Subject: Digest for the period 2/2/2004 - 2/3/2004 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:21:53 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 1/30/2004 - 2/2/2004 (Greg Beron) 2. Re: misOrganization at the BJCP (Tom & Dana Karnowski) 3. Fed up with BJCP (Mark McAndrews) 4. Exam Prep (Stephen Johnson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Beron Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/30/2004 - 2/2/2004 A couple of notes to the BJCP apologists who replied to my rant: 1. Yes, I know BJCP depends upon volunteers. So are a lot of well-run organizations, including the Boy Scouts, virtually every club and many states' bars. Those organizations still manage to meet their obligations. That was my entire point. 2. After reading some of the responses to my rant, I checked the deliquent and submitted reports. According to the BJCP's own tally, only one competition is deliquent, and that one was held at the end of November. The rest are in the completed list. 3. As for the cynic (and I'm showing great restraint here) who suggested I got involved in judging just to advance the store, the opposite is true. I took the test before getting involved in the store. Further, my point is that it kept me from judging in a couple of competitions I would have judged otherwise. Not that I'd have the points to show for judging them either. Now here's what you all missed: The entire point of having a hierarchy of judges is to give people an incentive to judge, and thereby advance. If that's not going to happen, why not just make it a pass/fail exam, have one class of judges and be done with it? ===== E-mail responsibly. Check this site before passing rumors: http://www.hoaxkill.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom & Dana Karnowski Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:49:19 -0500 Subject: Re: misOrganization at the BJCP Kevin Barry says: > Fine, I'll buy that, but two of the > competitions in question were INCREDIBLY well organized. Judges > arrived to find all their score sheets, flight list, and competition > evaluation forms completely filled out and ready with our BJCP > numbers attached. How then, between the amazing level of > organization by the club hosting the event and the BJCP, do the > records get lost? (BTW, Tip of the pint glass to Strand Brewers for > running such excellent competitions. No, I'm not a member.) Its easy. By the time the folks running those INCREDIBLY well organized competitions are done, they are so tired that they want to take a break. Their families and significant others need attention, they have to mow the grass, pay the bills, relocate, etc. And the records slip past the deadline...and slip...and slip. This may not be the case in your situation but I speak from experience. Check with the other posted links in the last Judgenet and make sure they sent the forms in. And if they did, contact the organizer and see why they accidentally left you off. Usually this doesn't take much time or effort but it won't happen if you don't contact the people in charge. Do you remember the organizers' names? >I realize that the BJCP is all volunteer and that they have to deal >with judges from the entire country, but is a completely ineffectual >certifying organization really better than no organization at all? How do you define "completely ineffectual"? I've never had any problem getting my competitions and judge sessions recorded very accurately. Many years ago I was ticked off at how long it took my exam score to get returned, but that was before I realized the effort that went into it. As far as I'm concerned the BJCP is remarkably effective at what they are trying to do, given their limited budget and volunteers. Tom Karnowski BJCP National Judge and Grader, albeit rather slow Knoxville TN ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark McAndrews Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:08:42 -0600 Subject: Fed up with BJCP I can only say Mr. Beron's experience largely mirrors my own and I don't find his attitude unwarranted. I only took the exam in December 2002, so my experience is quite limited, but lately the BJCP has not been encouraging. I understand giving personalized feedback on the exam using only a volunteer committee takes time and was not unduly put off by the delay in getting results. However, experience points is another matter (points earned prior to the exam are an exception, but regular competitions are quite another). Simply entering points from a competition report should not take such a long time. The BJCP penalizes an organizer who doesn't file their report w/i 20 days of a competition, however, the BJCP by their own admission has competition reports that were filed in July and as of January 10, had not been entered. The web site still instructs judges to wait 2 months before they expect to see experience points recorded. In short the BJCP is falling down on the job. I understand that it is a volunteer run organization, but at some point that doesn't matter. If they don't pull it together soon, they will lose legitamacy and no one will care if they have the BJCP blessing since points do seem to be recorded whether they have the sanctioning or not. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stephen Johnson Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:01:25 -0600 Subject: Exam Prep With all of this talk about the BJCP exam and how some people feel that the testing process needs revamping, I've wondered how many of those individuals who have complained about not being able to write enough in the time allotted for the exam portion, actually prepared for the exam by practicing writing answers to 10 questions in 3 hours, all the while scoring some sample beers with some other already recognized BJCP judges. I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt that many of them practiced this process in preparation for the exam. In my years of teaching and conducting research in the field of special education, I spent several years working with at-risk inner city kids with learning disabilities teaching them test-taking strategies in order to help them pass "high stakes" tests (i.e., state-wide tests of basic skills required for high school diploma programs). Many of the strategies that we found to be the most successful in our program were modeled after the same tried and true methods employed by numerous programs around the country (Kaplan, etc.) designed to help students score well on the SAT's, GRE's, LSAT's, and many other entrance exams and tests. I myself benefited from these approaches when I worked on achieving a high enough score on the GRE to get me into a nationally ranked graduate program when I practiced taking sample tests from a test prep guide and did them under timed conditions. I think the same can apply for those prepping to pass the BJCP exam. Sure, lots of folks probably work on study sessions, pouring over lots of questions and listing information, but I wonder how many really sit down in front of 4 beers, and have someone pick 10 questions at random from the BJCP study guide and practice writing essay questions in the time frame given to learn what it feels like to be under that kind of pressure. Then have your study group partners read each other's answers and rate them on a simple scale of 1 to 10 to see if you are getting the information down to really answer the question. I think this writing practice is especially important in the computer age we currently live in, with fewer people writing and more people typing. I also don't see the argument that this amount of writing doesn't mimic what we do in actual competitions. The way I see it, the bottom line is that in many competitions, to provide entrants with the kind of feedback that many of us aspire to giving (and receiving, as entrants), a judging session of 12 beers in 3 hours comes close to feeling the same as what we have to go through in taking the BJCP exam. Practice makes perfect, and the best way to practice, in my book, is to simulate the testing conditions and work at it until you develop your writing skills to say the most detail in the fewest words possible. It is a craft that for most of us doesn't come without some effort. Just my two cents worth, Steve Johnson BJCP Certified Nashville, TN ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 2/2/2004 - 2/3/2004 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 02:21:53 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 1/30/2004 - 2/2/2004 (Greg Beron) 2. Re: misOrganization at the BJCP (Tom & Dana Karnowski) 3. Fed up with BJCP (Mark McAndrews) 4. Exam Prep (Stephen Johnson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Beron Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/30/2004 - 2/2/2004 A couple of notes to the BJCP apologists who replied to my rant: 1. Yes, I know BJCP depends upon volunteers. So are a lot of well-run organizations, including the Boy Scouts, virtually every club and many states' bars. Those organizations still manage to meet their obligations. That was my entire point. 2. After reading some of the responses to my rant, I checked the deliquent and submitted reports. According to the BJCP's own tally, only one competition is deliquent, and that one was held at the end of November. The rest are in the completed list. 3. As for the cynic (and I'm showing great restraint here) who suggested I got involved in judging just to advance the store, the opposite is true. I took the test before getting involved in the store. Further, my point is that it kept me from judging in a couple of competitions I would have judged otherwise. Not that I'd have the points to show for judging them either. Now here's what you all missed: The entire point of having a hierarchy of judges is to give people an incentive to judge, and thereby advance. If that's not going to happen, why not just make it a pass/fail exam, have one class of judges and be done with it? ===== E-mail responsibly. Check this site before passing rumors: http://www.hoaxkill.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom & Dana Karnowski Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:49:19 -0500 Subject: Re: misOrganization at the BJCP Kevin Barry says: > Fine, I'll buy that, but two of the > competitions in question were INCREDIBLY well organized. Judges > arrived to find all their score sheets, flight list, and competition > evaluation forms completely filled out and ready with our BJCP > numbers attached. How then, between the amazing level of > organization by the club hosting the event and the BJCP, do the > records get lost? (BTW, Tip of the pint glass to Strand Brewers for > running such excellent competitions. No, I'm not a member.) Its easy. By the time the folks running those INCREDIBLY well organized competitions are done, they are so tired that they want to take a break. Their families and significant others need attention, they have to mow the grass, pay the bills, relocate, etc. And the records slip past the deadline...and slip...and slip. This may not be the case in your situation but I speak from experience. Check with the