Subject: Digest for the period 3/30/2005 - 3/31/2005 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:03:58 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Best of Philly entries now being accepted! (Joe Uknalis) 2. Re: slave to the guidelines (Francisco Jones) 3. Re: to Alan Moum Mislabeled beers, etc. (Jon Tobey) 4. RE: homebrew fair (Brian Lundeen) 5. Re: Judging/CEP (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Uknalis Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:55:57 -0500 Subject: Best of Philly entries now being accepted! For our competition on April 16, 2005 See http://www.hopsclub.org/ for entry details, (deadline 4/9/05) judging and stewarding opportunites! thanks Joe ---------- ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Francisco Jones Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:38:03 +0300 (GMT+03:00) Subject: Re: slave to the guidelines Alan Moum said: >I just subscribed to this list yesterday and received my first digest >of postings. Very interesting stuff. Ahem, yeah, it's not usually quite this active.... =:^) >Many people note an overemphasis on style and its effect on beer scores, >but given the practical limits of judging hundreds of beers it's hard to >avoid this. ..... >I myself often fall into the "style trap" while judging beer and visiting new breweries, etc. ..... >Some of the best beers I've ever tasted didn't fit any previously defined styles and I hope >this doesn't prevent their brewers from continuing with that beer, or >seeking more completely original (or hybrid) brews. I do know of a >few craft brewers that changed great brews to more properly fit a style >(sometimes with competitions in mind) and thus reduced the excellence >of their beer. This issue comes up over and over. But "what I'm going to brew today" is totally and exclusively a personal decision. The BJCP is a non-regulatory entity, and as such does not dictate what folks should be brewing. The fact that the BJCP exists, that competitions are held, and that some folks both judge and brew, does not restrict anyone from going crazy brewing whatever they like to drink, or brewing whatever wacky "style-guildelines-be-damnned" experiments they want. All that being said, however, if a brewer expects to do well in a competition, that person is a slave to the style guidelines, period. As Alan stated above, there's really no way around this. The guildelines provide a necessary benchmark to the judging, and _establish_ (not just enhance) judging consistency and legitmacy. You have to have something standard to compare to. All of that stuff is the reason the BJCP was formed. And even still, nothing about the style guidelines prevents a brewer from entering a wacky beer in "experimental" (or any other category, for that matter) just get some good feedback. The key here is the expectations of the brewer when they enter a beer in competition. Brew what you want, and enter at your own discretion. In America, we have the feedom to choose. Just my two cents. Francisco Jones Kankakee IL BJCP Certified ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Tobey Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:23:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: to Alan Moum Mislabeled beers, etc. Good to see hou here. Alan, regarding the ability of judges to move mislabeled beers, not getting styles right (many of which brewers have never heard of) is a big disconnect in competition. At the Homebrew Fair, the judges will help pick the styles and eliminate this problem. As far as thinking judges should brew, I've heard a ton of reasons why particular brewers couldn't fit it into their lives, but no compelling reason why it isn't a good CEP idea. BTW, the BJCP has mentioned it is looking at the Homebrew Fair, or something of that type, as a potential CEP candidate. Jon Tobey Ideastream 360-793-8831 "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them." - Alfred Whitehead ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Lundeen Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:20:04 -0600 Subject: RE: homebrew fair > From: Moum, Alan Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:18:50 -0800 > Subject: Homebrew Fair > > I don't know if you have talked about a pending event in > Seattle called the Homebrew Fair (homebrewfair.com, April 9). > Instead of a traditional homebrew competition the idea is to > get the judges and brewers to sit down together and discuss > the beer, not just to produce a delimited score sheet and > point score. It will demand more time from judges and > brewers but it can be of great benefit to both. How often do > judges get feedback about their judging? Jon Tobey is the > founder and organizer of this event and as such I'm sure he's > been giving much abstract and practical thought to the whole > field of beer judging lately. Hmm, maybe Jon's "ideastream" needs a control gate on it. So far, he's 0-2. ;-) I think this is a great idea... As long as the judges are viewed as consultants, and paid at an appropriate rate for their time for this one-on-one brewing tutelage. Maybe something along the lines of: $100/hr for beer analysis $150/hr for listening to the entrant explain that his friends think the beer tastes just like the commercial beer he was cloning, that a brewing book he just read proves that he is right and the judges are wrong, and/or pathetic whining about how this wasn't worth $100/hr =20 $250/hr for listening to the entrant throw a hissy fit about the judges' abilities, their parentage and their taste in clothing and hair styles At those rates (plus travel and housing costs, of course) you should have no trouble attracting judges to this event. Cheers Brian, BJCP wanna-be ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:25:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Judging/CEP > I still think that giving CEP points for competitionis a good idea because, all > things being equal, brewers will be better able to help people make better > beer. I know for myself, when I was only judging and not brewing, I felt very > ineffective and actually returned to brewing to become a better judge. I think brewing _can_ help someone become a better judge. (And remember, brewing is not the same as entering competitions.) I just don't think the improvement is automatic. I think the things that make a good judge are: 1) Identifying qualities and problems in beers. 2) Identifying potential solutions and improvements. 3) Effectively communicating this information to the brewer. These three things will not necessarily be improved by brewing yourself. What judges need instead is _feedback_. Judge with those more experienced than you. Crack open a beer with someone who has a different palate and compare what they say to what you think of it. Practicing giving feedback to fellow homebrewers in person. Put your contact info on scoresheets. Read scoresheets that people think are very good examples (and a couple that people think are very bad). I think Jon Tobey's homebrewfair is an excellent idea and will be a good opportunity for judges to get some live feedback on how effective they are. (I wish I still lived in Western Washington.) -Travis A2, MI ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Manage your subscription online: http://synchro.com/judge * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************