Subject: Digest for the period 2/6/2004 - 2/7/2004 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:01:58 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mid-Atlantic BJCP Representative (Michael L. Hall) 2. Re: BJCP responsiveness (Mike Dixon) 3. RE: Love it or leave it (Joel Plutchak) 4. Things volunteers could do (Brian Schar) 5. RE: BJCP - Love it or leave it? (Formanek, Joe) 6. ratios (Jay Spies) 7. Organizers dropping the ball (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 8. Re: BJCP - Love it or leave it? (Dion Hollenbeck) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L. Hall Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 00:24:47 -0700 Subject: Mid-Atlantic BJCP Representative I am pleased to announce the appointment of Phil Sides, Jr. to the position of Mid-Atlantic BJCP Representative. He will serve out the rest of David Houseman's term, which expires in 2005. Phil has extensive brewing, judging, and beer writing experience, and I am sure that he will do a grand job in this position. Please join me in welcoming Phil to the board. I must also report that the slate of candidates for this position was extremely well-qualified, so that my decision was not an easy one at all. I appreciate the recommendations that some of you sent in support of the candidates and I did take them into consideration. It's good to know that there are lots of worthy people out that there want to help the BJCP. I want to thank David Houseman for his attentive and wise service in the Mid-Atlantic Rep position for the past several years. He has taken over the Competition Director position and is currently very active on the Styles Committee, so the BJCP is still feeling his positive influence. Slainte Mhath, -Mike ============================================================================ Michael L. Hall, Ph.D. President, BJCP Board of Directors (Mtn/NW Rep) Member, AHA Board of Advisors President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers ============================================================================ I drink for the thirst to come. -- Francois Rabelais, French Writer and Humorist ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:31:25 -0500 Subject: Re: BJCP responsiveness My suggestion would be to make the judge list available online (using a password of course). That way the organizer of a competition could access the data, print labels, send out e-mails, etc. One other note I might add...if and when someone volunteers to assist in a task, please take the time to let them know if their assistance is accepted or not, and why. Cheers, Mike Dixon Wake Forest, NC ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joel Plutchak Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:44:19 +0000 Subject: RE: Love it or leave it Greg Beron continues his : > >Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the >members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are so >sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. Yes, it's all "our" fault. >Nah, no way. If anything, being invited to leave by a guy who can't even >come up with "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do >for your country" makes me even more likely to stay. I know the quote, you know the quote. I wrote *exactly* what I wanted to write. >I pointed out that the BJCP organization is far from perfect and is a >source of frustration to me. You did so in a forum that we are told is *not* an official BJCP forum. Did you contact your regional BJCP rep? Did you contact the organizers of the competitions you failed to get points for? No, you simply engaged in kvetching. > Someone else pointed out that competition results from 7-8 months ago >haven't been posted, even though the were received on time and that's poor >performance, no matter who the organization is run by. Yes, there are some problems. Ranting doesn't fix them. Working within the system gets things done. If you don't get your precious points, contact the organizer of the competition to see if the points were sent. Make sure your name and correct number was on the report. Check the BJCP web site to see if the report has been processed. Contact your BJCP rep if you have concerns about the issue. Go higher in the hierarchy if that doesn't get results. If, after all that, you still have concerns, maybe that's the time to rant. >If Mr. Plutchak can't handle hearing those things, maybe he's the one who >should consider doing something else. Oh, please. That's not even worthy of comment. I'm secure in my place in the homebrew community, and the world in general. Are you? >Because I wonder what he does when someone is unhappy with the way he >scored their beers? Hunt them down and kill them? Maybe you should ask him. But ad hominem rants in public forums are a lot more fun, aren't they? >E-mail responsibly. Oh, the irony. _________________________________________________________________ Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/ ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Schar Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:08:51 -0800 Subject: Things volunteers could do Kevin Barry writes: >>But the BJCP might want to think about sending out an e-mail to all members asking for volunteers. If the group is bogged down, ask for help. I'll bet lots of us are willing to find out what you need and what we can do to make this run better.