Subject: Digest for the period 2/5/2004 - 2/6/2004 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:52 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. BJCP - Love it or leave it? (Greg Beron) 2. More on the BJCP... (Kevin Barry) 3. My .02 on the BJCP (Bev Blackwood II) 4. BJCP responsiveness (Gordon Strong) 5. Sense and sensitivity (Pete) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Beron Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: BJCP - Love it or leave it? Joel Plutchak wrote: I think we got the point. The BJCP is not a good match for you-- your expectations don't match the reality, for whatever reason. The organization belongs to its members. Either join in and try to help *your* BJCP meet your expectations, or quit. (What was it JFK said in his inaugural address?) Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are so sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. Nah, no way. If anything, being invited to leave by a guy who can't even come up with "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" makes me even more likely to stay. Because, quite simply, President Kennedy knew that criticism of those things which aren't working and should be changed will help in the long run. Why? Because he wrote those words at at time when the part of the country where I grew up had laws enforcing racial segregation on the books, so anyone who invokes JFK as a voice against criticism of the status quo is a fool. I pointed out that the BJCP organization is far from perfect and is a source of frustration to me. Others have said the same thing, so I'm not alone in that. Someone else pointed out that competition results from 7-8 months ago haven't been posted, even though the were received on time and that's poor performance, no matter who the organization is run by. If Mr. Plutchak can't handle hearing those things, maybe he's the one who should consider doing something else. Because I wonder what he does when someone is unhappy with the way he scored their beers? Hunt them down and kill them? E-mail responsibly. Check this site before passing rumors: http://www.hoaxkill.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Barry Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:12:45 -0800 Subject: More on the BJCP... To one of my questions: >How then, between the amazing level of > organization by the club hosting the event and the BJCP, do the > records get lost? I got this response: >Its easy. By the time the folks running those INCREDIBLY well organized competitions are done, they are so tired that they want to take a break. Their families and significant others need attention, they have to mow the grass, pay the bills, relocate, etc. And the records slip past the deadline...and slip...and slip. This may not be the case in your situation but I speak from experience. >Check with the other posted links in the last Judgenet and make sure they sent the forms in. Here's exactly why I suspect that in the case of two competitions, the responsibility is the BJCP, not the competition organizer. Since the Competitions in question were fully computerized by the organizers, competition results were made available within 2 weeks and all forms were pre-done with BJCP numbers as I mentioned, am I to suspect that the data that was so meticulously collected before and during the competitions just vanished into the ether afterward. And in fact, in one of the cases, I did check with the competition organizer and there were no "no show" judges. So the master list, that was used to print our Examination Forms and Competition Evaluation forms (again Pre-labeled with our BJCP numbers we submitted when we RSVP'd to judge) got sent to the BJCP. So the suggestion here is that a computer was able to keep track of a list of me and all the other judges right up until the moment it was mailed or E-mailed to the BJCP. Then my name just disappeared. Seems highly unlikely, no? And I see that I'm not the only one who's noticed, via the links provided to defend the BJCP, that the organization is months behind in posting points for competitions that organizers submitted forms on time. In the three years that since I took the BJCP exam, I've received 3 e-mails from the organization. My Score results, my password for the new on-line system, and the response to my inquiry about missing points. There's a lot of us out there who are dissatisfied. The primary response from the BJCP defenders seems to be, get more involved. I'd be happy to maybe do some custodial work on records or data entry. But the BJCP might want to think about sending out an e-mail to all members asking for volunteers. If the group is bogged down, ask for help. I'll bet lots of us are willing to find out what you need and what we can do to make this run better. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bev Blackwood II Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:49:29 -0600 Subject: My .02 on the BJCP I like the BJCP, I think it is well run and provides an exceptional service, albeit a bit slow at times. Given that it's run by volunteer homebrewers, depends on volunteer homebrewers and is entirely voluntary for homebrewers to participate in, I find all the sour grapes that have been expressed in the past few weeks to be largely unwarranted. It's easy to complain when you're just along for the ride and if you want to make a change, then climb on board, volunteer your time and energy and pitch in to make it happen. I think it's a bit much to expect perfection. People frequently make reference to the exam being like the Bar or other certification exams, but in those cases, people are not just getting a title and score, it's a professional credential that carries real weight in the business world. I could be a BJCP Grand Master Level XX, but that wouldn't mean squat in a job interview at a major brewery. The day the credential means anything more than bragging rights at the next homebrew competition, then I'll start worrying about whether my points are getting in on time and how fast my next exam gets scored. I also