Subject: Digest for the period 3/15/2007 - 3/16/2007 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:02:14 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Style heresy: hear, hear! (Pancho Luna) 2. World Expo of Beer-Call for Judges (Jim Brown) 3. style stuff (George de Piro) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pancho Luna Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:32:25 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Style heresy: hear, hear! > I agree that judging beer using the style guidelines with vague >or broad descriptions does make judging difficult but the point that I >think needs to be addressed is experience. As judges, we have passed an >exam that quantifies our basic brewing and style knowledge but our >tastes are completely subjective and change literally minute to minute. >This is where experience comes in. > An entry needs to be judged by the guidelines, period. If the >guidelines state, "hop aroma can be very low to quite aggressive" and a >beer is within the scale, then the beer should stand. It's wrong for a >judge to deduct points due to his "feeling" that the beer has too low of >hop aroma but does need to state that issue on the score sheet if he >truly can't perceive a hop aroma. Ignorance of the guidelines can be >corrected as well as ego, apprehensiveness of the others judging with >you and a huge store room of issues that can be named. I've been on the >stinky end of the stick at times with stylistically ignorant, opinion >only based judging or being judged against someone's fond memory of >classis example they tasted 10 years ago in Germany while serving our >country but I've been on the good end also (and medaled due to it). > Our work and charge as judges is to compare the product in front >of us and compare it to the style guidelines and then quantify the >product. This does make judging very subjective but a small beer that is >within the guidelines must have equal point weight as the behemoth in >the same category. This is where great judging is seen. I just saw this >happen recently at a competition where Al Boyce pushed a Cream Ale up to >Best of Show over all others because it fit the guidelines and no one at >the BOS table could find a flaw. Again, this is great judging. > >Pancho Luna > > > > >>From: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest >>Sent: Mar 15, 2007 12:04 AM >>To: Digest Recipients >>Subject: Digest for the period 3/14/2007 - 3/15/2007 >> >>Table of contents >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 1. Style heresy: hear, hear! >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>From: Peed, John Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:59:21 -0700 >>Subject: Style heresy: hear, hear! >> >> >> >>I agree with Dion, and it applies to many other categories as well. >>Broad, vague guidelines make for difficult judging. Another >>consequence of broad descriptions is that the guidelines will say one >>thing but judges will judge to a much narrower subset of the >>guidelines. Where characteristics are broadly defined, such as Russian > >>Imperial Stout's "hop aroma can be very low to quite aggressive", >>judges will state on score sheets that a beer didn't meet hop aroma >>expectations. The same is true of British Best Bitter, which states >>that "hop aroma can be moderate to none" - if you enter a British beer >>with no hop aroma, it will get dinged. Doppelbock: Enter a nice one >>that has less than 8 or even 9% alcohol and see how well it does. If >>the descriptions are going to be so broad, then at the very least they >>should state that for competition purposes, certain things will be >>expected. >> >>I have to disagree with Dion's statement that, "That [it comes down to >>which beer is more 'likeable'] seems to go against all we stand for on >>judging by objective criteria, not personal preference." Like it or >>not, beer is judged on personal preference. I floated the idea of >>specifically accounting for all point deductions last year. >>Competitors >>seemed to like the idea but the upper echelon judges did not, saying >>that judging is and should be subjective. That may be true, but it >>often seems to be inconsistent and arbitrary. >> >>John Peed >>Oak Ridge, TN >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>***** Important Subscriber Information ***** >> >>To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. >>Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. >>Make sure you use a meaningful subject. >>Quote only as much material as is needed for context. >> >>To manage your subscription, go to >>http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html >>or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help >judge. >>JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to >>news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge >> > >Saint Luke's Health System Confidentiality Notice: The information >contained in this e-mail transmission is confidential information, >proprietary to the sender and legally protected. 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All levels of judges are welcome. For more information, contact Jim Brown at 989-233-2221 or email happytappy`at`speednetllc.com. Jim Brown, Competition Director World Expo of Beer Frankenmuth, MI ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George de Piro Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 18:20:15 -0500 Subject: style stuff Hi all, Dion complains that some styles, notably the stouts, are so broadly defined that evaluation becomes difficult. In the case of stouts, it's the fault of commercial brewers, not the BJCP, for having overlapping guidelines. The fact is that sweet stouts and a sweet example of an oatmeal stout may not taste all that different. A beer on the high end of Foreign stout may be quite comparable to one on the low side of Imperial. One could go further with this, pointing out that the flavor differences between some stouts and porters are pretty vague. While some porters lack the assertive roastiness that some stouts have, some are quite characterful compared to their stout brethren. What is a judge to do? The best you can! Often, there aren't all that many technically correct beers in any one category at homebrew contests to make it an issue. Larger contests can pose a bit of a problem, but when faced with two beers that are technically good and meet the (broad) style guidelines, the matter necessarily becomes a bit more subjective, depending on each judge's palate and debating skills. The ensuing lively discussions are often quite amusing! As for what John Peed wrote regarding this issue: "Where characteristics are broadly defined, such as Russian Imperial Stout's "hop aroma can be very low to quite aggressive", judges will state on score sheets that a beer didn't meet hop aroma expectations." and "Like it or not, beer is judged on personal preference." Back to me: How long has the BJCP been at this? How is it that anyone in the BJCP can think that beer evaluation is supposed to be subjective?! Beer is judged on personal preference?!?! I thought the BJCP was here to educate its members. Where have we gone wrong? Any judge writing only "hop aroma didn't meet expectations" is a very poor beer evaluator. First, one should write about meeting the style guidelines, not "expectations." Second, one must specify what about the hop aroma didn't meet the guidelines. When one starts to be more specific in their beer descriptions, it is usually easy to justify point deductions and more subtle stylistic errors. That can also make it easier to evaluate beers in overlapping categories. Time to brew, have fun! George de Piro BJCP Master Brewmaster, C.H. Evans Brewing Company at the Albany Pump Station 19 Quackenbush Square Albany, NY, USA 12207 (518)447-9000 www.EvansAle.com Brewers of Kick-Ass Brown: Twice declared the Best American Brown Ale in the USA at the Great American Beer Festival (2000 & 2002), and a World Beer Cup Bronze (2004)! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Important Subscriber Information ***** To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. Make sure you use a meaningful subject. Quote only as much material as is needed for context. To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge