Subject: Digest for the period 3/20/2004 - 3/21/2004 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:01:40 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 3/19/2004 - 3/20/2004 (OudBruin`at`aol.com) 2. re: alternate path (rehmke) 3. Competiton Organizers Reports (Mike Dixon) 4. RE: Proposal (Bill Wible) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:52:18 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 3/19/2004 - 3/20/2004 Re: challange to exam system_ I've been pretty much ignoring the judgenet for the last 18 months or so, simply because like so many of us, it was time to move on.. I also felt that there was a structure as inflexable as found in certain schools of martial arts. ON the top of the pile you have a few GRAND POOBAH's that somehow manage to do well in exams, and yes, they have made certain social contributions... Next are a bunch of black belts that for whatever reason, age, lifestyle, capability just don't quite make it to GRAND POOBAH Finally at the bottom of the stack are the folks who are just starting out, and may not exceed a few exam (belts) simply because of lifestyle, capability and personal inclinatation. I am most please to see that the old written exam and a flight of doctored beers is actually being challanged by some bjcp judges besides myself. NOW, when are we going to certify in style groups. MY biggest bitch has and continues to be; seeing some fool judging, say, Lambics, and saying the product has no hop profile and tastes infected. (granted, a very extreme example) I'm sure everyone of you has had an entry in some catagory, and you know the product was pretty close to spot on.. you know the product should have scored in the high 30 to low 40 range and you get back scores in the low 20's How did your product get such a skewed result? Oh we can blame how you transported the product, how it was stored by competition organisors, what products preeceded it, while we're at it, lets blame the weather and George Bush(he's getting blamed for everything else) Bottom Line, if you had a judge who really had a solid foundation in British Ales, or German Lagers, or Belgie Lambic's and Trapists, I really doubt that a skewed result will happen. (unless the poor sod has a cold or something else) MY 2 cents, worth. See ya at the dojo... ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rehmke Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:28:47 -0800 Subject: re: alternate path I vaguely remember something about disseminating information as being the heart of judging. As for technical skills, we all rise to our own level of incompetence. I have in my possession over a thousand score sheets. They give me a glimpse of the future. Recognized judges that are destined for Master, National judges who will never rise past National. I base that on their ability to disseminate what they know, not what they might know. =20 When judging, I do the best I can to give entrants their monies worth. My written communication skills, being what they are, make Master a goal I may never obtain. But, please don't change the test on my account. I will just work a little harder at it. =20 This all reminds me of the guy whose kid is really smart, but just doesn't test well. Well, if he was so smart wouldn't he figure out a way to test better. =20 Roger Rehmke ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:33:40 -0500 Subject: Competiton Organizers Reports How will the reporting work with comps that are registered through the AHA? Our competition is next weekend and the organizer did it through the AHA will he still be able to send the BJCP report online? Just wondering...if he can, I will let him know. Oh, if anyone desires to help judge or steward, speak up http://www.hbd.org/carboy/shamrock.htm Cheers, Mike Dixon Wake Forest, NC ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Wible Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:30:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Proposal Jeremy Bergsman writes: >Experience points are already in the equation. Likewise, >no "service" (e.g. exam grading) should substitute. The >value of the exam is that it is an independent measure >of a judge's skill--as opposed to participation. I couldn't disagree more, and I'm sure others are going to say the same thing. 1) There's nothing "independent" about the current exam. That's the basis of the complaints. The entire exam is variable, from the questions on each version, to the proctor giving it, (who decides on the beers and also scores them with you. We've had NUMEROUS complaints on that front, where a proctor has given one of his own beers as a test beer, rated it highly, and it wasn't that good of a beer. The questions on each version of the test are different, so it's not even the "same" test from version to version. 2) Some people are very knowledgeable about beer and styles, and can talk your ear off and know what they're talking about, but just cannot take a test. And there have also been numerous complaints about the written part of the test. It's very intense, and way too much writing for people who don't normally do alot of writing. Remember, many of us are tecchies, computer programmers and such. We spend all our time typing, and many of us haven't written anything major for along time. Then we're asked to write 17 pages of legal pads for a timed test in about an hour and a half, and to also fill out score sheets and judge a beer. Yeah, that's intense. My hand was very cramped and hurt for a long time after I took the test. 3) Experience points are factored in as you claim, but only up to a point. But if the exam "is an independent measure of a judge's skill", then why bother with the points at all? Why not just make someone a master judge as soon as they score over a 90, if the exam score is all that matters? So NO, I don't the BJCP exam in and of itself is the be all and end all of a measure of a judge's knowledge. And it can't be used that way. Bill ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 