think it's critical to realize all these folks have real jobs they have to do. The BJCP is just part of their hobby. Some things will always have to come first. I know I was VERY delinquent in turning in judging points one year and I caught grief from all over Texas for it, so the system works in that regard. I appreciate the effort they make and even more I appreciate the fact that the BJCP has structured itself to be run BY homebrewers FOR homebrewers. We're not the world's most dependable group, we'd rather enjoy our hobby and have another homebrew sometimes and I think we've all been there before. Yes, they have agreed to perform a service, but given that their compensation is a title and some service points, I think it's wrong of us to somehow expect that to make grading or database maintenance their top priority. So, cut them some slack, get after your local organizer if your points are missing and remember... it's just beer! -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II (Certified) Co-Competition Coordinator The Foam Rangers http://www.foamrangers.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gordon Strong Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:09:00 -0500 Subject: BJCP responsiveness Just as not all who criticize the BJCP are "ranting", not all who explain its actions are "apologists". Labels such as these are of little value. A little more civility in comments along with a little thicker skin in those on the receiving end would go a long way in being able to discuss and address the real issues being presented. I'd agree that responsiveness is an issue. Currently, organizer reports are being entered by Russ Wigglesworth. What you might not know is that he actually resigned from this position over a year ago, giving a six-month notice. He had been doing that job for over eight years. To his credit, he's continued to do all the data entry well past the end of his term until replacements are appointed. It's a bit unfair to criticize the person doing the work in these circumstances. Blame may belong elsewhere, but not there. Regarding the timeliness of information available on the web and the various reports people are quoting, I'd like to point out not long ago the only communication judges had with the BJCP was a once-a-year paper mailing with no online checking of competition status. Things are better than they have been, and are temporarily slowed down due to unique circumstances already cited. One thing that will be done once the data entry job has transitioned is to introduce an online competition organizer's reporting system. There will be a way to enter the judging data using a web browser, and the data will be transmitted to the database where it can be directly imported. This should make the data entry job easier and thus more likely to be done in a timely manner. This system was written by Jamil Zainasheff, a volunteer BJCP judge. I continue to look for other automation-related projects that can improve the responsiveness of the BJCP to its members. Those with ideas are encouraged to send them to me privately, or post them in this forum. We do have some other things in the works, and I'll be talking about those more when they're closer to being deployed. I've been involved in many BJCP functions, including judging, grading exams, organizing competitions, administering exams, holding exam prep classes, giving presentations on improving judging skills, etc. I re-wrote the existing database and put the judge records on the web after criticizing the former process on judgenet. I'm on the style committee after questioning some of the beer styles in this forum. I did all those things by volunteering and/or being persistent. I'm not trying to toot my horn; I'm trying to show that you can help change the organization and you can volunteer in many ways if you're willing to put in the effort. Even if you don't have the time or means to volunteer, note that the BJCP board and officers do read and participate in this forum. Good suggestions are noted, and often acted upon (although not always in a timely manner). Those suggestions that are well-reasoned, supported by fact, and are not strident are more likely to be persuasive than those that are not (but that's a metaphor for life in general). The BJCP does have issues, but you can do a better job changing them by participating. Gordon Strong it_director`at`bjcp.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pete Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:28:42 -0500 Subject: Sense and sensitivity GO Chuck! ((-'pb As far as the Exam goes - 1) it is *supposed* to be difficult, no? That is part of the point? 2) I had to take it twice (so far) I did reasonably well the first time on the tasting portion, but was totally blown away by the written, due to complete lack of practice and failure to properly study the background material. 3) the 2nd time (retaking only the written) I wrote like a fiend for 3 hours, did 12 pages on 10 questions and (barely) got enough to qualify as "National" when I get enough points (I'm one short) 4) of those 19 points I've had to pester the organizers of the competitions 3 times to submit the judge lists (some multiple times) and at least once to submit me AS having participated. "The BJCP" has NEVER been at fault for (unreasonable) delay in getting points credited. And I always fill out the waivers and sign in sheets The point is, if it were easy, anybody could do it (and not to pick on the lawyers, but there's GOT to be a reason they outnumber Judges in the general population by, say, a million to one). The OTHER point is, That's the way the game IS - play it as written, change the rules (arguably the point of the current discussion) or quit. But as Ann Landers would say - "Quitcher Bitchen'" Or, as they used to say "Bored Now..." But hey, them's just MY thoughts - there will always be those who prefer to curse the darkness as opposed to making candles... Pete Bussa (Incipient) National Judge ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 2/5/2004 - 2/6/2004 