Subject: Digest for the period 3/25/2004 - 3/26/2004 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:00:53 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Baltic Porters (Gordon Strong) 2. This 'n That (Bev Blackwood II) 3. By the numbers (Richard Stueven) 4. 1. sigh, judge ranks again... 2. Baltic porter (Bob Paolino) 5. AHA First round DATES to go with sites? (Alan Hord) 6. Baltic Porter (Bryan L. Gros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gordon Strong Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:35:47 -0500 Subject: Baltic Porters Bryan Gros asks about why Baltic Porters were added to the new style guidelines. The short answer is that several people requested it, it shows up fairly often at competitions (maybe regionally), it's a fairly well-defined style, and it has numerous commercial examples. So, basically it was easy to do. The AHA didn't request that we do anything in the new guidelines; they thought that choosing the new styles for this year's Big Brew would help publicize the styles and demonstrate good will between organizations. I think it does both. The commercial examples we cited include: Sinebrychoff Porter (Finland), Zywiec Porter (Poland), Baltika Porter (Russia), Carnegie Stark Porter (Sweden), Dojlidy Polski (Poland), Aldaris Porteris (Latvia), Utenos Porter (Lithuania), Kozlak Porter (Poland), Stepan Razin Porter (Russia). And this doesn't include some available examples that we thought were poor (Saku, from Estonia) or excellent ones that are no longer available (Okocim, from Poland). Of all the beers on the list, I was able to find every one except the Dojlidy. And I live in Dayton, Ohio. There are quite a few existing styles that don't have as many decent commercial examples as this style. As an update, we're still on track to wrap up the draft guidelines around the end of this month and then have an open comment period in April and May, followed by finalized guidelines in June in time for a Launch Party the AHA Conference in Las Vegas. Further announcements will be posted here, probably within the next two weeks. Gordon Strong Chairman, BJCP Style Committee (ad hoc) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bev Blackwood II Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:58:41 -0600 Subject: This 'n That Lots of interesting stuff in this digest... > 2. BJCP exam's the problem, not the path (Tim Oborn) I think Tim makes some very valid points in his discussion. I had been told that part of the reason the time limit was in place was to ensure that judges can provide feedback in a short time frame, as if they were at a competition, where time management is an issue. However, I think that if the time restriction was relaxed on the essays and imposed on the tasting portion, then that goal is accomplished without putting so much stress on the essay portion of the exam. Now, there IS the practical matter of your proctor being stuck watching that one last examinee for three hours after everyone else is done. I can see an ultimate time limit that is required just for the benefit of the proctor. I have watched a judging panel take 3 1/2 hours for a 12 beer flight and think that where the countdown timer should be in use is for just the tasting portion of the exam. > 3. 1. Another exam proposal 2. AHA First round DATES to go > with sites? (Bob Paolino) Houston - (South regional) will be April 24th & 25th at Saint Arnold Brewing. See you there Bob! ;-) > 6. new styles (Bryan L. Gros) I had a little bit of this discussion with David Houseman. While I don't have the full rationale for including Baltic Porter in the guideline, I do know we've had commercial examples at our club meetings for the past 3-4 years. It's a style that I'll be brewing with some other folks in our club as well. One thing that I think is a great idea is a "Not in guideline" style guide, for styles that aren't brewed very much (like my perennial favorite, Malt Liquor) but DO have a legitimate definition, complete with commercial examples. That way if a club wants to include a style in a competition, or if you just never thought of brewing something and wanted to try it, you'd have a guideline to work from. (Lord knows it could revolutionize judging Category 24) If the BJCP saw a style becoming increasingly popular, then there could be a move to make it "official." -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II Co-Competition Coordinator The Foam Rangers http://www.foamrangers.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Stueven Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:01:56 -0600 Subject: By the numbers > The numbers are not the be-all to end-all. But they COMPLIMENT the > descriptions that Bill uses and truly illustrate what you mean by "medium to > dark amber", "moderate gravity", and "not excessive bitterness". Excellent point. And it would be *really* useful to extend the numbers to include diacetyl levels. What does "moderate diacetyl" mean? 100ppb? 200? 500? -- Richard Stueven (and don't get me started on "acceptable") Zion, Wisconsin ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Paolino Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:07:57 -0500 Subject: 1. sigh, judge ranks again... 2. Baltic porter [I wrote that graders need to know as much information, including identities of the commercial beers, as an independent check on the proctors' scoring] ...and John C.Tull replied: > The graders of exams are provided with the names of the commercial > beers as well as descriptions of their condition, including notable > flaws, flavors, smells, etc. that the Exam Administrator detects on If it is done according to that rule, great (and we'll assume that the graders will know or can look up the characteristics of those brands...), but as several posts have indicated, everything isn't necessarily done according to specified procedures. > I do not disagree with your point that there are judges with ranks that > they never will live up to in the BJCP. These things happen even in the > most rigorous examination procedures (there are lots of bad lawyers I don't think I was trying to make that point, although there is probably some truth to it. I'm not sure where you got that from what I said, unless it was my agreement that the difference between national and master can be a vast grey area. Yes, sometimes you do have judges of different ranks who are of comparable competence and experience, but one will have a higher rank by virtue of a few more exam points. I would not jump to the conclusion that those higher ranked ones don't "live up to" their judge ranks. Bryan L. Gros wrote: > But can any committee members comment on why Baltic Porter has been added? > Unless it is some advance take on Double or Imperial porter, I don't see > brewers that I know making anything like it, nor any need for it at any > regional competitions. Is it something the AHA wanted? What commercial > examples are readily available? There are a number of Polish and other eastern European porters showing up in the stores and some brewpubs are also making them. Availability may, of course, vary regionally. An Arizona brewer who briefly lived in the Madison area before returning to Arizona had one at my house, asked where I had bought it, and began getting that and similar beers regularly, and was hooked. Guess what I found at the brewery a couple of Arizona visits later? I also discovered at a Tucson package store an entire end shelf with porters (and dark lagers) from Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, and other countries in that region. Think of it, this was in Tucson; just think what you might find in more beer-aware cities. A brewpub exhibiting at a recent festival here in Wisconsin was serving its Baltic porter. Examples of imports: Okocim, Zywiek, Sinebrychoff, Utenos.... I don't know how prevalent they are yet among homebrewers, and short of looking at recipes and vital stats, I'm not sure if you could even get a good answer by asking organisers of large competitions if the category isn't offered and entrants have to pick another category to enter them. I suppose time will tell whether this becomes a popular category, but I'd guess that as more brewpubs start offering them, you'll find homebrewers who like them and will want to start making them. Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino "Homer, why don't you get one of those hands-free phones? It's the next best thing to paying attention to the road." --Barney, The Simpsons ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X against HTML e-mail: / \ Friends don't send friends HTML-bloated messages! A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Hord Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:55:00 -0800 Subject: AHA First round DATES to go with sites? Replying to Bob Paolino: >>Do you have the specific judging dates for each site? In concert with our good friends of the Oregon Brew Crew, the Northwest AHA 1st Round will be split between Portland and Seattle for the first time. I would like to share with you a bit about the Seattle arrangements as the designated Contact and Organizer: Marking the first time in the history of the State, the AHA 1st Round Nationals will be held at the home of one of the largest craft breweries on the West Coast. Volunteers from all corners of this region, we invite you to join us at the following location and dates: Saturday April 24th, and Sunday April 25th, 2004 Seattle Pyramid Alehouse, Brewery & Restaurant http://www.pyramidbrew.com/alehouses/seattle.php 1201 First Avenue South Seattle, WA 98134 Telephone: (206) 682-3377 Please appear at the brewery at 9:30 each morning. We will feature lunch on both days, and as luck would have it there's easy access to a satiable variety of wonderful Pyramid beer just a short trot away. Please register to volunteer for Seattle at: http://www.hordsoffun.com/hbc.rw/judgewiz.aspx?w=03190A302A Thank you for your participation in this grand event! Cheers to one and all! Alan Hord, National near ... :o) AHA 1st Round Organizer - Seattle PS - Complete stats for the 2004 Cascadia Cup will be posted shortly and competition results should be in the mail these weekend for most contestants. Thanks for your patience; it was a record-breaker for the Cascade Brewers Guild! ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:21:44 -0800 Subject: Baltic Porter Thanks for all the replies about my question on the popularity of Baltic Porter. I must be out of the loop! I've never seen one, homebrew or commercial. I'll be on the lookout now. Incidentally, I had a bottle of "Nigerian Guinness" at a pub in London last week. Nice beer. Clearly somewhere between a dry stout and an Imperial Stout (7.8% I believe). I imagine Baltic Porter being something like that but with less roast barley character. Probably available around here, but I just never bought one. - Bryan Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 3/25/2004 - 3/26/2004 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:00:53 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Baltic Porters (Gordon Strong) 2. This 'n That (Bev Blackwood II) 3. By the numbers (Richard Stueven) 4. 