other posted links in the last Judgenet and make sure they sent the forms in. And if they did, contact the organizer and see why they accidentally left you off. Usually this doesn't take much time or effort but it won't happen if you don't contact the people in charge. Do you remember the organizers' names? >I realize that the BJCP is all volunteer and that they have to deal >with judges from the entire country, but is a completely ineffectual >certifying organization really better than no organization at all? How do you define "completely ineffectual"? I've never had any problem getting my competitions and judge sessions recorded very accurately. Many years ago I was ticked off at how long it took my exam score to get returned, but that was before I realized the effort that went into it. As far as I'm concerned the BJCP is remarkably effective at what they are trying to do, given their limited budget and volunteers. Tom Karnowski BJCP National Judge and Grader, albeit rather slow Knoxville TN ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark McAndrews Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:08:42 -0600 Subject: Fed up with BJCP I can only say Mr. Beron's experience largely mirrors my own and I don't find his attitude unwarranted. I only took the exam in December 2002, so my experience is quite limited, but lately the BJCP has not been encouraging. I understand giving personalized feedback on the exam using only a volunteer committee takes time and was not unduly put off by the delay in getting results. However, experience points is another matter (points earned prior to the exam are an exception, but regular competitions are quite another). Simply entering points from a competition report should not take such a long time. The BJCP penalizes an organizer who doesn't file their report w/i 20 days of a competition, however, the BJCP by their own admission has competition reports that were filed in July and as of January 10, had not been entered. The web site still instructs judges to wait 2 months before they expect to see experience points recorded. In short the BJCP is falling down on the job. I understand that it is a volunteer run organization, but at some point that doesn't matter. If they don't pull it together soon, they will lose legitamacy and no one will care if they have the BJCP blessing since points do seem to be recorded whether they have the sanctioning or not. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stephen Johnson Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:01:25 -0600 Subject: Exam Prep With all of this talk about the BJCP exam and how some people feel that the testing process needs revamping, I've wondered how many of those individuals who have complained about not being able to write enough in the time allotted for the exam portion, actually prepared for the exam by practicing writing answers to 10 questions in 3 hours, all the while scoring some sample beers with some other already recognized BJCP judges. I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt that many of them practiced this process in preparation for the exam. In my years of teaching and conducting research in the field of special education, I spent several years working with at-risk inner city kids with learning disabilities teaching them test-taking strategies in order to help them pass "high stakes" tests (i.e., state-wide tests of basic skills required for high school diploma programs). Many of the strategies that we found to be the most successful in our program were modeled after the same tried and true methods employed by numerous programs around the country (Kaplan, etc.) designed to help students score well on the SAT's, GRE's, LSAT's, and many other entrance exams and tests. I myself benefited from these approaches when I worked on achieving a high enough score on the GRE to get me into a nationally ranked graduate program when I practiced taking sample tests from a test prep guide and did them under timed conditions. I think the same can apply for those prepping to pass the BJCP exam. Sure, lots of folks probably work on study sessions, pouring over lots of questions and listing information, but I wonder how many really sit down in front of 4 beers, and have someone pick 10 questions at random from the BJCP study guide and practice writing essay questions in the time frame given to learn what it feels like to be under that kind of pressure. Then have your study group partners read each other's answers and rate them on a simple scale of 1 to 10 to see if you are getting the information down to really answer the question. I think this writing practice is especially important in the computer age we currently live in, with fewer people writing and more people typing. I also don't see the argument that this amount of writing doesn't mimic what we do in actual competitions. The way I see it, the bottom line is that in many competitions, to provide entrants with the kind of feedback that many of us aspire to giving (and receiving, as entrants), a judging session of 12 beers in 3 hours comes close to feeling the same as what we have to go through in taking the BJCP exam. Practice makes perfect, and the best way to practice, in my book, is to simulate the testing conditions and work at it until you develop your writing skills to say the most detail in the fewest words possible. It is a craft that for most of us doesn't come without some effort. Just my two cents worth, Steve Johnson BJCP Certified Nashville, TN ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************