Subject: Digest for the period 5/1/2005 - 5/2/2005 Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 01:02:04 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: On Judging Experience . . . (Ed Westemeier) 2. Re: Horrible scoresheets (Mike Dixon) 3. Re: Horrible scoresheets (Kevin Kutskill) 4. RE: Horrible scoresheets (Denis Barsalo) 5. Re: Horrible Scoresheets (lazyeye) 6. Horrible Score sheets (Jon Tobey) 7. Re: Horrible scoresheets (Kevin Kutskill) 8. Re: Horrible Scoresheets (John C. Tull) 9. Re: Horrible Scoresheets (Britt Weiser) 10. RE: Horrible Score sheets (Dwight Bradish) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Westemeier Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 04:53:08 -0400 Subject: Re: On Judging Experience . . . On May 1, 2005, Jeff Rea wrote: > I recently took the BJCP test but > have yet to hear back results. As I was filling out the judging form > today, I > was trying to figure out what box to check relative to my judging > experience. I am an experienced judge, having judged five or six > competitions in the > past years. But since I have no BJCP rank or number yet, I can't lay > claim to > any BJCP level. I'm not a novice/apprentice. Would I be > "Experienced (but > not in BJCP)" until I get my number? You could reasonably mark it in either of two ways. a. The "experienced but not in BJCP" would be accurate and descriptive. b. The BJCP policy is that as soon as you take the exam you can call yourself a "BJCP Recognized" beer judge. Once you get your scores, that may either be confirmed or change, but in the interim, that's your "rank." Ed Westemeier BJCP Communication Director ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:08:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Horrible scoresheets After reading the note from Ed, I checked out the bad scoresheets http://www.bjcp.org/horrible.html They are absolutely bottom of the barrel. The non-member might be excusable, but the BJCP judge should have directed the other judge to fill in the white space and to score the beer. What little the BJCP judge did write is darn near illegible and there was no score given. > From: Ed Westemeier > I'd like to ask readers for your input. What should the BJCP do (if > anything) about this sort of situation? At the very least the judges, both of them, should get no points at this competition for their judging. Mainly because they did nothing. Perhaps the BJCP judge just passed the exam, but if their sheet looked like that when they took the exam I am very surprized that they passed. I often hit a loss for words while judging, but somehow muddle through. My goal, and the one I suggested at a recent comp where I was judge director, is to fill in the white space with comments you would want to see if you had entered the beer. Cheers, Mike Dixon BJCP National Wake Forest, NC ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Kutskill Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:40:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Horrible scoresheets >"Ed Westemeier" wrote in message >news:ec7e18ad97e8ea9ab65a1d35e3c5e187`at`malz.com... > > Obviously, some judges and organizers are great, while others are less > conscientious, but these judges and this organizer failed miserably, IMHO. > > I'd like to ask readers for your input. What should the BJCP do (if > anything) about this sort of situation? Letters should be sent to both the judge and organizer. I do have a level of sympathy for the organizer (not much, but a little), because organizing a beer competition is a BIG job, and this is all voluntary. But part of the organizers job _has_ to be supervising the judges and their scoresheets, and correcting problems as they come up. So, a letter to the organizer, strongly reminding him or her to look at the judges scoresheets as they come in during the day, making sure there is a level of completeness and thoroughness to the scoresheet. On the other hand, I have NO sympathy for the judges that filled out those scoresheets. As mentioned on the BJCP website, one of the judges was not BJCP (not a real excuse, but could be cut a little slack). The other judge was a BJCP Recognized Judge--NO excuse for such a poor scoresheet. In the homebrew and craftbrew world, the BJCP is looked upon as a reputable organization that can be relied upon to provide thorough and consistent evaluation of craft-brewed beers. Scoresheets like this completely undermines what the BJCP has been working toward since its inception: recognition as an organization that can train and endorse judges for in-depth evaluation and feedback on beers. There is absolutely nothing on the Recognized Judge's scoresheet that the brewer can use as advice to improve his recipe and/or brewing techniques. There is no feedback, with the exception of letting the brewer know that he didn't win. A strongly worded letter should be sent to this judge, stating that scoresheets such as these are completely unacceptable, and if the judge was to continue returning these kind of scoresheets, his or her judging certification would be revoked. Kevin Kutskill BJCP Certified Judge ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Denis Barsalo Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:49:50 -0400 Subject: RE: Horrible scoresheets This is indeed a touchy subject and you must be careful what is intended by "horrible". The examples given are indeed in that category. One or two word comments in only some of the categories is not what one would accept from a beer judge, let alone someone who claims to be a certified or recognized beer judge. The surprising thing about the examples given is that both those beers scored in the 30s. Often those kinds of sparse comments are found on beers that are scored 13-19. The BJCP needs to not necessarily "reprimand" the judge but at least send him/her a letter explaining that those types of score sheets are unacceptable; the competition director also needs to be CC:ed and told that he shouldn't have allowed that score sheet to be returned to the brewer. When I am judging in, or running a competition and see that kind of scoresheet, I hand it back to the judge and tell him that he needs to do better than that. We often receive entries from across the country which means the brewer went to a lot of trouble and expense to get his beers entered. The very least the judge can do is take the time to truly critique the entrant's beer. I think it's partly the competition director's responsibility, as well as each and every one of us (the BJCP membership) to make sure this kind of scoresheet does not end up back in the hands of the brewer. It reflects badly on every one of us! Denis Barsalo Montreal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Westemeier Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:55:41 -0400 Subject: Horrible scoresheets An entrant in a recent large competition received a couple of scoresheets back that were so unbelievably bad that we put them on our website. Go to www.bjcp.org/news.html and click on the link in the first item to see them. Obviously, some judges and organizers are great, while others are less conscientious, but these judges and this organizer failed miserably, IMHO. I'd like to ask readers for your input. What should the BJCP do (if anything) about this sort of situation? Ed Westemeier BJCP Communication Director ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lazyeye Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Horrible Scoresheets It's pretty hard to believe that someone in our community could be so out-of-touch and calloused and to submit these scoresheets. That individual has no business judging beer in competitions and should be put on notice by the appropriate offical to either get with the program or don't bother showing up any more (yeah, I know, empty threats). I expect a letter to that person explaining why a judging point WON'T be put on that judge record would be the most effective action. Equally disturbing is the competition organizer whose lack of organizaton caused these scoresheets to be accepted, computed and sent on to the entrant. Stewards should have been instructed to not accept incomplete scoresheets. Those tallying the scoresheets should have rejected the sheets and sent them back to the table by the steward for completion. Those responsible for mailing scoresheets to entrants should have reviewed them, bringing the problem to the organizer's attention so that a refund of entry fees could be provided. Ultimately, the organizer failed in his/her duties and should be put on notice that should such a thing occur in the future, further competitions organized by that individual will be rejected by the BJCP for recognition. In addition, organizer points should not be awarded for this competiton. I suppose a diciplinary policy should be debated by the Board of Representatives of the BJCP. Norman Dickenson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Westemeier Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:55:41 -0400 Subject: Horrible scoresheets An entrant in a recent large competition received a couple of scoresheets back that were so unbelievably bad that we put them on our website. Go to www.bjcp.org/news.html and click on the link in the first item to see them. Obviously, some judges and organizers are great, while others are less conscientious, but these judges and this organizer failed miserably, IMHO. I'd like to ask readers for your input. What should the BJCP do (if anything) about this sort of situation? Ed Westemeier BJCP Communication Director Lord help me to be the person my dog thinks I am. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Tobey Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Horrible Score sheets Well, the actual link is: http://www.bjcp.org/horrible.html And while those are bad, they are mostly bad from lack of information. I've got much worse examples in my files because the judges spent so much time giving bad information. Usually, I'm prompted to ask if the judges even have a copy of the guidelines. Funny that the BJCP actually posted these. I 've been contemplating a "Hall of Shame" page for www.homebrewfair.com, but thought the backlash would be heavy. Jon Tobey Ideastream 360-793-8831 "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them." - Alfred Whitehead ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Kutskill Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:17:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Horrible scoresheets "MDixon" wrote in message news:SYNC16E79F09`at`synchro.com... > > I gotta inquire if anyone truly has time to look at 600+ scoresheets on > the > day of a competition. I have never organized a competition (probably a sign that I should shut my mouth right now), but if I were to run one tomorrow, I would spent 1-2 minutes with the stewards, asking them to keep an eye out for scoresheets like this, and bring them to my attention if they saw one. Kevin Kutskill BJCP Certified Judge ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John C. Tull Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 13:27:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Horrible Scoresheets Yep, those are pathetic. As an organizer of our competition in Reno that had 162 entries this year, I do see this happen occasionally. Our local judge pool includes several non-BJCP folks that sometimes do not have the vocabulary to put together a solid scoresheet (or even a good one). This problem in not limited to non-BJCP people unfortunately. I generally know who these people are, and I seat them with other judges that are strong to offset their performance. I never allow a flight to be judged without at least one quite competent judge. I also do not wish to tell someone that they cannot judge, because I hold out hope that they will get better. Sometimes I will tell people to provide more feedback on a sheet during the event. As far as doing anything, I think it would be great if the program would send letters to people that are reported as doing a less than adequate job on a scoresheet, given that the actual scoresheet is provided (as in the examples). I would limit this action to criticisms of the length of content alone, not the quality (who's to say the entrant is not simply disgruntled about the results of a competition). In the examples online, I would send each judge a letter explaining that they failed to meet their obligations as BJCP judge for that event along with a paragraph about the need to provide the entrant with substantive feedback. (They did go through the effort of entering and pay for the feedback after all.) I would cc the organizer any such letters. It might be worthwhile to withhold their BJCP points for the event, but this may be better suited for a repeat offense. If the problem occurs frequently under the watch of an organizer, it may be necessary to not sanction that organizer's future competitions or withhold organizer points. John On Apr 30, 2005, at 10:04 PM, JudgeNet - the beer judge digest wrote: > From: Ed Westemeier > Date: April 30, 2005 7:55:41 AM PDT > To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest > Subject: Horrible scoresheets > Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" > > > > An entrant in a recent large competition received a couple of > scoresheets back that were so unbelievably bad that we put them on > our website. Go to www.bjcp.org/news.html and click on the link in > the first item to see them. > > Obviously, some judges and organizers are great, while others are > less conscientious, but these judges and this organizer failed > miserably, IMHO. > > I'd like to ask readers for your input. What should the BJCP do (if > anything) about this sort of situation? > > Ed Westemeier > BJCP Communication Director > ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Britt Weiser Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:36:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Horrible Scoresheets > Ed Westemeier wrote: > An entrant in a recent large competition received a couple of > scoresheets back that were so unbelievably bad that we put them on our > website. What should the BJCP do (if > anything) about this sort of situation? I agree with Ed -- those scoresheets were unacceptable. I recommend the judge be sent a letter, with copies of the score sheets they filled out, explaining to them that this is unacceptable feedback for a beer entrant. Mention that their score sheets will be monitored (1 year?) and that if their completion of the scoresheets does not improve, they may lose their BJCP certification. In addition, the board may want to establish a policy and/or amend the bylaws to clearly establish how to handle this situation in the future. Sections 2.5 and 2.6 of the bylaws address termination of membership (for not being active) and for refusual of membership. I would recommend a section 2.7 that addresses poor judge performance. Britt Weiser Certified ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dwight Bradish Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 20:23:50 -0700 Subject: RE: Horrible Score sheets I agree with John from over the hill, in Reno. Letters to the judges, and warning about future point deletion. As for the organizers, I believe cc-ing the letter is enough. An organizers job is ridiculously demanding and for the most part largely thankless. They spend many, many hours doing all sorts of jobs, including registration, usually. The last thing you want to do is alienate organizers by taking points from them. Just like Kevin K. said, "I would spend 1-2 minutes with the stewards, asking them to keep an eye out for score sheets like this, and bring them to my attention if they saw one." This is appropriate, but if the steward overlooks one score sheet, or two, an organizer likely won't catch it until later, when he is not so extremely busy and has time to inspect them more closely at his leisure. By that time the judges are usually long gone. We need as many competent organizers as possible so we can keep participating in our hobby. I was an organizer for a BJCP sanctioned competition today (WCBF), with 222 entries. It was a commercial one (so this particular score sheet issue was not a concern), but it still took 40+ hours to do all the oranizer work I've done so far up to this time, and I'm not finished yet. We had 43 judges and 11 Stewards, plus cellar staff also. Until a person has organized a competition, most people have no idea of the work involved. A homebrew competition is even harder to organize, so I have great sympathy for the homebrew organizer some people are trying to put the blame on. He may be ultimately responsible, but to take points from him is very drastic, severe, and may scare him and other people away from wanting to spend all the hours organizing if they get nothing, because of an oversight. I say again, reprimand the judges with warning letters, cc the organizers, then dock the judges a point when warnings don't work. Then leave the poor organizers' points alone, they have enough to worry about. Dwight Bradish BJCP National ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************