1. sigh, judge ranks again... 2. Baltic porter (Bob Paolino) 5. AHA First round DATES to go with sites? (Alan Hord) 6. Baltic Porter (Bryan L. Gros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gordon Strong Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:35:47 -0500 Subject: Baltic Porters Bryan Gros asks about why Baltic Porters were added to the new style guidelines. The short answer is that several people requested it, it shows up fairly often at competitions (maybe regionally), it's a fairly well-defined style, and it has numerous commercial examples. So, basically it was easy to do. The AHA didn't request that we do anything in the new guidelines; they thought that choosing the new styles for this year's Big Brew would help publicize the styles and demonstrate good will between organizations. I think it does both. The commercial examples we cited include: Sinebrychoff Porter (Finland), Zywiec Porter (Poland), Baltika Porter (Russia), Carnegie Stark Porter (Sweden), Dojlidy Polski (Poland), Aldaris Porteris (Latvia), Utenos Porter (Lithuania), Kozlak Porter (Poland), Stepan Razin Porter (Russia). And this doesn't include some available examples that we thought were poor (Saku, from Estonia) or excellent ones that are no longer available (Okocim, from Poland). Of all the beers on the list, I was able to find every one except the Dojlidy. And I live in Dayton, Ohio. There are quite a few existing styles that don't have as many decent commercial examples as this style. As an update, we're still on track to wrap up the draft guidelines around the end of this month and then have an open comment period in April and May, followed by finalized guidelines in June in time for a Launch Party the AHA Conference in Las Vegas. Further announcements will be posted here, probably within the next two weeks. Gordon Strong Chairman, BJCP Style Committee (ad hoc) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bev Blackwood II Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:58:41 -0600 Subject: This 'n That Lots of interesting stuff in this digest... > 2. BJCP exam's the problem, not the path (Tim Oborn) I think Tim makes some very valid points in his discussion. I had been told that part of the reason the time limit was in place was to ensure that judges can provide feedback in a short time frame, as if they were at a competition, where time management is an issue. However, I think that if the time restriction was relaxed on the essays and imposed on the tasting portion, then that goal is accomplished without putting so much stress on the essay portion of the exam. Now, there IS the practical matter of your proctor being stuck watching that one last examinee for three hours after everyone else is done. I can see an ultimate time limit that is required just for the benefit of the proctor. I have watched a judging panel take 3 1/2 hours for a 12 beer flight and think that where the countdown timer should be in use is for just the tasting portion of the exam. > 3. 1. Another exam proposal 2. AHA First round DATES to go > with sites? (Bob Paolino) Houston - (South regional) will be April 24th & 25th at Saint Arnold Brewing. See you there Bob! ;-) > 6. new styles (Bryan L. Gros) I had a little bit of this discussion with David Houseman. While I don't have the full rationale for including Baltic Porter in the guideline, I do know we've had commercial examples at our club meetings for the past 3-4 years. It's a style that I'll be brewing with some other folks in our club as well. One thing that I think is a great idea is a "Not in guideline" style guide, for styles that aren't brewed very much (like my perennial favorite, Malt Liquor) but DO have a legitimate definition, complete with commercial examples. That way if a club wants to include a style in a competition, or if you just never thought of brewing something and wanted to try it, you'd have a guideline to work from. (Lord knows it could revolutionize judging Category 24) If the BJCP saw a style becoming increasingly popular, then there could be a move to make it "official." -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II Co-Competition Coordinator The Foam Rangers http://www.foamrangers.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Stueven Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:01:56 -0600 Subject: By the numbers > The numbers are not the be-all to end-all. But they COMPLIMENT the > descriptions that Bill uses and truly illustrate what you mean by "medium to > dark amber", "moderate gravity", and "not excessive bitterness". Excellent point. And it would be *really* useful to extend the numbers to include diacetyl levels. What does "moderate diacetyl" mean? 100ppb? 200? 500? -- Richard Stueven (and don't get me started on "acceptable") Zion, Wisconsin ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Paolino Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:07:57 -0500 Subject: 1. sigh, judge ranks again... 