3/20/2004 - 3/21/2004 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:01:40 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 3/19/2004 - 3/20/2004 (OudBruin`at`aol.com) 2. re: alternate path (rehmke) 3. Competiton Organizers Reports (Mike Dixon) 4. RE: Proposal (Bill Wible) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:52:18 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 3/19/2004 - 3/20/2004 Re: challange to exam system_ I've been pretty much ignoring the judgenet for the last 18 months or so, simply because like so many of us, it was time to move on.. I also felt that there was a structure as inflexable as found in certain schools of martial arts. ON the top of the pile you have a few GRAND POOBAH's that somehow manage to do well in exams, and yes, they have made certain social contributions... Next are a bunch of black belts that for whatever reason, age, lifestyle, capability just don't quite make it to GRAND POOBAH Finally at the bottom of the stack are the folks who are just starting out, and may not exceed a few exam (belts) simply because of lifestyle, capability and personal inclinatation. I am most please to see that the old written exam and a flight of doctored beers is actually being challanged by some bjcp judges besides myself. NOW, when are we going to certify in style groups. MY biggest bitch has and continues to be; seeing some fool judging, say, Lambics, and saying the product has no hop profile and tastes infected. (granted, a very extreme example) I'm sure everyone of you has had an entry in some catagory, and you know the product was pretty close to spot on.. you know the product should have scored in the high 30 to low 40 range and you get back scores in the low 20's How did your product get such a skewed result? Oh we can blame how you transported the product, how it was stored by competition organisors, what products preeceded it, while we're at it, lets blame the weather and George Bush(he's getting blamed for everything else) Bottom Line, if you had a judge who really had a solid foundation in British Ales, or German Lagers, or Belgie Lambic's and Trapists, I really doubt that a skewed result will happen. (unless the poor sod has a cold or something else) MY 2 cents, worth. See ya at the dojo... ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rehmke Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:28:47 -0800 Subject: re: alternate path I vaguely remember something about disseminating information as being the heart of judging. As for technical skills, we all rise to our own level of incompetence. I have in my possession over a thousand score sheets. They give me a glimpse of the future. Recognized judges that are destined for Master, National judges who will never rise past National. I base that on their ability to disseminate what they know, not what they might know. =20 When judging, I do the best I can to give entrants their monies worth. My written communication skills, being what they are, make Master a goal I may never obtain. But, please don't change the test on my account. I will just work a little harder at it. =20 This all reminds me of the guy whose kid is really smart, but just doesn't test well. Well, if he was so smart wouldn't he figure out a way to test better. =20 Roger Rehmke ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:33:40 -0500 Subject: Competiton Organizers Reports How will the reporting work with comps that are registered through the AHA? Our competition is next weekend and the organizer did it through the AHA will he still be able to send the BJCP report online? Just wondering...if he can, I will let him know. Oh, if anyone desires to help judge or steward, speak up http://www.hbd.org/carboy/shamrock.htm Cheers, Mike Dixon Wake Forest, NC ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Wible Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:30:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Proposal Jeremy Bergsman writes: >Experience points are already in the equation. Likewise, >no "service" (e.g. exam grading) should substitute. The >value of the exam is that it is an independent measure >of a judge's skill--as opposed to participation. I couldn't disagree more, and I'm sure others are going to say the same thing. 1) There's nothing "independent" about the current exam. That's the basis of the complaints. The entire exam is variable, from the questions on each version, to the proctor giving it, (who decides on the beers and also scores them with you. We've had NUMEROUS complaints on that front, where a proctor has given one of his own beers as a test beer, rated it highly, and it wasn't that good of a beer. The questions on each version of the test are different, so it's not even the "same" test from version to version. 2) Some people are very knowledgeable about beer and styles, and can talk your ear off and know what they're talking about, but just cannot take a test. And there have also been numerous complaints about the written part of the test. It's very intense, and way too much writing for people who don't normally do alot of writing. Remember, many of us are tecchies, computer programmers and such. We spend all our time typing, and many of us haven't written anything major for along time. Then we're asked to write 17 pages of legal pads for a timed test in about an hour and a half, and to also fill out score sheets and judge a beer. Yeah, that's intense. My hand was very cramped and hurt for a long time after I took the test. 3) Experience points are factored in as you claim, but only up to a point. But if the exam "is an independent measure of a judge's skill", then why bother with the points at all? Why not just make someone a master judge as soon as they score over a 90, if the exam score is all that matters? So NO, I don't the BJCP exam in and of itself is the be all and end all of a measure of a judge's knowledge. And it can't be used that way. Bill ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************