Subject: Digest for the period 2/4/2004 - 2/5/2004 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:03:11 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Concerns with BJCP Study Guide (Stephen Johnson) 2. Fed up with the BJCP (Mark McAndrews) 3. Put up or shut up... (Kris England) 4. Re: Overly Sensitive (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stephen Johnson Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:13:05 -0600 Subject: Concerns with BJCP Study Guide Jay Spies makes some great suggestions on some ways to improve both the Study Guide and the grading process. I agree with his comments that a) by not having many examples (more than 1) of good answers, and b) by having apparent inconsistencies in the actual grading and scoring of exams by different graders despite the oversight process provided by the Regional BJCP exam directors both make my points about how to study pretty much irrelevant. Hopefully all of this discourse will help guide the BJCP in making some changes in both the study guide (1998) and more clear and/or detailed exam grader guidelines and rubrics. Perhaps this can be a goal for the new BJCP President. Steve (not Steven) Johnson Nashville, TN ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark McAndrews Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:31:04 -0600 Subject: Fed up with the BJCP My quick scan of the list of completed reports on the BJCP web site only finds 6 competitions where the experience points have been recorded in the past 6 months. I understand their is a transition underway, but I've missed any communication outlining the details. I think the membership can reasonably ask the officers & directors: 1. What is the plan for the transition, including dates when each step should be completed? 2. Did/Does this plan call for stopping recording experience points for 6 months, or 12 months or 2 years? 3. When will experience points start to be recorded? 4. What's the plan for the growing backlog of completed reports that have not been recorded? ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kris England Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:10:21 -0600 Subject: Put up or shut up... I have only in the past year or so been involved with the BJCP and quite frankly was a little squeamish with what I saw. Everything seemed to take forever to get everything done so I can see why some people are frustrated. As for the quality of the test, I also have my reservations. For the most part, I don't not believe that knowing the ENTIRE range of all of a style/sub-styles numbers (OG, FG, SRM, etc) will make you a better judge because every time one sits down to judge they have the guidelines in front of them. On the other hand, having a general range of what each style/sub-style I think is important. That being said, the rest of the test is probably the most straightforward test I have ever taken. I'm currently in graduate school working my way towards a Ph.D. and in all my years in school have taken pretty much every conceivable test there is to give. The BJCP test is nothing magical or difficult. I'm not trying to be cocksure or egotistical, facts are facts. I don't know a single other test that I have ever taken where you know EXACTLY what will be on it every time. The BJCP even goes out of its way to put things on there website to tell you the correct answers.and a study sheet. If one does poorly on the exam it is either their fault and/or the way they were prepared for the test and not the BJCP. As for the time constraints use them for what they are. We all have deadlines to meet in life that we wish were longer. We all have difficulties with certain things that we must work around. If one writes slowly devise a way to write less, EG making tables which is a great idea for everyone in the first place. All the questions on styles can be answered, and in my opinion SHOULD be answered, in table format.columns for style, history, OG, FG, etc.just plug and chug. I have only taken the exam once and managed to get +80%, have the points for national status and am an exam grader. I am VERY proud of this fact and take my judging very seriously. I don't want the exam to get any easier. I don't want the exam to be pass/fail. I'm not in the BJCP to go around telling people that I'm a judge and I know everything about beer. The rankings don't give me incentive in them but give me respect from people I don't know and haven't met and in the very least people may give you the time you need to show them you know your stuff. Put it this way, in my classes I look more highly on a lecturer with a Ph.D. than with an M.S. In some cases its not right but in most it is. They don't just hand out degrees and neither should the BJCP. In closing, sorry for the length, this is a HOBBY and hobbies are supposed to be FUN. I didn't get into home brewing to save money. I did it because I love beer. I got into the BJCP because I want to learn and to teach about the thing I love. The BJCP isn't perfect but it's what we have. Some things need to change and it takes people to change them. So you basically have 2 choices: 1. Put up - realize there are things to change and help change them 2. Shut up - stop complaining, do nothing and leave This message was not meant towards anyone in particular. If anyone has private questions/comments feel free to email me directly. Best Regards, Kristen England PhD Candidate Univ of Minnesota Department of Pharmacology Medical School ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:39:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Overly Sensitive Whoever complained about Chuck asking for a better subject is, either uninformed of how Email news lists work, or is just a plain lazy SOB. Chuck does a fantastic job running this list and I can judge, as I run 4 lists myself, one with a membership of close to 600. Anyone giving Chuck crap is WAAAAY out of line. Chuck - Thanks for all your hard work. It is appreciated. And your moderating activities to keep this list manageable and readable is way above and beyond the call of duty. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 2/4/2004 - 2/5/2004 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:03:11 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Concerns with BJCP Study Guide (Stephen Johnson) 2. Fed up with the BJCP (Mark McAndrews) 3. Put up or shut up... (Kris England) 4. Re: Overly Sensitive (hollen`at`woodsprite.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stephen Johnson Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 06:13:05 -0600 Subject: Concerns with BJCP Study Guide Jay Spies makes some great suggestions on some ways to improve both the Study Guide and the grading process. I agree with his comments that a) by not having many examples (more than 1) of good answers, and b) by having apparent inconsistencies in the actual grading and scoring of exams by different graders despite the oversight process provided by the Regional BJCP exam directors both make my points about how to study pretty much irrelevant. Hopefully all of this discourse will help guide the BJCP in making some changes in both the study guide (1998) and more clear and/or detailed exam grader guidelines and rubrics. Perhaps this can be a goal for the new BJCP President. Steve (not Steven) Johnson Nashville, TN ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark McAndrews Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:31:04 -0600 Subject: Fed up with the BJCP My quick scan of the list of completed reports on the BJCP web site only finds 6 competitions where the experience points have been recorded in the past 6 months. I understand their is a transition underway, but I've missed any communication outlining the details. I think the membership can reasonably ask the officers & directors: 1. What is the plan for the transition, including dates when each step should be completed? 2. Did/Does this plan call for stopping recording experience points for 6 months, or 12 months or 2 years? 3. When will experience points start to be recorded? 4. What's the plan for the growing backlog of completed reports that have not been recorded? ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kris England Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:10:21 -0600 Subject: Put up or shut up... I have only in the past year or so been involved with the BJCP and quite frankly was a little squeamish with what I saw. Everything seemed to take forever to get everything done so I can see why some people are frustrated. As for the quality of the test, I also have my reservations. For the most part, I don't not believe that knowing the ENTIRE range of all of a style/sub-styles numbers (OG, FG, SRM, etc) will make you a better judge because every time one sits down to judge they have the guidelines in front of them. On the other hand, having a general range of what each style/sub-style I think is important. That being said, the rest of the test is probably the most straightforward test I have ever taken. I'm currently in graduate school working my way towards a Ph.D. and in all my years in school have taken pretty much every conceivable test there is to give. The BJCP test is nothing magical or difficult. I'm not trying to be cocksure or egotistical, facts are facts. I don't know a single other test that I have ever taken where you know EXACTLY what will be on it every time. The BJCP even goes out of its way to put things on there website to tell you the correct answers.and a study sheet. If one does poorly on the exam it is either their fault and/or the way they were prepared for the test and not the BJCP. As for the time constraints use them for what they are. We all have deadlines to meet in life that we wish were longer. We all have difficulties with certain things that we must work around. If one writes slowly devise a way to write less, EG making tables which is a great idea for everyone in the first place. All the questions on styles can be answered, and in my opinion SHOULD be answered, in table format.columns for style, history, OG, FG, etc.just plug and chug. I have only taken the exam once and managed to get +80%, have the points for national status and am an exam grader. I am VERY proud of this fact and take my judging very seriously. I don't want the exam to get any easier. I don't want the exam to be pass/fail. I'm not in the BJCP to go around telling people that I'm a judge and I know everything about beer. The rankings don't give me incentive in them but give me respect from people I don't know and haven't met and in the very least people may give you the time you need to show them you know your stuff. Put it this way, in my classes I look more highly on a lecturer with a Ph.D. than with an M.S. In some cases its not right but in most it is. They don't just hand out degrees and neither should the BJCP. In closing, sorry for the length, this is a HOBBY and hobbies are supposed to be FUN. I didn't get into home brewing to save money. I did it because I love beer. I got into the BJCP because I want to learn and to teach about the thing I love. The BJCP isn't perfect but it's what we have. Some things need to change and it takes people to change them. So you basically have 2 choices: 1. Put up - realize there are things to change and help change them 2. Shut up - stop complaining, do nothing and leave This message was not meant towards anyone in particular. If anyone has private questions/comments feel free to email me directly. Best Regards, Kristen England PhD Candidate Univ of Minnesota Department of Pharmacology Medical School ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:39:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Overly Sensitive Whoever complained about Chuck asking for a better subject is, either uninformed of how Email news lists work, or is just a plain lazy SOB. Chuck does a fantastic job running this list and I can judge, as I run 4 lists myself, one with a membership of close to 600. Anyone giving Chuck crap is WAAAAY out of line. Chuck - Thanks for all your hard work. It is appreciated. And your moderating activities to keep this list manageable and readable is way above and beyond the call of duty. regards, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************