<< I think this is an excellent idea. What needs to be done & what can we in the BJCP rank & file do to help? Brian Schar Menlo Park, CA ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Formanek, Joe Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:10:34 -0600 Subject: RE: BJCP - Love it or leave it? Greg Beron wrote: Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are so sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. Nah, no way. If anything, being invited to leave by a guy who can't even come up with "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" makes me even more likely to stay. Because, quite simply, President Kennedy knew that criticism of those things which aren't working and should be changed will help in the long run. Why? Because he wrote those words at at time when the part of the country where I grew up had laws enforcing racial segregation on the books, so anyone who invokes JFK as a voice against criticism of the status quo is a fool. (snip) If Mr. Plutchak can't handle hearing those things, maybe he's the one who should consider doing something else. Because I wonder what he does when someone is unhappy with the way he scored their beers? Hunt them down and kill them? Good Lord, Greg. Your incessant rant against the BJCP is evolving into personal attacks against people who are simply trying to address the issues that you are bringing forward. Of course Joel is familiar with the quote - as we all are! This was uncalled for. A voice against criticism of the status quo?? Hardly! This is an offer for you to *constructively* offer help in order to build a better organization. I am not an apologist. Personally, I feel that the BJCP is doing a good job considering the constraints with which they work, and a lot of volunteer time and effort has gone into making what the organization is today. Great improvements have been made over the last few years, with the website (and the ability to VIEW the database of competition points being registered) being a fantastic improvement. I recognize there are shortcomings in the system, and there is always room for improvement in anything. I feel the trend is very positive as far as the BJCP organization is concerned. I have attained the level of National Judge myself - through participation in competitions (organizing and judging). Yes, I achived a score in the exam that allowed me to eventually become a National Judge - but that was not the reason why I took the exam in the first place. I wanted to further my education on beer in general - styles and process - in order to both help my own brewing as well as in trying to assist others with the same goal - to make a better beer. I have LONG AGO acquired the points necessary for National Judge status - yet, I still am an active participant in the judging and competition process. According to your argument, you would now question why I would still be participating like this. There are no further "awards" that I can get from the BJCP, as I am never planning on retaking the exam to go for Master status. There is no monetary compensation for my traveling to judge to competitions. Then, why, exactly, do I keep participating?? Simply because I ENJOY it! I like to judge competition. I like the camaraderie between judges. I like to meet new people and visit with old friends. I like to keep up to date with beer issues and discover new techniques that I can incorporate into my own brewing system if I'd like. If the only reason why you are judging at competitions is for the points, then perhaps this type of participation in this hobby really isn't for you. Joe Formanek ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jay Spies Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:25:38 -0500 Subject: ratios Pete Bussa chimes in: >>>The point is, if it were easy, anybody could do it (and not to pick on the lawyers, but there's GOT to be a reason they outnumber Judges in the general population by, say, a million to one).<<< The reason that lawyers outnumber BJCP judges a million to one is because very few lawyers have the good sense to become homebrewers....... ;) Jay ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:02:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Organizers dropping the ball Previous postings have mentioned that many competitions are computerized and that judge point information is available immediately, and therefore, the blame is on the BJCP for not getting the points recorded. The listing on the BJCP web site which shows that many organizer reports have been received but not recorded, not withstanding, does not necessarily mean that the blame is always on the BJCP. I am aware of at least one competition (no names mentioned to protect an innocent human mistake) that was completely automated and had the judge points ready immediately upon ending of the competition. Those judge points were not turned in to the BJCP until approximately 9 months later when a judge inquired why they had not received their points. The reason was not negligence, not sloth, but merely an error in communication between two humans on the competition staff. The BJCP is not always at fault. And the current status that only one competition is currently delinquent, was not necessarily that way a couple of months ago. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:16:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: BJCP - Love it or leave it? On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Greg Beron: > > Joel Plutchak wrote: > I think we got the point. The BJCP is not a good match for you-- your > expectations don't match the reality, for whatever reason. The organization > belongs to its members. Either join in and try to help *your* BJCP meet > your expectations, or quit. (What was it JFK said in his inaugural > address?) Greg Beron wrote: > Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the > members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are > so sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. > Greg - I *really* think you are misinterpreting Joel. What I get from what he said is "participate to fix what you think is wrong, keep quiet or get out." There are not only two options, sheep or gone. I think that you have had some very valid points about things which could be done better. Maybe volunteering to help with data entry would be an option. Frankly, I am disappointed that you seem to have, at least for a while, taken a "take my toys and go home" attitude. I have enjoyed judging with you in the past and was looking forward to seeing you at this year's AFC. I would hope that you would continue to participate and to voice your opinions about things you think need fixing, and to help be part of the solution. If Joel's remarks have given you a new attitude, "I won't be pushed out" then I am all for that. We lose enough good judges who just "get out of the hobby", and we don't need to lose good judges because they become disgruntled with the organizational side of judging. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 2/6/2004 - 2/7/2004 Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:01:58 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mid-Atlantic BJCP Representative (Michael L. Hall) 2. Re: BJCP responsiveness (Mike Dixon) 3. RE: Love it or leave it (Joel Plutchak) 4. Things volunteers could do (Brian Schar) 5. RE: BJCP - Love it or leave it? (Formanek, Joe) 6. ratios (Jay Spies) 7. Organizers dropping the ball (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) 8. Re: BJCP - Love it or leave it? (Dion Hollenbeck) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael L. Hall Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 00:24:47 -0700 Subject: Mid-Atlantic BJCP Representative I am pleased to announce the appointment of Phil Sides, Jr. to the position of Mid-Atlantic BJCP Representative. He will serve out the rest of David Houseman's term, which expires in 2005. Phil has extensive brewing, judging, and beer writing experience, and I am sure that he will do a grand job in this position. Please join me in welcoming Phil to the board. I must also report that the slate of candidates for this position was extremely well-qualified, so that my decision was not an easy one at all. I appreciate the recommendations that some of you sent in support of the candidates and I did take them into consideration. It's good to know that there are lots of worthy people out that there want to help the BJCP. I want to thank David Houseman for his attentive and wise service in the Mid-Atlantic Rep position for the past several years. He has taken over the Competition Director position and is currently very active on the Styles Committee, so the BJCP is still feeling his positive influence. Slainte Mhath, -Mike ============================================================================ Michael L. Hall, Ph.D. President, BJCP Board of Directors (Mtn/NW Rep) Member, AHA Board of Advisors President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers ============================================================================ I drink for the thirst to come. -- Francois Rabelais, French Writer and Humorist ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:31:25 -0500 Subject: Re: BJCP responsiveness My suggestion would be to make the judge list available online (using a password of course). That way the organizer of a competition could access the data, print labels, send out e-mails, etc. One other note I might add...if and when someone volunteers to assist in a task, please take the time to let them know if their assistance is accepted or not, and why. Cheers, Mike Dixon Wake Forest, NC ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joel Plutchak Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:44:19 +0000 Subject: RE: Love it or leave it Greg Beron continues his : > >Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the >members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are so >sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. Yes, it's all "our" fault. >Nah, no way. If anything, being invited to leave by a guy who can't even >come up with "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do >for your country" makes me even more likely to stay. I know the quote, you know the quote. I wrote *exactly* what I wanted to write. >I pointed out that the BJCP organization is far from perfect and is a >source of frustration to me. You did so in a forum that we are told is *not* an official BJCP forum. Did you contact your regional BJCP rep? Did you contact the organizers of the competitions you failed to get points for? No, you simply engaged in kvetching. > Someone else pointed out that competition results from 7-8 months ago >haven't been posted, even though the were received on time and that's poor >performance, no matter who the organization is run by. Yes, there are some problems. Ranting doesn't fix them. Working within the system gets things done. If you don't get your precious points, contact the organizer of the competition to see if the points were sent. Make sure your name and correct number was on the report. Check the BJCP web site to see if the report has been processed. Contact your BJCP rep if you have concerns about the issue. Go higher in the hierarchy if that doesn't get results. If, after all that, you still have concerns, maybe that's the time to rant. >If Mr. Plutchak can't handle hearing those things, maybe he's the one who >should consider doing something else. Oh, please. That's not even worthy of comment. I'm secure in my place in the homebrew community, and the world in general. Are you? >Because I wonder what he does when someone is unhappy with the way he >scored their beers? Hunt them down and kill them? Maybe you should ask him. But ad hominem rants in public forums are a lot more fun, aren't they? >E-mail responsibly. Oh, the irony. _________________________________________________________________ Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/ ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Schar Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:08:51 -0800 Subject: Things volunteers could do Kevin Barry writes: >>But the BJCP might want to think about sending out an e-mail to all members asking for volunteers. If the group is bogged down, ask for help. I'll bet lots of us are willing to find out what you need and what we can do to make this run better.