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:52 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. BJCP - Love it or leave it? (Greg Beron) 2. More on the BJCP... (Kevin Barry) 3. My .02 on the BJCP (Bev Blackwood II) 4. BJCP responsiveness (Gordon Strong) 5. Sense and sensitivity (Pete) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Beron Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: BJCP - Love it or leave it? Joel Plutchak wrote: I think we got the point. The BJCP is not a good match for you-- your expectations don't match the reality, for whatever reason. The organization belongs to its members. Either join in and try to help *your* BJCP meet your expectations, or quit. (What was it JFK said in his inaugural address?) Now there's an enlightened approach - keep quiet or get out. If the members of this organization, not organizers mind you but members, are so sensitive to criticism, maybe I should get out. Nah, no way. If anything, being invited to leave by a guy who can't even come up with "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" makes me even more likely to stay. Because, quite simply, President Kennedy knew that criticism of those things which aren't working and should be changed will help in the long run. Why? Because he wrote those words at at time when the part of the country where I grew up had laws enforcing racial segregation on the books, so anyone who invokes JFK as a voice against criticism of the status quo is a fool. I pointed out that the BJCP organization is far from perfect and is a source of frustration to me. Others have said the same thing, so I'm not alone in that. Someone else pointed out that competition results from 7-8 months ago haven't been posted, even though the were received on time and that's poor performance, no matter who the organization is run by. If Mr. Plutchak can't handle hearing those things, maybe he's the one who should consider doing something else. Because I wonder what he does when someone is unhappy with the way he scored their beers? Hunt them down and kill them? E-mail responsibly. Check this site before passing rumors: http://www.hoaxkill.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Barry Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:12:45 -0800 Subject: More on the BJCP... To one of my questions: >How then, between the amazing level of > organization by the club hosting the event and the BJCP, do the > records get lost? I got this response: >Its easy. By the time the folks running those INCREDIBLY well organized competitions are done, they are so tired that they want to take a break. Their families and significant others need attention, they have to mow the grass, pay the bills, relocate, etc. And the records slip past the deadline...and slip...and slip. This may not be the case in your situation but I speak from experience. >Check with the other posted links in the last Judgenet and make sure they sent the forms in. Here's exactly why I suspect that in the case of two competitions, the responsibility is the BJCP, not the competition organizer. Since the Competitions in question were fully computerized by the organizers, competition results were made available within 2 weeks and all forms were pre-done with BJCP numbers as I mentioned, am I to suspect that the data that was so meticulously collected before and during the competitions just vanished into the ether afterward. And in fact, in one of the cases, I did check with the competition organizer and there were no "no show" judges. So the master list, that was used to print our Examination Forms and Competition Evaluation forms (again Pre-labeled with our BJCP numbers we submitted when we RSVP'd to judge) got sent to the BJCP. So the suggestion here is that a computer was able to keep track of a list of me and all the other judges right up until the moment it was mailed or E-mailed to the BJCP. Then my name just disappeared. Seems highly unlikely, no? And I see that I'm not the only one who's noticed, via the links provided to defend the BJCP, that the organization is months behind in posting points for competitions that organizers submitted forms on time. In the three years that since I took the BJCP exam, I've received 3 e-mails from the organization. My Score results, my password for the new on-line system, and the response to my inquiry about missing points. There's a lot of us out there who are dissatisfied. The primary response from the BJCP defenders seems to be, get more involved. I'd be happy to maybe do some custodial work on records or data entry. But the BJCP might want to think about sending out an e-mail to all members asking for volunteers. If the group is bogged down, ask for help. I'll bet lots of us are willing to find out what you need and what we can do to make this run better. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bev Blackwood II Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:49:29 -0600 Subject: My .02 on the BJCP I like the BJCP, I think it is well run and provides an exceptional service, albeit a bit slow at times. Given that it's run by volunteer homebrewers, depends on volunteer homebrewers and is entirely voluntary for homebrewers to participate in, I find all the sour grapes that have been expressed in the past few weeks to be largely unwarranted. It's easy to complain when you're just along for the ride and if you want to make a change, then climb on board, volunteer your time and energy and pitch in to make it happen. I think it's a bit much to expect perfection. People frequently make reference to the exam being like the Bar or other certification exams, but in those cases, people are not just getting a title and score, it's a professional credential that carries real weight in the business world. I could be a BJCP Grand Master Level XX, but that wouldn't mean squat in a job interview at a major brewery. The day the credential means anything more than bragging rights at the next homebrew competition, then I'll start worrying about whether my points are getting in on time and how fast my next exam gets