewer will understand "aroma" to mean its common dictionary definition of "1. a. A quality that can be perceived by the olfactory sense: the aroma of garlic and onions." (American Heritage Dictionary) In fact, Dictionary.com unabridged (v 1.1) has this definition: "2.(of wines and spirits) the odor or bouquet." We get better judges by education, practice, and feedback to the judges. I really don't think we get better judges by forcing them to learn jargon (The specialized or technical language of a trade, profession, or similar group.) except when that jargon has words that are not in the common vocabulary (such as "diacetyl" and "phenolic"). And, reiterating my previous point, I don't think that we enhance communication with the brewer by using jargon, except where it is unavoidable. And I think that in this case it is avoidable. =Spencer in Ann Arbor BJCP National Judge since 1997 (I need to take the test again to advance.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peed, John Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:23:56 -0700 Subject: Judging comments Jon Tobey makes some good points: 1) there's a fair amount of shouting down that goes on, although that may be more perception than fact - there is lively discussion, for sure, and no matter what you post here it probably won't be entirely agreed with; 2) "A lot of judging just plain sucks" - amen to that. I still feel that accounting for and explaining all point deductions makes for better, more objective judging, but there's plenty of opposition to that; 3) improving the score sheet would be a good start. I'm not in favor of bouquet replacing aroma - I think aroma works just fine (I'd rather see it follow appearance, but you can fill out the sheet in any order you want) - but I am strongly in favor of adopting Gordon Strong's proposed new score sheet that was used in last years NHC first round and a few other competitions. I thought that sheet was just excellent; very well thought out, very comprehensive without requiring a lot of writing, and very informative to the entrant. Does anyone know if it is being seriously considered as a replacement for the existing sheet? John Peed Oak Ridge, TN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Hord Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:09:10 -0700 Subject: Michael Jackson 1942-2007 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20530292/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson_(writer) It is a sad day to be sure. But I will also remember my brief interactions ~ which were quite interesting. I first met MJ in 1993 as the guest speaker at "Homebrew-U" in Seattle; an annual series of lectures hosted by Charles Finkel of Merchant DuVin. It was his 51st birthday, and as such he gave us this brief story of his humble beginning (paraphrased): "When I was a young lad I enjoyed writing stories; one day someone said to me 'you know you could make a living doing that'. So I began reading about the great writers and discovered that they all drank, which was fine to me since too like to drink". "When I was 16 I applied for a writer's job at the local paper; I said to the Publisher 'I've got a great idea for a series of stories where I review neighborhood pubs.' The Publisher says 'That's a fantastic idea Michael! But are you suggesting we send you into a pub though you're under-aged?' " "'Well, I suppose you could look at it that way. But then I'd write about the food, the patrons, and of course the pub, and they would appear weekly in my column.' The Publisher replied 'That's wonderful Michael! But are you suggesting we pay you to drink at a bar?'" "'Well, I suppose you could look at it that way. But then we could take a photograph of the pub and the patrons, print it in the article. The patrons would see their names, cut out the article and hang it on the wall. There are fifty pubs in the village; we could do one a week. Think how it would increase circulation!' The Publisher replied 'Brilliant Michael! Simply brilliant! But what would you call it, this series of articles?'" "I would call it 'This is your Pub'" "And so it was, each week we came out with a new article, and people cut it out, and circulation increased. About a year later the Publisher calls me into his office for a little chat. He says to me 'That series of articles was a capital idea Michael; you're a star! It gives me an idea for another series of articles I want you to do. we'll call it 'This is our Church'" "About that time I decided to move to another town." -fin- Thanks for the stories Michael; I'll never forget. Hoisting one for you! Cheers! Alan Hord, National near Seattle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TashFam`at`aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:10:07 EDT Subject: "Appearance" or the "Aroma"? Appearance is the first thing I notice. I don't remember who said it but the quote "First we drink with our eyes", comes to mind when I read Dick post. That said the Appearance does not change much, if I fill out the Aroma part of a score sheet before I will out the Appearance part. Some Aromas don't last long so that part of the score sheet needs to be filled out first. Drink Up Ed ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Important Subscriber Information ***** To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. Make sure you use a meaningful subject. Quote only as much material as is needed for context. To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge