Subject: Digest for the period 5/9/2006 - 5/10/2006 Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 01:02:41 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. RE: Regional Results (Kevin Pratt) 2. Re: Regional Results (Tumarkin) 3. 1st round entering / Beer and Sweat 2006 (David Harsh) 4. Re: Regional Results (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 5. Sending AHA NHC entries to other regions (Colby Sheridan) 6. Organizers entering the AHA region of their choice (Mark Wilson) 7. RE: Regional Results (Gary Glass) 8. RE: Regional Results (jamilz`at`citlink.net) 9. BJCP number (Dr. L.A. Swihart) 10. Re: Regional Results (Kevin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Pratt Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 01:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Regional Results Comments in line: > Well, the results are back from the AHA Great Lakes > Regional and it looks like...What??? Jamil > Zainasheff from QUAFF is the BIG "Winner"??? Maybe he is just a really good and competitive brewer? Brewing is a craft which can only be improved and mastered with experience. > On one hand I say: > > Michigan and Illinois? Brew better beers!!! > Compeition is always good if done in a consciences > and sporting manner. And IMO, _that_ is the bottom line, since it is clearly possible. High score is high score, no judge knew names when the bottle came to the table. Judges there are no less qualified or discriminating as anywhere else. > Talk about a guy (and a club) using a weakend system > to his advantage. He'd rather ship beers cross > country to a two state regional rather than compete > with his fellow clubs in surrounding states. I want > to thank Jamil and QUAFF for showing their true > colors. First off, Jamil certainly doesn't need *me* to defend him, his accomplishments and commitment to brewing speak for themselves. But, I'll talk anyway.... Jamil would have had a conflict of interest if he was in the western region, ***since he was administrating it.*** The west region was comprised of three weekends in far ranging cities. He was at all three sites. Further, he managed to have these sites well organized, beers and panels ready, on time for judging. This doesn't happen without effort or time. He also managed to post both results and judging points in a *very* fast manner, using his laptop right on site. At the bottom of the results page is the explanation of the asterix next to his name: "* Entrants who were part of their regional staff are required to enter their beers in another region." > > Never have I seen a more blatant attempt to gather > points in all my years with the AHA and BJCP (7). > No rules against cross country entries for > organizers, so maybe Jamil and QUAFF should be > commeneded for exposing this and this could be > corrected in the future. Possibly, organizers > should provide their entries to the region closest > to their home region. I am VERY surprised that this > was not in the original rules -- then again you > really don't think people/clubs would behave this > way, either. Ths is a nationwide competition and eventually, everyone competes with every region. Very likely that Jamil would have done very well in his home region, perhaps more so since his beers would not be subject to shipping. Joe Formanek is a very accomplished and respected brewer, who bested Jamil in his favorite category of Scottish Ale. The rest who won are no slouches, either. Entries into competitions are up to the individual, not the club. That includes the entry and shipping fees. The only exception to this is "club only" comps, which this isn't. Club representation is what the brewer stated. I would like to know, are you mad he entered; ...or won? If the former, are you diminishing the achievements of those brewers who beat him? OTOH, Jamil also writes articles; contributes professional IT expertise to the BJCP; provides a podcast radio show; contributes to, and moderates an international beer forum; and freely shares his knowlege and recipes to all that ask. Somehow he also manages to fit in a career and a home life. So, how bad can it be that a nice guy finishes first? Kev. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tumarkin Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 06:50:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Regional Results Wait-a-hold-it-there, Bill...... Like in any good competition, every effort is made to minimize the possibility, or even the appearance of impropriety. In the case of the Nationals it is policy to have the Site Director & Judge Director, and sometimes other staff, who have access to entry information send their entries to other regions for judging. As you can see from the results, Jamil is a kick-ass brewer who has NO NEED to seek any competitive advantage in order to win big. His beers speak loudly for themselves. Then there is the 'small' issue of Jamil's integrity, his passion for and service to our hobby - in so, so many ways. I have to step up here and say that your email is WAY off base. Mark Tumarkin Hogtown Brewers Chairman AHA Governing Committee ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 01:03:29 -0400 >Table of contents >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Regional Results > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: gornicwm`at`earthlink.net Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:33:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >Subject: Regional Results > > >WOW!!! > >Well, the results are back from the AHA Great Lakes Regional and it looks like...What??? Jamil Zainasheff from QUAFF is the BIG "Winner"??? > >On one hand I say: > >Michigan and Illinois? Brew better beers!!! Compeition is always good if done in a consciences and sporting manner. > >Still...on the other hand: > >Talk about a guy (and a club) using a weakend system to his advantage. He'd rather ship beers cross country to a two state regional rather than compete with his fellow clubs in surrounding states. I want to thank Jamil and QUAFF for showing their true colors. > >Never have I seen a more blatant attempt to gather points in all my years with the AHA and BJCP (7). No rules against cross country entries for organizers, so maybe Jamil and QUAFF should be commeneded for exposing this and this could be corrected in the future. Possibly, organizers should provide their entries to the region closest to their home region. I am VERY surprised that this was not in the original rules -- then again you really don't think people/clubs would behave this way, either. > >I don't want this to be the email that starts a huge issue. Spilt milk!!! Its Over!!! Its just that what was done in this case was nothing more than a successful point padding attempt by a club and is simply not very sporting -- and EVERYONE/EVERY CLUB knows it. > >Bill Gornicki >CRAFT Hombrew Club >Michigan > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >***** Important Subscriber Information ***** > >To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. >Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. >Make sure you use a meaningful subject. >Quote only as much material as is needed for context. > >To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html >or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. >JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge > > ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ Webmail provided by InfoToGo.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Harsh Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:06:46 -0400 Subject: 1st round entering / Beer and Sweat 2006 Bill Gornicki points out: > AHA Great Lakes Regional and it looks like...What??? Jamil > Zainasheff from QUAFF is the BIG "Winner"??? If you look at the results, you'll notice an asterisk next to Jamil's name that indicates the following: >> * Entrants who were part of their regional staff are required to >> enter their beers in another region. So while I don't understand why that requirement exists - effectively saying that you can't enter a competition you run - it does appear to be directly within the rules. Comments on the reason for that rule would be in order, IMO. I would hope that some requirement for you to enter in your region would be in the rules. And for the record, if I knew anybody personally who tried to game the system in this way, I would taunt him or her endlessly - and for the record, I don't know Jamil and it doesn't seem he deserves the taunting at present. ------------------------------- Mark your calendars for the world's largest competition, based on volume of entered beer! Beer and Sweat 2006 is set for August 19th in Cincinnati. If you don't know, Beer and Sweat is an all keg competiition. Further details to be announced, but you and your beer are expected to be there. Last year we had over 200 kegs entered. Dave Harsh (dharsh`at`fuse.net) Cincinnati, OH Bloatarian Brewing League ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Regional Results Boy, talk about sore losers. Did you happen to notice that without any of Jamil's 66 points, QUAFF has more points than any other club??? The NHC organizers *require* that organizer staff send their beers to other regions so that there is not any possiblity of orgniizers cheating. They make the rules, not QUAFF. We will adhere to any rules the NHC staff sets up and still give any club a run for their money. Jamil would have done the same no amtter where his beers were judged. He is a a fantastic brewer. The NHC rules limits the number of points any one club can get in a particular category to 12. In fact, Jamil *lost* some points because QUAFF brewers also medalled in the same categories he did and QUAFF ended up being limited to a max of 12 points in the category. We would have swept the category no matter where Jamil entered his beers. Every club plays under the same rules. We have no unfair advantage except close to a hundred really great brewers. It's not like it was a fluke. We have consistently taken the Homebrew Club of the Year for 5 years in a row. We are just *really* good brewers. Stop your whining and put your energies on brewing and entering lots of good beers next year. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Toys: '86 4x4 PU, '98 4Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Colby Sheridan Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:50:20 -0400 Subject: Sending AHA NHC entries to other regions Bill: Was Jamil involved in organizing or supporting the AHA regionals in CA? If so, he had to send his entries out of region for judging per AHA NHC rules. Personally, I don't know if he was or not, however I got the impression from your email you don't know, either. Note, I've never met Jamil, or a single member of QUAFF. I have no reason to defend them, other than the fact that I found your email pretty inflamatory.. Perhaps someone on copy can clarify if Jamil was involved in the West Region's AHA NHC organization. I'm curious to hear if he was or not. I do know the organizers in my region (south) sent their entries elsewhere for judging to be fair. Does that make them point pimps, too? Colby Sheridan Covert Hops Society, Atlanta, GA Foam Rangers, Houston, TX BJCP - Certified ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Wilson Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 08:25:06 -0700 Subject: Organizers entering the AHA region of their choice Regarding Bill Gornicki rants about Jamil Zainasheff's entries: First off, why are you assuming that the Great Lakes region has a smaller number of entries, or is a "weaker" region? Those two states have twice the population of the entire AHA NW region. 90% of the AHA Northwest entries are from two states (well, depending on whether the Alaskans decide to bomb us that year or not!) Wouldn't Jamil be blatently gathering points by entering in the Northwest (where he usually does?) too? The AHA tries to even out the region sizes, based on previous years' number of entries and what those sites can handle. So I think you're crying in your beer about nothing. Looking at Jamil's results, he doesn't look any more or less successful than when he's entered the NW region. It's a big enough penalty on the regional organizers that they have to ship their beers, when I'm sure he would much rather drop them off locally and save the $$ like many many other entrants do. Regards, Mark Wilson ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark W. Wilson mwilson`at`agora.rdrop.com Portland, OR http://www.rdrop.com/users/mwilson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Glass Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:31:07 -0600 Subject: RE: Regional Results Before everyone gets too excited about this issue, please review the National Homebrew Competition Rules & Regs, Part III Section B located at www.beertown.org/events/nhc/pdf/NHC06_rules.pdf. The issue of clubs with members entering in multiple regions has come up before with a different club and a different set of circumstances. As a result, a cap was placed on the number of points a club could earn in a single category. No club can earn more than 12 points per category regardless of where their entries are judged. This is the maximum number of points any club could earn in a single region's judging (6 points for first place, 4 points for second place, and 2 points for third place). We do require that the Site Directors and Judge Coordinators for each regional competition submit their entries to a different region (which means they have to pay for shipping their entries, despite all of their efforts devoted to putting on an outstanding competition) to avoid any sense of a conflict of interest. Believe me, if we did not do this, we would be fielding emails from other entrants in the West region complaining that Jamil, as Site Director had an unfair advantage and shouldn't be allowed to enter in the region he is responsible for running! I know this from six years of experience as director of the NHC. The truth is that the clubs that are in real contention for the AHA Club of the Year award are the clubs that submit the most entries and that have consistently high quality entries, PERIOD! QUAFF does not continue to win the Club of the Year award year after year because they work around the rules. They win because the entries they submit are of very high quality, and they enter a lot of them. QUAFF has volunteered their time hosting a regional competition for the past several years. This year, members of the QUAFF club helped run TWO regional sites. Now that's dedication that other clubs should seek to emulate! Before we start disparaging any particular individuals, I think we'd all benefit from relaxing and having a homebrew. Jamil puts out more effort to benefit homebrewers than just about anyone I know. In addition to running a National Homebrew Competition regional site, which is a tremendous amount of work for very little reward, he also serves on the AHA Governing Committee, and helps the BJCP with programming issues. He has served as the site director for the Second Round of the NHC as well. Plus he brews more homebrew than anyone I know! We do make changes to the Rules & Regs each year because there is always room for improvement. We certainly welcome suggestions on how to make the competition better. Keep in mind that we do have to look at potential changes from every angle to make sure they don't end up causing more harm than good! I'd like to thank all of the volunteers, judges, stewards and entrants in the National Homebrew Competition for making it such a great competition! Cheers! Gary Glass Director