Subject: Digest for the period 4/21/2004 - 4/22/2004 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:04:50 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Draft SG Forum: Special thanks to Gordon & Co. (Alan Hord) 2. South Shore Brewoff - updated info for judges and stewards (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI) 3. Re: Threaded JudgeNet (Mike Bennett) 4. Re: BJCP email policy, Judging variance (David Houseman) 5. Re: Category 24 (David Houseman) 6. Re: email policy, hosting on Yahoo (Thom Cannell) 7. New web entry system (Ted Hausotter) 8. Draft BJCP Guidelines (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 9. Re: BJCP Email (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 10. Re: Threaded JudgeNet (Chuck Cox) 11. highest scoring beer not winning? (Bryan L. Gros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Hord Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:59:00 -0700 Subject: Draft SG Forum: Special thanks to Gordon & Co. This message was sent to the BJCP Draft Forum Admin on Mon, April 19, 2004 1:06 am (I elected to make this public by choice) and is as follows... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just a short thought... It might be fruitful to have a catch-all general area where folks can post generic questions or thoughts. For instance - Complements: On the face of it, you guys have obviously worked very hard on many different spectrums and acted on large variety of input; truly this is a very impressive and comprehensive body of data! I'm smiling broadly as there is just so many well thought-out solutions to knotty issues. Is this a bug: My post is dated an hour earlier. You might want to check the server or look at the forum settings to be sure the timestamps are set correctly. Contribution: I will work to provide sanity-checking on the language, lurk for typos, and validate that commercial examples cited in my region are still in production. Teaching the Old Dog: We have a lot to do! Our Club is hoping to start teaching classes again next January. I think it would be fruitful to devote a section to education. Maybe this is not the goal of this site, but certainly a persistent and interactive forum would be more functional than a once every-so-often JudgeNet post :o) Exceptional Thanks: You have initiated a good thing here ~ you have my vote to continue as this is a very welcomed step forward! Cheers and hats off to a marvelous and grand effort! ~Alan (National Near Seattle) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:33:38 -0400 Subject: South Shore Brewoff - updated info for judges and stewards Hi All, It has recently been brought to my attention that the mailing address for the competition judge coordinator (Steve Rose) printed on the judge and steward registration form is no longer valid. If you are planning on judging or stewarding, please contact Steve ASAP via the email address or phone number listed instead of mailing the form. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. Geoffrey McNally Competition Organizer ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Bennett Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:42:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Threaded JudgeNet "Chuck Cox" wrote in message news:5.2.1.1.2.20040420141152.0322ca38`at`192.168.1.100... > As an experiment, I am making JudgeNet available via NNTP. Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!! This makes it SO MUCH easier to read. Will the posts ever expire? -- Mike Bennett Head Brew Dude, Southside Speakeasy, Salem OR Recognized BJCP Beer Judge [1958, 287.1] Apparent Rennerian mjbefn.org ....Give a man a beer, he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.... ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Houseman Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:15:54 -0400 Subject: Re: BJCP email policy, Judging variance I suppose SPAM is any unwanted email, but I'll take a narrower viewpoint and say that it's unwanted email from organizations or for products I don't know or care about. Any email I get from an organization with which I have a relationship I don't consider SPAM. I may or may not be interested in what the IEEE, Amazon, EBAY or the ACM have to say to me this month, but I don't consider this SPAM, just un-interesting email. With the BJCP moving to almost all email communications (we're stopping the physical annual mailings for example), then we do need to improve our communciations to members. Email is the most realistic alternative. JudgeNet is not since only one in four BJCP judges is on JudgeNet directly. Web information must be there but most of us may not go look for new and timely information without prompting --- the push email model works more effectively IMHO. We need to be sure we have a valide email address for all members and a means of pushing email to them. Supporting the ability to opt out of communications from us would be good for those that just don't want to get all the emailings. Hopefully there won't be many people who would opt out of communications from an organization if they are active members. Dave Houseman ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Houseman Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:22:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Category 24 Bill, How any particular competition organizes their competition categories is up to them, not the BJCP. Maybe not everyone realizes this fact. Categories and sub-categories are usually shuffled and re-combined based on the number of entries in each subcategory. This usually occurs in all but the largest competitions. Whenever a specific style isn't called out by the BJCP or the local competition then Category 24 has been the catch-all. But this is up to the local competition. It will always be true since the BJCP doesn't cover all the world's styles or their permutations. Obviously when the BJCP created the Imperial IPA and Irish Red Ale styles, it assigned them to a category/sub-category, but it will still be up local competitions whether they stay there for the purposes of judging and ribbon categories in specific competitions. Dave ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Cannell Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: email policy, hosting on Yahoo RE: Email policy and hosting at Yahoo - I think this is a very bad idea. If you take the time to wade through the privacy statement you'll find they share data with third parties. And you have to periodically drill down, find the parties, do the notification dance. It's not enough, with Yahoo, to check the "don't bother me" box. Thom Cannell Cannell & Associates 1650 Lindbergh Dr. Lansing MI 48910-1820 517-371-2058 FAX 413-431-9601 MOBILE 517-896-3098 T_Cannell`at`compuserve.com CannellAndAssociates`at`comcast.net ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ted Hausotter Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:31:24 -0700 Subject: New web entry system Last week I had the opportunity to use the new web entry for contest organizers. Worked great. Thanks Gordon for your effort on the new system. It took me less time to knock the paperwork out than before. Allocation of points will be more accurate and easier for the contest organizers. Only glitch I had was when I entered a total of 3 sessions and had to go back and change it to 4. The system had me reenter all the data on the first page (only 5 to 10 entries). Great improvement to the BJCP. Ted Hausotter Contest Organizer, Slurp & Burp Open _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Draft BJCP Guidelines I have only had the opportunity to skim the new guidelines, and there seems to be many much needed changes. However, I have one comment from an organizational standpoint. The new guidelines have some VERY significant renumbering of categories in the low numbers. I can see this causing enormous problems to competitions from brewers who use the wrong set of guidelines. In fact, I think it may take years for the ripples to die down. Could there have been any way to make the category numbers more like they used to be, and merely add subcategories to represent the newly added styles. Yes, we always provide the brewers with a copy of the guidelines we choose to use for AFCHBC on our web site, but I am sure that many brewers will merely pick up their copy of the old guidelines without bothering to read that the guidelines have had radical changes. I guarantee that for several years, this is going to cause major headaches at bottle check-in for major competitions. The break out of the meads is a wonderful direction to go. This allows mead makers to enter more meads. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Toys: '85 4Runner, '86 4x4 PU ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: BJCP Email It was suggested by someone that we use Yahoo as a forum for BJCP. I would tend to fight this tooth and nail so that it never happens. Frankly, Yahoo Groups is 1) less than adequate and 2) slimy. Reasons follow: 1) Each group has a fixed quota. When messages come in with a full quota, old messages are deleted. This makes permanent archives useless. 2) Every Email and every web based message has spam in it. 3) When you sign up for Yahoo Groups, unless you know where to look (and it is buried deeply) and know *to* look, the default "marketing preferences" allow Yahoo to collect statistics about you and to share your information with "marketing partners". In other words, Yahoo will sell your information to spammers. SLIME, SLIME, SLIME. This is not just hearsay, I run 3 Yahoo Groups, not from desire to do so, but from it being the only alternative at the time. I am quite familiar with Yahoo Groups. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Toys: '85 4Runner, '86 4x4 PU ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chuck Cox Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:33:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Threaded JudgeNet At 03:42 AM 4/21/2004, Mike Bennett wrote: >This makes it SO MUCH easier to read. Will the posts ever expire? No. FYI: It is not necessary to send your message to both the newsgroup and digest. Any message posted via either mechanism will show up in both places. -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems chuck`at`synchro.com, cccox at fas.harvard.edu, www.synchro.com Bush: less freedom & more spending. Kerry: more spending & less freedom. The choice is obvious. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:03:28 -0700 Subject: highest scoring beer not winning? > Bob Paolino wrote: > >Alan Hord wrote on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 09:05:18 -0700: > > > could be done as you have described ~ and resolve the issue of adding > up the > > scores to get the final average score :o) > > > > On that note: This has been an issue before - the ownership of adding up > > scores. Given, this would place a dependency on the data entry person > > rather than the lead judge to determine winners. Rhetorically, the > >I may be missing something, but why would you do this, or even want >to? The final score given to an entry is an _assigned_ score, not an >_average_ score. The assigned score may be (indeed, if often) the same as >the mean of the judges' scoresheets, but it does not have to be. > >Nor does the high mean score determine the winners. I've heard of this, but have never been able to understand it. With a single panel of judges scoring a single flight of beers, should they not score better beers with higher scores than not-so-good beers? And if so, the best beer should have the best average score? I've been on panels where we went back and re-tasted the top scoring beers. In some of these cases, the panel decided the rank of beers should be different than the scores would indicate. I've never been sure whether this situation was due to mis-scoring the first time around, or to changes in the beers as the bottles sat opened and half-full. If the numeric score doesn't mean anything, why do we have it? could't we just describe the beer and offer feedback and not bother with numbers? I acknowledge that if different judges are scoring beers, as in BOS or mini-BOS, then the numbers go out the window and the winning beer may well not have the highest score. We chalk that up to some judges scoring higher than other judges. Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 4/21/2004 - 4/22/2004 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:04:50 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Draft SG Forum: Special thanks to Gordon & Co. (Alan Hord) 2. South Shore Brewoff - updated info for judges and stewards (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI) 3. Re: Threaded JudgeNet (Mike Bennett) 4. Re: BJCP email policy, Judging variance (David Houseman) 5. Re: Category 24 (David Houseman) 6. Re: email policy, hosting on Yahoo (Thom Cannell) 7. New web entry system (Ted Hausotter) 8. Draft BJCP Guidelines (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 9. Re: BJCP Email (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 10. Re: Threaded JudgeNet (Chuck Cox) 11. highest scoring beer not winning? (Bryan L. Gros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Hord Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:59:00 -0700 Subject: Draft SG Forum: Special thanks to Gordon & Co. This message was sent to the BJCP Draft Forum Admin on Mon, April 19, 2004 1:06 am (I elected to make this public by choice) and is as follows... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just a short thought... It might be fruitful to have a catch-all general area where folks can post generic questions or thoughts. For instance - Complements: On the face of it, you guys have obviously worked very hard on many different spectrums and acted on large variety of input; truly this is a very impressive and comprehensive body of data! I'm smiling broadly as there is just so many well thought-out solutions to knotty issues. Is this a bug: My post is dated an hour earlier. You might want to check the server or look at the forum settings to be sure the timestamps are set correctly. Contribution: I will work to provide sanity-checking on the language, lurk for typos, and validate that commercial examples cited in my region are still in production. Teaching the Old Dog: We have a lot to do! Our Club is hoping to start teaching classes again next January. I think it would be fruitful to devote a section to education. Maybe this is not the goal of this site, but certainly a persistent and interactive forum would be more functional than a once every-so-often JudgeNet post :o) Exceptional Thanks: You have initiated a good thing here ~ you have my vote to continue as this is a very welcomed step forward! Cheers and hats off to a marvelous and grand effort! ~Alan (National Near Seattle) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:33:38 -0400 Subject: South Shore Brewoff - updated info for judges and stewards Hi All, It has recently been brought to my attention that the mailing address for the competition judge coordinator (Steve Rose) printed on the judge and steward registration form is no longer valid. If you are planning on judging or stewarding, please contact Steve ASAP via the email address or phone number listed instead of mailing the form. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. Geoffrey McNally Competition Organizer ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Bennett Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:42:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Threaded JudgeNet "Chuck Cox" wrote in message news:5.2.1.1.2.20040420141152.0322ca38`at`192.168.1.100... > As an experiment, I am making JudgeNet available via NNTP. Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!! This makes it SO MUCH easier to read. Will the posts ever expire? -- Mike Bennett Head Brew Dude, Southside Speakeasy, Salem OR Recognized BJCP Beer Judge [1958, 287.1] Apparent Rennerian mjbefn.org ....Give a man a beer, he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.... ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Houseman Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:15:54 -0400 Subject: Re: BJCP email policy, Judging variance I suppose SPAM is any unwanted email, but I'll take a narrower viewpoint and say that it's unwanted email from organizations or for products I don't know or care about. Any email I get from an organization with which I have a relationship I don't consider SPAM. I may or may not be interested in what the IEEE, Amazon, EBAY or the ACM have to say to me this month, but I don't consider this SPAM, just un-interesting email. With the BJCP moving to almost all email communications (we're stopping the physical annual mailings for example), then we do need to improve our communciations to members. Email is the most realistic alternative. JudgeNet is not since only one in four BJCP judges is on JudgeNet directly. Web information must be there but most of us may not go look for new and timely information without prompting --- the push email model works more effectively IMHO. We need to be sure we have a valide email address for all members and a means of pushing email to them. Supporting the ability to opt out of communications from us would be good for those that just don't want to get all the emailings. Hopefully there won't be many people who would opt out of communications from an organization if they are active members. Dave Houseman ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Houseman Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:22:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Category 24 Bill, How any particular competition organizes their competition categories is up to them, not the BJCP. Maybe not everyone realizes this fact. Categories and sub-categories are usually shuffled and re-combined based on the number of entries in each subcategory. This usually occurs in all but the largest competitions. Whenever a specific style isn't called out by the BJCP or the local competition then Category 24 has been the catch-all. But this is up to the local competition. It will always be true since the BJCP doesn't cover all the world's styles or their permutations. Obviously when the BJCP created the Imperial IPA and Irish Red Ale styles, it assigned them to a category/sub-category, but it will still be up local competitions whether they stay there for the purposes of judging and ribbon categories in specific competitions. Dave ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Cannell Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: email policy, hosting on Yahoo RE: Email policy and hosting at Yahoo - I think this is a very bad idea. If you take the time to wade through the privacy statement you'll find they share data with third parties. And you have to periodically drill down, find the parties, do the notification dance. It's not enough, with Yahoo, to check the "don't bother me" box. Thom Cannell Cannell & Associates 1650 Lindbergh Dr. Lansing MI 48910-1820 517-371-2058 FAX 413-431-9601 MOBILE 517-896-3098 T_Cannell`at`compuserve.com CannellAndAssociates`at`comcast.net ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ted Hausotter Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:31:24 -0700 Subject: New web entry system Last week I had the opportunity to use the new web entry for contest organizers. Worked great. Thanks Gordon for your effort on the new system. It took me less time to knock the paperwork out than before. Allocation of points will be more accurate and easier for the contest organizers. Only glitch I had was when I entered a total of 3 sessions and had to go back and change it to 4. The system had me reenter all the data on the first page (only 5 to 10 entries). Great improvement to the BJCP. Ted Hausotter Contest Organizer, Slurp & Burp Open _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Draft BJCP Guidelines I have only had the opportunity to skim the new guidelines, and there seems to be many much needed changes. However, I have one comment from an organizational standpoint. The new guidelines have some VERY significant renumbering of categories in the low numbers. I can see this causing enormous problems to competitions from brewers who use the wrong set of guidelines. In fact, I think it may take years for the ripples to die down. Could there have been any way to make the category numbers more like they used to be, and merely add subcategories to represent the newly added styles. Yes, we always provide the brewers with a copy of the guidelines we choose to use for AFCHBC on our web site, but I am sure that many brewers will merely pick up their copy of the old guidelines without bothering to read that the guidelines have had radical changes. I guarantee that for several years, this is going to cause major headaches at bottle check-in for major competitions. The break out of the meads is a wonderful direction to go. This allows mead makers to enter more meads. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Toys: '85 4Runner, '86 4x4 PU ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: BJCP Email It was suggested by someone that we use Yahoo as a forum for BJCP. I would tend to fight this tooth and nail so that it never happens. Frankly, Yahoo Groups is 1) less than adequate and 2) slimy. Reasons follow: 1) Each group has a fixed quota. When messages come in with a full quota, old messages are deleted. This makes permanent archives useless. 2) Every Email and every web based message has spam in it. 3) When you sign up for Yahoo Groups, unless you know where to look (and it is buried deeply) and know *to* look, the default "marketing preferences" allow Yahoo to collect statistics about you and to share your information with "marketing partners". In other words, Yahoo will sell your information to spammers. SLIME, SLIME, SLIME. This is not just hearsay, I run 3 Yahoo Groups, not from desire to do so, but from it being the only alternative at the time. I am quite familiar with Yahoo Groups. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen Toys: '85 4Runner, '86 4x4 PU ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chuck Cox Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:33:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Threaded JudgeNet At 03:42 AM 4/21/2004, Mike Bennett wrote: >This makes it SO MUCH easier to read. Will the posts ever expire? No. FYI: It is not necessary to send your message to both the newsgroup and digest. Any message posted via either mechanism will show up in both places. -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems chuck`at`synchro.com, cccox at fas.harvard.edu, www.synchro.com Bush: less freedom & more spending. Kerry: more spending & less freedom. The choice is obvious. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:03:28 -0700 Subject: highest scoring beer not winning? > Bob Paolino wrote: > >Alan Hord wrote on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 09:05:18 -0700: > > > could be done as you have described ~ and resolve the issue of adding > up the > > scores to get the final average score :o) > > > > On that note: This has been an issue before - the ownership of adding up > > scores. Given, this would place a dependency on the data entry person > > rather than the lead judge to determine winners. Rhetorically, the > >I may be missing something, but why would you do this, or even want >to? The final score given to an entry is an _assigned_ score, not an >_average_ score. The assigned score may be (indeed, if often) the same as >the mean of the judges' scoresheets, but it does not have to be. > >Nor does the high mean score determine the winners. I've heard of this, but have never been able to understand it. With a single panel of judges scoring a single flight of beers, should they not score better beers with higher scores than not-so-good beers? And if so, the best beer should have the best average score? I've been on panels where we went back and re-tasted the top scoring beers. In some of these cases, the panel decided the rank of beers should be different than the scores would indicate. I've never been sure whether this situation was due to mis-scoring the first time around, or to changes in the beers as the bottles sat opened and half-full. If the numeric score doesn't mean anything, why do we have it? could't we just describe the beer and offer feedback and not bother with numbers? I acknowledge that if different judges are scoring beers, as in BOS or mini-BOS, then the numbers go out the window and the winning beer may well not have the highest score. We chalk that up to some judges scoring higher than other judges. Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************