2. Baltic porter [I wrote that graders need to know as much information, including identities of the commercial beers, as an independent check on the proctors' scoring] ...and John C.Tull replied: > The graders of exams are provided with the names of the commercial > beers as well as descriptions of their condition, including notable > flaws, flavors, smells, etc. that the Exam Administrator detects on If it is done according to that rule, great (and we'll assume that the graders will know or can look up the characteristics of those brands...), but as several posts have indicated, everything isn't necessarily done according to specified procedures. > I do not disagree with your point that there are judges with ranks that > they never will live up to in the BJCP. These things happen even in the > most rigorous examination procedures (there are lots of bad lawyers I don't think I was trying to make that point, although there is probably some truth to it. I'm not sure where you got that from what I said, unless it was my agreement that the difference between national and master can be a vast grey area. Yes, sometimes you do have judges of different ranks who are of comparable competence and experience, but one will have a higher rank by virtue of a few more exam points. I would not jump to the conclusion that those higher ranked ones don't "live up to" their judge ranks. Bryan L. Gros wrote: > But can any committee members comment on why Baltic Porter has been added? > Unless it is some advance take on Double or Imperial porter, I don't see > brewers that I know making anything like it, nor any need for it at any > regional competitions. Is it something the AHA wanted? What commercial > examples are readily available? There are a number of Polish and other eastern European porters showing up in the stores and some brewpubs are also making them. Availability may, of course, vary regionally. An Arizona brewer who briefly lived in the Madison area before returning to Arizona had one at my house, asked where I had bought it, and began getting that and similar beers regularly, and was hooked. Guess what I found at the brewery a couple of Arizona visits later? I also discovered at a Tucson package store an entire end shelf with porters (and dark lagers) from Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, and other countries in that region. Think of it, this was in Tucson; just think what you might find in more beer-aware cities. A brewpub exhibiting at a recent festival here in Wisconsin was serving its Baltic porter. Examples of imports: Okocim, Zywiek, Sinebrychoff, Utenos.... I don't know how prevalent they are yet among homebrewers, and short of looking at recipes and vital stats, I'm not sure if you could even get a good answer by asking organisers of large competitions if the category isn't offered and entrants have to pick another category to enter them. I suppose time will tell whether this becomes a popular category, but I'd guess that as more brewpubs start offering them, you'll find homebrewers who like them and will want to start making them. Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino "Homer, why don't you get one of those hands-free phones? It's the next best thing to paying attention to the road." --Barney, The Simpsons ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X against HTML e-mail: / \ Friends don't send friends HTML-bloated messages! A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Hord Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:55:00 -0800 Subject: AHA First round DATES to go with sites? Replying to Bob Paolino: >>Do you have the specific judging dates for each site? In concert with our good friends of the Oregon Brew Crew, the Northwest AHA 1st Round will be split between Portland and Seattle for the first time. I would like to share with you a bit about the Seattle arrangements as the designated Contact and Organizer: Marking the first time in the history of the State, the AHA 1st Round Nationals will be held at the home of one of the largest craft breweries on the West Coast. Volunteers from all corners of this region, we invite you to join us at the following location and dates: Saturday April 24th, and Sunday April 25th, 2004 Seattle Pyramid Alehouse, Brewery & Restaurant http://www.pyramidbrew.com/alehouses/seattle.php 1201 First Avenue South Seattle, WA 98134 Telephone: (206) 682-3377 Please appear at the brewery at 9:30 each morning. We will feature lunch on both days, and as luck would have it there's easy access to a satiable variety of wonderful Pyramid beer just a short trot away. Please register to volunteer for Seattle at: http://www.hordsoffun.com/hbc.rw/judgewiz.aspx?w=03190A302A Thank you for your participation in this grand event! Cheers to one and all! Alan Hord, National near ... :o) AHA 1st Round Organizer - Seattle PS - Complete stats for the 2004 Cascadia Cup will be posted shortly and competition results should be in the mail these weekend for most contestants. Thanks for your patience; it was a record-breaker for the Cascade Brewers Guild! ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:21:44 -0800 Subject: Baltic Porter Thanks for all the replies about my question on the popularity of Baltic Porter. I must be out of the loop! I've never seen one, homebrew or commercial. I'll be on the lookout now. Incidentally, I had a bottle of "Nigerian Guinness" at a pub in London last week. Nice beer. Clearly somewhere between a dry stout and an Imperial Stout (7.8% I believe). I imagine Baltic Porter being something like that but with less roast barley character. Probably available around here, but I just never bought one. - Bryan Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************