scored. I also think it's critical to realize all these folks have real jobs they have to do. The BJCP is just part of their hobby. Some things will always have to come first. I know I was VERY delinquent in turning in judging points one year and I caught grief from all over Texas for it, so the system works in that regard. I appreciate the effort they make and even more I appreciate the fact that the BJCP has structured itself to be run BY homebrewers FOR homebrewers. We're not the world's most dependable group, we'd rather enjoy our hobby and have another homebrew sometimes and I think we've all been there before. Yes, they have agreed to perform a service, but given that their compensation is a title and some service points, I think it's wrong of us to somehow expect that to make grading or database maintenance their top priority. So, cut them some slack, get after your local organizer if your points are missing and remember... it's just beer! -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II (Certified) Co-Competition Coordinator The Foam Rangers http://www.foamrangers.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gordon Strong Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:09:00 -0500 Subject: BJCP responsiveness Just as not all who criticize the BJCP are "ranting", not all who explain its actions are "apologists". Labels such as these are of little value. A little more civility in comments along with a little thicker skin in those on the receiving end would go a long way in being able to discuss and address the real issues being presented. I'd agree that responsiveness is an issue. Currently, organizer reports are being entered by Russ Wigglesworth. What you might not know is that he actually resigned from this position over a year ago, giving a six-month notice. He had been doing that job for over eight years. To his credit, he's continued to do all the data entry well past the end of his term until replacements are appointed. It's a bit unfair to criticize the person doing the work in these circumstances. Blame may belong elsewhere, but not there. Regarding the timeliness of information available on the web and the various reports people are quoting, I'd like to point out not long ago the only communication judges had with the BJCP was a once-a-year paper mailing with no online checking of competition status. Things are better than they have been, and are temporarily slowed down due to unique circumstances already cited. One thing that will be done once the data entry job has transitioned is to introduce an online competition organizer's reporting system. There will be a way to enter the judging data using a web browser, and the data will be transmitted to the database where it can be directly imported. This should make the data entry job easier and thus more likely to be done in a timely manner. This system was written by Jamil Zainasheff, a volunteer BJCP judge. I continue to look for other automation-related projects that can improve the responsiveness of the BJCP to its members. Those with ideas are encouraged to send them to me privately, or post them in this forum. We do have some other things in the works, and I'll be talking about those more when they're closer to being deployed. I've been involved in many BJCP functions, including judging, grading exams, organizing competitions, administering exams, holding exam prep classes, giving presentations on improving judging skills, etc. I re-wrote the existing database and put the judge records on the web after criticizing the former process on judgenet. I'm on the style committee after questioning some of the beer styles in this forum. I did all those things by volunteering and/or being persistent. I'm not trying to toot my horn; I'm trying to show that you can help change the organization and you can volunteer in many ways if you're willing to put in the effort. Even if you don't have the time or means to volunteer, note that the BJCP board and officers do read and participate in this forum. Good suggestions are noted, and often acted upon (although not always in a timely manner). Those suggestions that are well-reasoned, supported by fact, and are not strident are more likely to be persuasive than those that are not (but that's a metaphor for life in general). The BJCP does have issues, but you can do a better job changing them by participating. Gordon Strong it_director`at`bjcp.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pete Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:28:42 -0500 Subject: Sense and sensitivity GO Chuck! ((-'pb As far as the Exam goes - 1) it is *supposed* to be difficult, no? That is part of the point? 2) I had to take it twice (so far) I did reasonably well the first time on the tasting portion, but was totally blown away by the written, due to complete lack of practice and failure to properly study the background material. 3) the 2nd time (retaking only the written) I wrote like a fiend for 3 hours, did 12 pages on 10 questions and (barely) got enough to qualify as "National" when I get enough points (I'm one short) 4) of those 19 points I've had to pester the organizers of the competitions 3 times to submit the judge lists (some multiple times) and at least once to submit me AS having participated. "The BJCP" has NEVER been at fault for (unreasonable) delay in getting points credited. And I always fill out the waivers and sign in sheets The point is, if it were easy, anybody could do it (and not to pick on the lawyers, but there's GOT to be a reason they outnumber Judges in the general population by, say, a million to one). The OTHER point is, That's the way the game IS - play it as written, change the rules (arguably the point of the current discussion) or quit. But as Ann Landers would say - "Quitcher Bitchen'" Or, as they used to say "Bored Now..." But hey, them's just MY thoughts - there will always be those who prefer to curse the darkness as opposed to making candles... Pete Bussa (Incipient) National Judge ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************