<< I think this is an excellent idea. What needs to be done & what can we in the BJCP rank & file do to help? Brian Schar Menlo Park, CA ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Formanek, Joe Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:10:34 -0600 Subject: RE: BJCP - Love it or leave it? Greg Beron wrote: Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are so sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. Nah, no way. If anything, being invited to leave by a guy who can't even come up with "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" makes me even more likely to stay. Because, quite simply, President Kennedy knew that criticism of those things which aren't working and should be changed will help in the long run. Why? Because he wrote those words at at time when the part of the country where I grew up had laws enforcing racial segregation on the books, so anyone who invokes JFK as a voice against criticism of the status quo is a fool. (snip) If Mr. Plutchak can't handle hearing those things, maybe he's the one who should consider doing something else. Because I wonder what he does when someone is unhappy with the way he scored their beers? Hunt them down and kill them? Good Lord, Greg. Your incessant rant against the BJCP is evolving into personal attacks against people who are simply trying to address the issues that you are bringing forward. Of course Joel is familiar with the quote - as we all are! This was uncalled for. A voice against criticism of the status quo?? Hardly! This is an offer for you to *constructively* offer help in order to build a better organization. I am not an apologist. Personally, I feel that the BJCP is doing a good job considering the constraints with which they work, and a lot of volunteer time and effort has gone into making what the organization is today. Great improvements have been made over the last few years, with the website (and the ability to VIEW the database of competition points being registered) being a fantastic improvement. I recognize there are shortcomings in the system, and there is always room for improvement in anything. I feel the trend is very positive as far as the BJCP organization is concerned. I have attained the level of National Judge myself - through participation in competitions (organizing and judging). Yes, I achived a score in the exam that allowed me to eventually become a National Judge - but that was not the reason why I took the exam in the first place. I wanted to further my education on beer in general - styles and process - in order to both help my own brewing as well as in trying to assist others with the same goal - to make a better beer. I have LONG AGO acquired the points necessary for National Judge status - yet, I still am an active participant in the judging and competition process. According to your argument, you would now question why I would still be participating like this. There are no further "awards" that I can get from the BJCP, as I am never planning on retaking the exam to go for Master status. There is no monetary compensation for my traveling to judge to competitions. Then, why, exactly, do I keep participating?? Simply because I ENJOY it! I like to judge competition. I like the camaraderie between judges. I like to meet new people and visit with old friends. I like to keep up to date with beer issues and discover new techniques that I can incorporate into my own brewing system if I'd like. If the only reason why you are judging at competitions is for the points, then perhaps this type of participation in this hobby really isn't for you. Joe Formanek ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jay Spies Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:25:38 -0500 Subject: ratios Pete Bussa chimes in: >>>The point is, if it were easy, anybody could do it (and not to pick on the lawyers, but there's GOT to be a reason they outnumber Judges in the general population by, say, a million to one).<<< The reason that lawyers outnumber BJCP judges a million to one is because very few lawyers have the good sense to become homebrewers....... ;) Jay ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:02:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Organizers dropping the ball Previous postings have mentioned that many competitions are computerized and that judge point information is available immediately, and therefore, the blame is on the BJCP for not getting the points recorded. The listing on the BJCP web site which shows that many organizer reports have been received but not recorded, not withstanding, does not necessarily mean that the blame is always on the BJCP. I am aware of at least one competition (no names mentioned to protect an innocent human mistake) that was completely automated and had the judge points ready immediately upon ending of the competition. Those judge points were not turned in to the BJCP until approximately 9 months later when a judge inquired why they had not received their points. The reason was not negligence, not sloth, but merely an error in communication between two humans on the competition staff. The BJCP is not always at fault. And the current status that only one competition is currently delinquent, was not necessarily that way a couple of months ago. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:16:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: BJCP - Love it or leave it? On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Greg Beron: > > Joel Plutchak wrote: > I think we got the point. The BJCP is not a good match for you-- your > expectations don't match the reality, for whatever reason. The organization > belongs to its members. Either join in and try to help *your* BJCP meet > your expectations, or quit. (What was it JFK said in his inaugural > address?) Greg Beron wrote: > Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the > members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are > so sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. > Greg - I *really* think you are misinterpreting Joel. What I get from what he said is "participate to fix what you think is wrong, keep quiet or get out." There are not only two options, sheep or gone. I think that you have had some very valid points about things which could be done better. Maybe volunteering to help with data entry would be an option. Frankly, I am disappointed that you seem to have, at least for a while, taken a "take my toys and go home" attitude. I have enjoyed judging with you in the past and was looking forward to seeing you at this year's AFC. I would hope that you would continue to participate and to voice your opinions about things you think need fixing, and to help be part of the solution. If Joel's remarks have given you a new attitude, "I won't be pushed out" then I am all for that. We lose enough good judges who just "get out of the hobby", and we don't need to lose good judges because they become disgruntled with the organizational side of judging. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************