Subject: Digest for the period 5/16/2005 - 5/17/2005 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:01:07 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Feedback and Evaluation (Kevin Pratt) 2. RE: Anybody can judge?!!! (Brian Lundeen) 3. Judges and brewing (MeadGuild`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Pratt Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 04:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feedback and Evaluation > the idea of judging commercial beers to BJCP guidelines is so ludicrous > >snip< I couldn't imagine entertaining it. Absolute hubris. The > guidelines > are just a specific lens we use to help people > (homebrewers) understand how the process affects the product. They have > nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with whether a beer is "good" or not. Styles are defined because someone brews it, it is thought to be good, becomes popular and is copied. The guidelines are descriptions of overall characteristics of what has evolved up to a point. That point may be historic (lambics, pilsners, and most "English" types) or emerging (double IPA). The guidelines then become a common language between brewer and judge (and consumer). A competition is a very formal way for a brewer to ask my opinion of how accurately the target is hit. With the common language, we then have the ability to define "good." > Thinking we can apply these styles to commercial beers after the fact > (i.e. the > beer were not brewed to style as we assume competition beers are) is, as > my > Japanese friend says "rudicrous" and shows a complete lack of > understaning of > the purpose and scope of styles. Go ahead, tell a commercial brewer his > barley > wine does not fit the BJCP style guideline. Or better yet a Belgian > brewer! Go > ahead, tell Mr. Hale that if only he added all little light-struck > flavor to > his beer it would be better. When asked, I will offer my opinion about how closely a beer is to style guidelines. However, BJCP guidelines are just one of several writeups of style, but it happens to be the one I am most familiar with. My tasting skills to define aromas and flavors, their causes and relative effects would crossover to any set of guidelines. My opinion is not arrogant, but it is informed and experienced. Many years ago, it seems most professional brewers entered competitions for the marketing effect of a few ribons and medals. They weren't about to change a recipe because of some judges' opinion. In fact, if they didn't win, nobody even knew they entered anyway. So now, many commercial competitions don't even write up the beers. My recent discussions with professional brewers has found that to a person, they'd like to get the written feedback. The reason is simple: this is a form of direct QC with customer feedback. It answers a variety of questions. If it didn't win, why? Do they have a packaging issue? Are there undetected flavor flaws (brewers get palate fatigue and miss things, too)? I cannot impress enough that the guidelines describe style, but do not limit it! But when evaluation is involved, there must be a common language and understood target for it to be valid. Kev Pratt BJCP National Assistant Director BJCP Continuing Education Program __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Lundeen Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:45:12 -0500 Subject: RE: Anybody can judge?!!! > From: Jon Tobey Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:49:56 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: Brew the Judger (Stephen Neilsen) > > > I was having a bit of fun, but I think you missed my point. > Anybody who can read can evaluate beer to style. That's right, ANYBODY can judge. Well, except for the estimated MILLIONS of people in the US who suffer from smell and taste disorders. It is ignorant comments like that that really set off a friend of mine, who is anosmic. He CAN'T judge, because of his physical limitations. So just from that aspect alone, your statement is proven wrong. Even those who have adequate physical functionality can't just sit down at a judging table and evaluate a beer. How many people do you figure would look at the guidelines then turn to the judge beside them and ask, what's an IBU? That's right Jon, EVERYBODY does not know what an IBU is, let alone have the knowledge to determine if the bitterness they are tasting falls into the specified range. Similarly, EVERYBODY can't just look into a tasting glass and tell if the colour (yes, coloUr!) falls into the specified range, or the alcohol level, or.... Are you catching my drift here? You can't just look at words on a piece of paper and leap into beer evaluation. I'm not BJCP, but I have been involved with organized amateur winemaking here in Canada for enough years to realize just how badly entries can be judged when you think that just ANYBODY can do the job. Cheers Brian ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MeadGuild`at`aol.com Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:37:18 EDT Subject: Judges and brewing It is difficult to imagine someone who can judge without brewing. As I mentioned once before I won a beer tasting contest 20 some years ago by correctly identifying 13 out of 15 beers. But I had previously tasted all of the beers at some point in time. If someone had placed a drop of Tabasco in the St. Pauli Girl Dark, it is unlikely that I would have identified the beer or its defect. I have found that brewing is a matter of trying new ideas and learning from mistakes. I had a terrific Ovaltine Peppermint Mead. When I cleared it, it tasted like two chemicals trying to hide. The nice part of Mead is you can store it and mistakes are one day drinkable. Brew and learn Dick ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************