American Homebrewers Association 888-U-CAN-BREW (303) 447-0816 x 121 gary`at`brewersassociation.org www.beertown.org =20 Register now for the AHA National Homebrewers Conference in Orlando June 22-24 - the most fun that can be had in homebrewing! Early-bird registration deadline is May 15! See www.beertown.org/events/hbc/index.html. -----Original Message----- From: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest [mailto:judge`at`synchro.com] Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:03 PM To: Digest Recipients Subject: Digest for the period 5/8/2006 - 5/9/2006 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Regional Results20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gornicwm`at`earthlink.net Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:33:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Regional Results WOW!!! Well, the results are back from the AHA Great Lakes Regional and it looks like...What??? Jamil Zainasheff from QUAFF is the BIG "Winner"??? On one hand I say: Michigan and Illinois? Brew better beers!!! Compeition is always good if done in a consciences and sporting manner. Still...on the other hand: Talk about a guy (and a club) using a weakend system to his advantage. He'd rather ship beers cross country to a two state regional rather than compete with his fellow clubs in surrounding states. I want to thank Jamil and QUAFF for showing their true colors. Never have I seen a more blatant attempt to gather points in all my years with the AHA and BJCP (7). No rules against cross country entries for organizers, so maybe Jamil and QUAFF should be commeneded for exposing this and this could be corrected in the future. Possibly, organizers should provide their entries to the region closest to their home region. I am VERY surprised that this was not in the original rules -- then again you really don't think people/clubs would behave this way, either. I don't want this to be the email that starts a huge issue. Spilt milk!!! Its Over!!! Its just that what was done in this case was nothing more than a successful point padding attempt by a club and is simply not very sporting -- and EVERYONE/EVERY CLUB knows it. Bill Gornicki CRAFT Hombrew Club Michigan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Important Subscriber Information ***** To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. Make sure you use a meaningful subject. Quote only as much material as is needed for context. To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jamilz`at`citlink.net Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 19:35:41 +0000 Subject: RE: Regional Results Bill, It appears that you?re not familiar with one of the NHC rules. A club is only awarded a maximum of 12 points per category, one first (6 points), one second (4 points), and one third (2 points). This is regardless of the number of wins across all regions. A number of my points will not be counted under this rule. So, saying that I entered in Great Lakes only to get more points for the club is a specious argument, as that is not possible. If you look back over the past years, I believe you?ll find that QUAFF would have won club of the year without my entries. My points and I are generally irrelevant in the club of the year totals. I would not be surprised to find the same thing this year as QUAFF has lots of brewers more talented than me. One thing that is actually bothering me is that you seem to be implying I entered the Great Lakes region because that the brewers in that region are somehow not as good?!? I certainly hope I misread your post and you?re not suggesting that! Many of the best brewers I know are in the Great Lakes region and I find such a suggestion really offensive. If you compare the results from previous years, you?ll see that I generally have a large number of entries going forward to the second round. Last year I was not an organizer, so I was able to enter my own region and I had pretty much the same results as this year. As a matter of fact, I had hoped to enter in the Southwest this year, but there was a very real concern that they would be flooded with entries again this year. (Last year they were the largest region with over 750 entries and that just isn?t right.) The Northwest was very kindly willing to take my entries, but they had a new coordinator that had not done this before and it didn?t seem right to send extra entries to him on his first year. The South region was the largest and again, it is not right to saddle a region with an excessive amount of entries. (They didn?t send their organizer entries to the West for the same reason. We ended up with 591, which was about 100 more than anticipated.) I asked the Great Lakes organizer if it would be OK if I entered there and they had no problem with it either. They?re an experienced group with lots of great judges and we thought it would not be as much of a hardship on them as the other regions. Those folks that know me personally will know that this was my main concern in determining where to send my entries. Everyone likes to think their region is run the best, but the truth is all of the sites do a wonderful job and have excellent judges. I would be happy to enter any region and