Subject: Digest for the period 4/4/2005 - 4/5/2005 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:03:23 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: BJCP Unfair (Steve Piatz) 2. Re: > 1. BJCP Unfair (Kevin Cotter) (Bob Paolino) 3. Re: BJCP Unfair (John C.Tull) 4. paying homebrew fair judges (Jon Tobey) 5. RE: Digest for the period 4/3/2005 - 4/4/2005 BJCP Unfair (Ted Hausotter) 6. re: Recategorizing entries (Brian Lundeen) 7. Re: Digest for the period 4/3/2005 - 4/4/2005 (Antony Hayes) 8. Re: Digest for the period 4/3/2005 - 4/4/2005 (doak`at`procter.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Piatz Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:35:28 -0500 Subject: Re: BJCP Unfair > From: Kevin Cotter Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:42:39 -0700 > Subject: BJCP Unfair > > > I would personally love the opportunity to take the BJCP exam, the only > problem is that it is impossible to get anybody to come to the state of > Arizona and proctor the exam. We have been turned down a few times. For the > life of me, I cannot figure out why we can't attract a cold-climate judge to > Phoenix for the winter months, or March, when we have the Cactus League MLB > Spring Training? > > Last year, we did have a couple of our club members journey to Los Angeles > to take the exam, not all of us could make it. That's a fun one to explain > to the wife: "I have to fly to another state, with food and lodging, to take > a beer-test." I couldn't make it due to other logistal issues, but she still > made a mad chase to buy 40 more pair of shoes to even things out?!?! > > Just what are the requirments to have the exam proctored anyways? We'll > still problably have to spend a thousand bucks traveling to another state to > have the opportunity to take the exam. > > Kevin Cotter > Arizona Society of Homebrewers > http://members.cox.net/~krcotter > While still not on the BJCP webpage (that's my fault), a recent addition to the BJCP exam schedule is an exam in Mesa, AZ on June 5, 2005. The contact for that exam is Ken Saxe (ken`at`homebrewdepot.net). As for the requirements for scheduling a BJCP exam (see http://www.bjcp.org/examschproc.html) * We want to have a National (or higher) rank judge to adminster the exam. * We need two additional judges capable of writting National-level or better score sheets. These score sheets need to be very good since they become the reference on hte exam beers for the graders. * We want to have 5 or more people for the exam. Scott Bickham (the other Exam Director) and I try to be flexible on the requirements where possible. We realize that it is not always possible to meet all the requirements but unless someone takes the initiative to ask us about scheduling an exam we can't do anything. -- Steve Piatz piatz`at`cray.com BJCP Exam Director West ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Paolino Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:00:38 -0400 Subject: Re: > 1. BJCP Unfair (Kevin Cotter) Kevin Cotter wrote on Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:42:39 -0700: > I would personally love the opportunity to take the BJCP exam, the only > problem is that it is impossible to get anybody to come to the state of > Arizona and proctor the exam. We have been turned down a few times. For the > life of me, I cannot figure out why we can't attract a cold-climate judge to > Phoenix for the winter months, or March, when we have the Cactus League MLB > Spring Training? Spring Training is certainly an attraction, but please understand that there are many of us who enjoy living in cold-climate regions and would NEVER consider wanting to live where we would be denied the joys of snow, cross-country skiing, and all the beauty of winter :-) > Last year, we did have a couple of our club members journey to Los Angeles > to take the exam, not all of us could make it. That's a fun one to explain > to the wife: "I have to fly to another state, with food and lodging, to take > a beer-test." I couldn't make it due to other logistal issues, but she still > made a mad chase to buy 40 more pair of shoes to even things out?!?! > > Just what are the requirments to have the exam proctored anyways? We'll > still problably have to spend a thousand bucks traveling to another state to > have the opportunity to take the exam. > Kevin Cotter > Arizona Society of Homebrewers > http://members.cox.net/~krcotter Well, what have you done to make it possible for a potential exam administrator to do the same (but in opposite direction) travel that you are finding prohibitively expensive and inconvenient? Tell ya what... fly me out to Tucson (sorry, not Phoenix ;-) ) and I'll give the exam (I'm BJCP National). I'll even take care of my own lodging arrangements. But I'm not holding my breath. Think Nimbus, Drink Nimbus! Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino "Are Canadians just Americans who carry hockey sticks instead of guns, or is there more to it than that?" --"This Canadian Existence" Wisconsin Public Radio ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X against HTML e-mail: / \ Friends don't send friends HTML-bloated messages! A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top-posting frowned upon? ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John C.Tull Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:58:08 -0700 Subject: Re: BJCP Unfair There are folks like myself, in Reno, that would come out with enough notice and perhaps gas money and lodging (maybe an America West ticket is cheaper with gas prices these days). I would be quite surprised if you could not get some folks out from LA or San Diego though. You only need a proctor? You already have the exam administrator lined up? The program can use a portion of the exam fees to cover transportation for the proctors and EA, as well as covering the cost of the materials and the location, if necessary. There is a cap, but I do not remember the breakdown. Others will set it straight. Best, John > From: "Kevin Cotter" > Date: April 2, 2005 11:42:39 PM PST > To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest > Subject: BJCP Unfair > Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" > > > > I would personally love the opportunity to take the BJCP exam, the only > problem is that it is impossible to get anybody to come to the state of > Arizona and proctor the exam. We have been turned down a few times. > For the > life of me, I cannot figure out why we can't attract a cold-climate > judge to > Phoenix for the winter months, or March, when we have the Cactus > League MLB > Spring Training? > > Last year, we did have a couple of our club members journey to Los > Angeles > to take the exam, not all of us could make it. That's a fun one to > explain > to the wife: "I have to fly to another state, with food and lodging, > to take > a beer-test." I couldn't make it due to other logistal issues, but she > still > made a mad chase to buy 40 more pair of shoes to even things out?!?! > > Just what are the requirments to have the exam proctored anyways? We'll > still problably have to spend a thousand bucks traveling to another > state to > have the opportunity to take the exam. > > Kevin Cotter > Arizona Society of Homebrewers > http://members.cox.net/~krcotter > > > "Kevin Pratt" wrote in message > news:<20050402150828.10362.qmail`at`web41822.mail.yahoo.com>... >> Comments are inline. >> >> First, I urge you to take the BJCP exam at your earliest opportunity. > Even if you can >> only sign your name and answer question one, it is worth your while. >> You > obviously have >> an interest and passion for this, which is sought after by the BJCP. >> >> Again, accessability is what I think you're asking about. Yes, the > program is designed >> to be accessable to even the smallest regions of judges. We do not >> have > chapters, per >> se, but we do rely on both beer clubs and event organizers to make the > sessions >> available. The program intent is to have a wide range of topics and > maximum >> participation. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Tobey Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: paying homebrew fair judges Actually, I just thought the brewers should come for free and the judges should pay $50 for the experience. Jon Tobey Ideastream 360-793-8831 "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them." - Alfred Whitehead ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ted Hausotter Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:59:01 -0700 Subject: RE: Digest for the period 4/3/2005 - 4/4/2005 BJCP Unfair Proctor needed Kevin, I understand you are frustrated in not finding a proctor when needed. If you are wanting to continue, put a proctor wanted out over the judge net. Usually the test organizer finds the proctors and then the BJCP makes sure they are OK. I would consider cashing in some air miles to help out proctoring. Most judges that know you need help will also want to help out. If I remember right, you need to find National or above judges. Talk with your exam coordinator. Send me an e-mail if you want help. Ted Hausotter Master BJCP Judge Baker City, OR ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Lundeen Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:13:02 -0500 Subject: re: Recategorizing entries > From: Spencer W. Thomas Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:46:58 -0500 > Subject: Re: Recategorizing entries =20 > If we moved the beer, the same beer might end up getting judged twice in > the same category. =20 I can see where judges would want to avoid the potential for embarrassment that this situation presents. I mean, if the same judge scored the same entry in the same class differently, the explanation of bottle variation would only take you so far. If a judge can not repeatedly judge a beer with a reasonable level of consistency in the attribute scoring and comments, I would think the entrant who got back two conflicting score sheets would have valid reason to question that judge's abilities. At the very least, it would raise a big question mark about how procedures affect beer scoring. The characters of the beers that have been judged prior, palate fatigue, perhaps just the desire to get through those last couple of entries and get home, these could all be having an effect on the score a beer receives. So what steps do judges take to ensure that every entry receives a fair and accurate judging? Do you actually train on achieving reproducible judging results? How many judges have the confidence in their ability to pass the "entered twice" test? =20 Brian ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Antony Hayes Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:05:47 +0200 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/3/2005 - 4/4/2005 Kevin Cotter states "I would personally love the opportunity to take the BJCP exam, the only problem is that it is impossible to get anybody to come to the state of Arizona and proctor the exam." We flew a proctor out to save the cost of a trip to the US. We are very happy that we got our money's worth. Ant Hayes Johannesburg ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: doak`at`procter.com Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:03:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/3/2005 - 4/4/2005 I have hardly a clue why I want to toss my hat into this ring, but here goes. With any luck, I may speak for a few others who either do not have the time or the desire to do the same. I take great comfort in Kevin Pratt's repeated statements that any CEP program in the BJCP will be optional. In enjoy brewing, and I enjoy judging. Both are important to me, and I hope to keep doing them for a long time. However, I have enough obligations and demands on my time. I do not want any more. Brewing and judging are among my hobbies, and I prioritize them accordingly. I practice both voluntarily, just like the rest of us. If brewing were nothing but another chore, I would not do it. Likewise, should judging ever become onerous, I will quit. For the gentleman who proposed mandatory competition entries and those who agree with him, listen up. I agree that good brewers usually make good judges, so long as they write down what they are thinking. However, entering competitions does not make one a good brewer. It may be some evidence of a diligent brewer, but that's where it ends. I'm a good brewer and a good j udge. Not great, and not bad. Just good. However, in over ten years of brewing, I have never entered a competition. Chances are, I never will. While I enjoy going to competitions and judging at them, I just do not think of entering one as fun. I hate to think that I would have to stop judging just because I did not want to compete. I know of other good judges and I know of some great judges who do not compete. While they may have competed at one time, they now have enough obligations and enough demands on their time where entering a competition just does not sound like fun. I would hate to lose them from the ranks, as well. All that said, I am all for the CEP as I have seen it described by those putting it together, and I look forward to seeing it in action soon. Doak Procter BJCP Certified Foam Rangers ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************