Subject: Digest for the period 4/29/2005 - 4/30/2005 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:03:42 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Real beer (Ed Westemeier) 2. Guinness here vs there (Francisco Jones) 3. Guinness here and there (Daniel McLaughlin) 4. Guinni (Jon Tobey) 5. Re: The Purpose of the BJCP and Guinness (George Perrin) 6. Guinness in Ireland, circa 1985 (Moum, Alan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Westemeier Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:12:03 -0400 Subject: Real beer On Apr 29, 2005, Tom Schmidlin wrote: > what's > not real beer? It is still unclear to me if this is the CAMRA sense > of the > word, or is a dis against mass-produced swill. A fair question. If it were the former, then we would be restricting ourselves to an extremely tiny subset of the world's output of beer. That would be silly. If it were the latter, then we would be announcing that we're the experts, but we're going to ignore 90% of the world's output of beer. That would be equally silly. Perhaps it would be more easily understandable if we changed "real" to "better" or some equivalent word. Personally, I'm a great lover of real ale, and travel to England whenever possible (generally annually) to enjoy it. But I'm also a judge at the GABF and other commercial competitions, and find both pleasure and meaning in evaluating the products of the the big guys. So, since I didn't write that line, I'll just venture a personal guess at its meaning. Take the phrases in question, and divide it into parts: "promote beer literacy" involves developing an understanding of the brewing process, beer styles, and the surrounding technologies (packaging, dispensing, serving, etc.) and communicating that knowledge more widely, to the general beer drinking public. "appreciation of real beer" involves (among other things) recognizing the inherent superiority of "craft beer" (both home brewed and commercially brewed) over the mass market products. It also involves communicating and spreading the pleasure associated with the "better" beer. Note that this does not denigrate the mass market beer. Suppose you were a steak judge instead of a beer judge. You'd naturally spend more of your time tasting and enjoying and writing about a prime porterhouse at a fine restaurant than the cube steak in the supermarket freezer. There's nothing wrong with the cube steak, and you can appreciate it, but it's not your main focus. Is it "real steak" or is the porterhouse just "better steak?" Or is it just semantics? Anyway, good question, and worth discussing. Ed ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francisco Jones Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:13:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Guinness here vs there >So is there anyone out there who has had Guinness on a regular basis in the >US for the last 15 years or so who noticed a change in the Guinness served >here? It can't just be that I was drunk the entire time I was in Ireland, >because I was at least sober for that first pint. I took a lot of data points in Ireland in the last 4 months, and I haven't noticed much difference (between Irish and US) either. Perhaps the draft product in Ireland is just a tad fresher tasting, maybe a hint more soft fruitiness. But any difference is certainly not striking. Now here I am comparing witht the canned widget product available here in the US, and with US draft. The old bottled Guinness tasted much different than Irish draft. But I have noticed this effect with other beers. Draft Bass in England is a _totally_ different beer than the bottled Bass in the US. I was stunned the first time I had draft Bass in country. Francisco Jones Kankakee, IL ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Daniel McLaughlin Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:25:13 -0400 Subject: Guinness here and there Hi gang, My first time posting here and want to first say hello to everyone. My name is Dan McLaughlin from New York. Grew up in NYC and now live on Long Island. Board member of Brewers East End Revival (BEER). I have been brewing for over 20 years, have judged on and off for many years and finally took the BJCP exam last year with good results, a 78! Now, on to the Guinness.... I do have to agree with you Tom on the taste of Guinness in Ireland and in the U.S. They are the same to me with the only difference possibly being in freshness. Those poor kegs in shipyards and shipping containers takes it toll but Guinness does travel well. Now, if you ever get the chance to go to the caribbean on vacation, try a Guinness there. It is brewed under contract by Carib Brewing Co on the island of St Kitts. Now this is a different animal. The aroma is a little maltier than it's European brethren thought the hop aroma remains the same. It's the body and flavor that knocks you over. The body is fuller and syrupy. The flavor is sweet as opposed to dry. I assume this is to appeal to caribbean palates and the abundant use of cane sugar in beverages there. Three sides of the Carib Brewery is surrounded by sugar cane fields with the fourth being the Caribbean Sea. Putting the Caribbean version in a competition would have to be as a Sweet Stout rather than a Dry Stout. I do like the Carib version but I view it as a different beer from the Irish version. Anyone else out there that has tasted a Guinness brewed elsewhere in the world? >Now let me switch gears for a minute. Al brought up something interesting >- >"I learned Guiness tasted different in England and Ireland than the >stuff >they imported and sold here." > >Has anyone else had this experience? ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Tobey Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Guinni Tom, There was a recent article on this in Yankee Brewing News (they actually get this at the Bayou). Guiness indeed is brewed differently for different markets, one of the most surprising things is that the beer for the continent is brew to the German purity laws. In fact, even here the bottled Guiness and the tap Guiness are not the same recipe. Bottled Guiness has much more alcohol. Not sure where the cans fall into this mix. I found this pretty obvious that the recipes are different when I was at an "Irish" bar in Barcelona a couple of weeks ago. All told, I think there are 6 or 8 recipes for it. The fact that you can't tell just goes to the skill of the brewers. But in fact, many mega-breweries vary their recipes almost daily based on the commodities market (rice goes up, barley goes down) and claim they have a lot of variation over time, but smooth it by blending consecutive batches. Tell that to a die hard Bud fan. I've been thinking about talking to the local distributor to set up a Guinni tasting with as many different types as we can get. I agree, BJCP should just eliminate the term "real" because CAMRA already uses that and unless we step up with a definition, its at best cheesy, at most confusing. Look at Westmalle 12, made with wheat start, pellets, and sugar, and considered one of the best beers in the world. But for the love of beer man! Is it real? Finally, as to the hyperserious nature of this site and your failed to attempt to interject humor into the santified discussion of beer, well I can tell you mister that just won't fly! If you feel you must do this in the future, I suggest, nay insist, on begin and end joke tags so that those of us interested only in serious, literal beer conversation need not be distracted by your silly antics. ;-) Jon Tobey Ideastream 360-793-8831 "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them." - Alfred Whitehead ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Perrin Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:56:48 -0400 Subject: Re: The Purpose of the BJCP and Guinness Tom Schmidlin asks about differences between Guinness Stout in the US and Ireland. I was in Ireland in 2001 and can say that I noticed a difference. In fact, not only did I notice a difference in Guinness between the US and Ireland but I noticed a slight difference between Guinness in the east versus the west of Ireland. I haven't noticed a change in Guinness on taps in the US over time, though. It was awhile ago but the simplest way to describe it was that it was "freshest" on the eastern part of Ireland, closest to it's birth place, with minimal acidic quality. In Galway, on the west coast, it was slightly less "fresh" and slightly more acidic with the lactic being alittle more prominent. And all the Guinness I drank in Ireland was noticeably (at least to me) "fresher" than in the US. I remember the Guinness in Ireland being less acidic overall with less lactic "bite" than I detect in Guinness here in the US. And in the Guinness in Ireland, the malt seemed more prominent, probably because of the lower acidity. I wasn't looking for a difference but noted it after returning to the US. Could it be that Guinness starts out just alittle sour and becomes more acidic as it ages/ travels? This could account for these differences. There are jokes in Ireland, alluding to the perception (fact to some) that Guinness doesn't travel well, about an inability to get a decent pint of Guinness north of the Liffey- the river running through Dublin afew blocks from the brewery! ;-) Slainte, George Perrin BJCP National Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:03 AM, JudgeNet - the beer judge digest wrote: > From: Tom Schmidlin Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 01:26:31 -0700 > Subject: RE: The Purpose of the BJCP and Guinness > > Now let me switch gears for a minute. Al brought up something > interesting - > "I learned Guiness tasted different in England and Ireland than the > stuff > they imported and sold here." > > Has anyone else had this experience? I've 'appreciated' many a > Guinness in > the US, and took a trip to the Emerald Isle in the fall of 2003. My > brother, who had been there in 1992, told me that the Guinness was > different, and I've heard it many times from others, so I was really > looking > forward to this. To my surprise, in 2003, I didn't think it was > significantly different at all. So, assuming that I have half decent > taste > buds (and as a National judge, that should be safe, right?) where is > the > disconnect here? Has the Guinness in Ireland changed? Or has the > Guinness > in the US changed? > > I almost never had Guinness on tap in the US before 1997, but had it > regularly at my local pub trivia night for several years after that. > The > taste is pretty well ingrained in my mind. Actively looking for a > difference, I found it to be remarkably similar over there. Actually, > the > biggest surprise was the taste of the Budweiser there, which was > smooth, > creamy, and pleasant (although that was after appreciating many pints > of > Guinness, so . . .) And while the pubs there were serving "Guinness > Extra > Cold", that wasn't much different either - once it warmed up. I > actually > talked to several old Irish guys about this, and you know they've been > drinking it since before I was born. They swear it hasn't changed. > > So is there anyone out there who has had Guinness on a regular basis > in the > US for the last 15 years or so who noticed a change in the Guinness > served > here? It can't just be that I was drunk the entire time I was in > Ireland, > because I was at least sober for that first pint. > > Thanks, > > Tom Schmidlin ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Moum, Alan Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:46:19 -0700 Subject: Guinness in Ireland, circa 1985 I understand there are several different versions of Guinness brewed in different areas of the world. There's even a primarily sorghum version from Nigeria that is much bigger than the usual versions, and last I heard they were considering importing some into Ireland to let folks try it. Wish they'd send us some. I haven't been to Ireland since 1985 and my taste buds and beer appreciation levels have radically changed since then, but I could have sworn the Guinness poured throughout the Emerald Isle back then was thicker and more lactic than that poured here. It certainly was more of a chore to pour over there at that time. Each pint glass would have to be topped off between 2-5 times, then after the head would settle they'd top it off again until it was full to the brim with beer and just a hint of foam on top. This made for a ridiculously attractive train of pint glasses circling around the bar on busy nights. There's something to be said for anticipation I guess. But good publicans seemed to have the system dialed in perfectly and never quite run out of full glasses except at the very busiest hours. The one pour nitro system we have here in the States is certainly easier for bartenders (and the wavy fallout of the beer from the foam is a trip for both kinds of hopheads), but it also tends to guarantee the beer is still keg fridge cold. If the warmer temperature acquired during a pint's several trips around the bar was the only difference between their Guinness and ours then vive la difference. Still, I much prefer Beamish. Slainte m'hath, Alan J. Moum ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************