would gladly accept the results from any region. Being involved in the NHC for the past several years, I was trying to do the right thing for the other organizers as we all know how difficult it can be when you get far more entries than anticipated. As far as shipping goes, once you have to go through the hassle of boxing and shipping entries, it doesn?t really matter much if you?re shipping them to Texas or to Ohio. The price difference is minor. I?m really sorry competition brings out such worries of malfeasance from some people. I hope this clears up any misconceptions. The NHC and all the volunteers involved are of the highest caliber and ethics. I would never doubt any of the people involved. JZ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dr. L.A. Swihart Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 17:33:23 -0400 Subject: BJCP number Hiya -- If it's a bother, or a thing that has been asked and everybody except me knows the answer is NO, well then, sorry. But if not, then is there a way to get my number so I can use it on judging forms, even though it might be weeks (or months) before I get my score back? (My understanding, which I hope is correct, is that I get a number and can call myself Apprentice no matter what, right?) Thanks, Linda ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 22:38:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Regional Results I'm not going to get into the ethics of which region Jamil (or anyone else) enters, but by entering so many beers, he did manage to take almost 1/4 of the award places in the Great Lakes region. His club may only get a maximum of 12 point per category, but by entering (and winning) in another region than his home club, he does effectively block other clubs from getting points for placing in that region. Look at it this way (forgive me if my numbers are not exact, but you will get the idea): There are 10 regions to enter beers. 26 categories, three places in each category (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). That is 78 awards for each region, 780 awards total for the first round. If Jamil entered in his own region, he would be in competition with his own club, and would likely beat out some of his fellow members, and place in his own region. The maximum number of awards that QUAFF could get in this circumstance is 78. By allowing him to enter beers in another region, his club can still take 78 awards in his own region, while he has the opportunity to take 78 more awards for his club in another region. This is not only about getting points for Homebrew Club of the Year, it is also about preventing other clubs from getting points. QUAFF has the opportunity to monopolize 156 awards (20% of the total), while other clubs only have 78 awards (10% of the total) to work with. And if he is in another region winning with his beers, the other clubs have less of a chance to win. He obviously brews good beers, and I don't fault him for being a better brewer than others, but I do see this as a loophole that allows QUAFF and unfair advantage in points for Homebrew Club of the Year. I must not have a big enough competitive spirit, and I am happy to rest on my laurels. In our club, we have a Homebrewer of the Year competition, and I won this award around 4 years ago. Since then, I have run the competition, and felt no need to compete, even though the rest of the club would have no problem with it. I brew great beer, I won the award once, and could likely win it again. I figure that it is time to let other members win, and have their moment in the spotlight. Jamil won the Ninkasa award (NHC Homebrewer of the Year) in 2004, and if he wants to continue to compete and try to win again, more power to him. Jamil is probably more competitive than I am, and that is alright by me. I just wish it would not skew the possible point accumulation for the Homebrew Club of the Year in the process. It would probably be too much to ask to have the First Round site directors and judge coordinators not compete the years they are running the competition; we would probably have much less volunteers to run the competition. There should be a way to close this loophole, though. By the way, Jamil--you did beat me out in the Bock category this year in the Great Lakes first round (grrr!). Don't worry . . . . I'll be Bock! ;-) Kevin Kutskill Certified BJCP ============================= "Gary Glass" wrote in message news:889013048CEEE14BAF2E6B359EAE3E2EDF93C3`at`aobserver2.aob.org... Before everyone gets too excited about this issue, please review the National Homebrew Competition Rules & Regs, Part III Section B located at www.beertown.org/events/nhc/pdf/NHC06_rules.pdf. The issue of clubs with members entering in multiple regions has come up before with a different club and a different set of circumstances. As a result, a cap was placed on the number of points a club could earn in a single category. No club can earn more than 12 points per category regardless of where their entries are judged. This is the maximum number of points any club could earn in a single region's judging (6 points for first place, 4 points for second place, and 2 points for third place). We do require that the Site Directors and Judge Coordinators for each regional competition submit their entries to a different region (which means they have to pay for shipping their entries, despite all of their efforts devoted to putting on an outstanding competition) to avoid any sense of a conflict of interest. Believe me, if we did not do this, we would be fielding emails from other entrants in the West region complaining that Jamil, as Site Director had an unfair advantage and shouldn't be allowed to enter in the region he is responsible for running! I know this from six years of experience as director of the NHC. The truth is that the clubs that are in real contention for the AHA Club of the Year award are the clubs that submit the most entries and that have consistently high quality entries, PERIOD! QUAFF does not continue to win the Club of the Year award year after year because they work around the rules. They win because the entries they submit are of very high quality, and they enter a lot of them. QUAFF has volunteered their time hosting a regional competition for the past several years. This year, members of the QUAFF club helped run TWO regional sites. Now that's dedication that other clubs should seek to emulate! Before we start disparaging any particular individuals, I think we'd all benefit from relaxing and having a homebrew. Jamil puts out more effort to benefit homebrewers than just about anyone I know. In addition to running a National Homebrew Competition regional site, which is a tremendous amount of work for very little reward, he also serves on the AHA Governing Committee, and helps the BJCP with programming issues. He has served as the site director for the Second Round of the NHC as well. Plus he brews more homebrew than anyone I know! We do make changes to the Rules & Regs each year because there is always room for improvement. We certainly welcome suggestions on how to make the competition better. Keep in mind that we do have to look at potential changes from every angle to make sure they don't end up causing more harm than good! I'd like to thank all of the volunteers, judges, stewards and entrants in the National Homebrew Competition for making it such a great competition! Cheers! Gary Glass Director American Homebrewers Association 888-U-CAN-BREW (303) 447-0816 x 121 gary`at`brewersassociation.org www.beertown.org Register now for the AHA National Homebrewers Conference in Orlando June 22-24 - the most fun that can be had in homebrewing! Early-bird registration deadline is May 15! See www.beertown.org/events/hbc/index.html. -----Original Message----- From: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest [mailto:judge`at`synchro.com] Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 11:03 PM To: Digest Recipients Subject: Digest for the period 5/8/2006 - 5/9/2006 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Regional Results ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gornicwm`at`earthlink.net Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:33:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Regional Results WOW!!! Well, the results are back from the AHA Great Lakes Regional and it looks like...What??? Jamil Zainasheff from QUAFF is the BIG "Winner"??? On one hand I say: Michigan and Illinois? Brew better beers!!! Compeition is always good if done in a consciences and sporting manner. Still...on the other hand: Talk about a guy (and a club) using a weakend system to his advantage. He'd rather ship beers cross country to a two state regional rather than compete with his fellow clubs in surrounding states. I want to thank Jamil and QUAFF for showing their true colors. Never have I seen a more blatant attempt to gather points in all my years with the AHA and BJCP (7). No rules against cross country entries for organizers, so maybe Jamil and QUAFF should be commeneded for exposing this and this could be corrected in the future. Possibly, organizers should provide their entries to the region closest to their home region. I am VERY surprised that this was not in the original rules -- then again you really don't think people/clubs would behave this way, either. I don't want this to be the email that starts a huge issue. Spilt milk!!! Its Over!!! Its just that what was done in this case was nothing more than a successful point padding attempt by a club and is simply not very sporting -- and EVERYONE/EVERY CLUB knows it. Bill Gornicki CRAFT Hombrew Club Michigan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Important Subscriber Information ***** To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. Make sure you use a meaningful subject. Quote only as much material as is needed for context. To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Important Subscriber Information ***** To post a message to JudgeNet, send it to judge`at`synchro.com. Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments. Make sure you use a meaningful subject. Quote only as much material as is needed for context. To manage your subscription, go to http://synchro.com/judge/subscriptions.html or send an email to judge-request`at`synchro.com with the subject: help judge. JudgeNet is also available as an NNTP newsgroup, go to news://news.synchro.com/synchro.judge