Subject: Digest for the period 8/29/2007 - 8/30/2007 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:01:46 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. More verbage grouses (mcsage`at`att.net) 2. This is the most fun conversation I have seen yet! Re: aroma vs bouquet (swihart) 3. Verbiage (Jon Tobey) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcsage`at`att.net Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:28:43 +0000 Subject: More verbage grouses Jon Toby Writes: > Can we please change "aroma" on the scoring sheet to the correct term "bouquet"? It seems to me (Just My Arrogant Opinion) that a) we should specifically NOT use terms from Wine Evaluation to avoid confusion with the lesser brethren. After all, we are not 'catch and release' judges. We know that we have the more esthetic, complex, and pleasing beverage. Why elevate common wine to the loftiness of the brews of the devine? b) "Aroma" is the commonly accepted euphemism for "Stench" and thus FAR more appropriate. *I* say leave it. But that's just me. Pete Bussa, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swihart Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:51:56 -0400 Subject: This is the most fun conversation I have seen yet! Re: aroma vs bouquet Oh my heavens. Or oh hell, one of those! I haven't laughed that hard about crap sent to an email list for quite a while. Maybe because I belong to mostly dry, boring lists, and/or maybe because I had a nip of mead tonight. "I'm from the south; let's just call it smell." ROTFL.... whatever that long acronym is that they use. And yes, let's do spell things! Verbiage. Bev I thank you. Words are such adorably nice things, and they MEAN THINGS, hey golly, and the better we use them (and spell them) the better we communicate. Fer sure dude. I am still studying and making sense of Brian's post. Thank you Brian for something to work on. I would like beer and aroma and bouquet and SMELL to be simpler. But what I want has little to do with what is, or so it seems to turn out from time to time. Very interesting example of how words mean things, but there's some serious disparity on which means what to whom. :-) las Brian Lundeen wrote: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> From: Jon Tobey Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:26:59 -0700 (PDT) >> Subject: More verbage grouses >> >> >> Can we please change "aroma" on the scoring sheet to the >> correct term "bouquet"? It is well established in wine >> tasting that aroma is the smell of the grape, while bouquet >> is the overall fragrance including terroir, fermentation, >> cooperage, etc. Certainly in beer where we have the malt, >> hops, yeast, fermentation and other factors all combining, we >> should be using the more inclusive term. >> >> > I'm afraid I must disagree. Aroma should more correctly be interpreted as > the smell of the principal ingredients. In other words, it is young, > undeveloped smells. In the case of wine, that is simply the grape, or to be > more encompassing, the smell of the fruit used to make the wine. Bouquet > comes from chemical reactions occuring during aging. > > Most beers do not have the opportunity to develop bouquet. They are still > the smells produced by the principal ingredients, malt, hops and yeast going > through fermentation. That young beer is much more complex than young wine > merely demonstrates why brewing is a much more gratifying hobby in the short > term than winemaking. Bouquet should only be applied to aged beer smells. > Sniff a 10 year old Chimay Grande Reserve next to one you have just > purchased at your favorite vendor. That will be bouquet vs aroma. > > Cheers > Brian > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Tobey Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Verbiage First, vocabulary is about being explicit. So we should use the more explicit terms to exact the best responses from our judges. It's not about hyperbole it's about asking the right questions to get the right answers, something we are not very good at. (E.g. Overall impression, is that to style or not? Is this just the place we "make up" points? etc.) Second "Most beers do not have the opportunity to develop bouquet." Well, I'm sorry you live in that world. I had a beer once, made by Mike Webb, that I could only describe as having bouquet. I could not differntiate the malt from the hops. If I concentrate, I can still smell and taste that beer. Third: It's a damn shame that many beer drinkers, and judges, are basically proud of their ignorance of other unfermented beverages, and think of beer as distinct from the spectrum. It's one reason why mead is so poorly understood in our circles, among other things (although we embrace Belgian beers as if they were, um Bordeaux). If other people have a taxonomy, and understand it, it only makes sense to adopt it. Fourth: Calling wine drinkers snobs, and pretentious, coming from this group could only be considered high farce. Finally: Terroir does in fact come into play in beer. Do the terms "noble hops" or "continental malts" ring any bells? Jon Tobey Ideastream 425-373-6064 "Battles are won by the remnants of armies." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Important Subscriber Information ***** To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. Make sure you use a meaningful subject. Quote only as much material as is needed for context. To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge