Subject: Digest for the period 1/30/2004 - 2/2/2004 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:15:09 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC, Reno NV (John C.Tull) 2. RE: Fed up with BJCP (Denis Barsalo) 3. Re: Fed up with BJCP (David Houseman) 4. re: fed up with BJCP (kevin pratt) 5. Fed up with BJCP (Mike Dixon) 6. Regarding misOrganization at the BJCP (Kevin Barry) 7. Re: Fed up (John C.Tull) 8. Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 (Mark Wilson) 9. Exam Content, Format, Feedback, Rants (David Harsh) 10. Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 (XZYMURGIST`at`aol.com) 11. Re: Fed up with BJCP (Bryan L. Gros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John C.Tull Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:56:08 -0800 Subject: Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC, Reno NV I want to invite the members of this list to participate in the 2004 Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Hombrew Competition here in Reno, NV. We will be judging Sunday 29 February 2004, with entries due from 7-21 February 2004. Last year we had over 100 entries, and the BOS winner brewed their beer at the Great Basin Brewing Company. Likewise, this year's BOS winner will brew their winning recipe at Silver Peak Brewery & Restaurant. If you plan to enter and are in the Sacramento or Bay Area, please see the entry options on the webpage. If you would like to enter your homebrew, or volunteer to steward or judge, please visit our competition web page for all the details, and for online registration. Email me if you have any questions. http://134.197.55.114/wzz/wzz-comp2004.html Cheers, John C. Tull ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Denis Barsalo Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:34:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Fed up with BJCP Greg Beron blames wholly the BJCP for his judge and organizer points not being posted. Possibly he ignores the fact that several competition organizers do not return judging results in a timely fashion thus not even giving the BJCP a chance to receive them, let alone post them. At last count, I could see at least 45 competitions over the last year and a half who have yet to file organizer reports! Additionally, my experiences have been with volunteer organizations are, if you are disgusted and frustrated with the way things are run, you don't just rant about them, you get involved and create change. There are elections coming up shortly for BJCP positions. Maybe Greg would like to fill one of them, get on the BJCP board and improve the things that causes him (and others) frustration. IMO, if you are not willing to get involved in a volunteer organization to improve it then you shouldn't rant in public! Cheers, Denis ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Houseman Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:14:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Fed up with BJCP Greg, I certainly understand the frustration with having to wait 5 1/2 months for your results. That's longer than typical of course. With an all-volunteer army we're at the mercy of other judges who volunteer their time to grade exams. These things do happen. For an organization that doesn't even charge dues, we do a pretty good job, IMHO. Want paid staff and graders? What would members pay for that?!! Besides that point, I'm not sure from reading your email what your complaint with the BJCP is? We don't schedule the competitions or run them; that's up to local organizes. We don't schedule your work or travel schedule to judge. Sometimes we might get a little behind in posting experience points, but that is being addressed with on-line filing of organizer reports directly to the database. And up until last year we had to wait for an annual mailing to find out the status of our points posting to the database; now with Gordon's IT leadership we have on-line access that's much closer to real-time. I share your frustration at how long it takes to get some things done, and most of those are being worked on by the volunteers that make up this organization. But other than that, I see what the complaint is or what the rant is about. In fact, not too bad a rant ... more of a valid complaint. Dave Houseman ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kevin pratt Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: fed up with BJCP QUOTE: Well, I can certainly understand the frustration. The stats were just that, stats. Based on only the limited information available publicly. What the stats don't tell are drop-out rates, points to score eligibility or current standings as of the last points update. They are simply a snapshot. It took me 10 years of judging when I could to get even close to 20 points. That accounts for all of the contests where points weren't turned in or I recieved less than I should have (judged multiple days, BOS; only 1 point awarded). And that's just where all is well in other peoples lives. Judges have bailed as organizers, graders and board members due to a variety of reasons. Job changes, house fires, relocation, divorce or illness just to name a few reasons. There is not enough depth in the volunteers for the more time consuming jobs (like test grading) to instantly adapt to every change. As for the other stats I posted, they just show achievement. When both score and points match a level, there's the number. They don't show high scores and low points or vice versa. It is, after all a hobby. You may spend as much or as little time as you wish and may reserve the right to prioritize. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:31:22 -0500 Subject: Fed up with BJCP Greg, I suggest you check and see if those comps were always BJCP registered and if the reports are in. Our local club held a competition a few years back and did not register the competition since it was put together at the last minute. Hopefully that is not what happened in your case. You can generally contact the organizer for the competition in question and get the points added in. Delinquent reports... http://207.89.201.107/Reports/delinq.html Report submitted... http://207.89.201.107/Reports/completed.html Granted that information is not always up to date, but it can give you a headstart in tracking down missing points. Lots of reports are available here http://207.89.201.107/BJCP_Reports.html Anyway, I can feel your pain on the long wait for exam results. I figure it is a part of the process since we are a volunteer organization. Cheers, Mike ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Barry Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:53:34 -0800 Subject: Regarding misOrganization at the BJCP I'll throw my hat in the ring as one who finds the organization of the BJCP lacking. As long as the topic is out there. I took and passed the exam with a high enough score to be certified. That was nearly three years ago. The BJCP quickly posted 1.5 points retroactively. Since that time, I've judged in NINE BJCP sponsored competitions. My point total is currently 4.5 (or at least it was when I last checked about 30 days ago.) Now why would I even consider giving the BJCP more money to re-take the exam to try and become National? At this rate, I will have to judge in 36 more competitions before the organization gets around to awarding me enough experience points to qualify. I brought missing points to the attention of the BJCP via e-mail and got a response that the competition organizers are responsible for reporting the points correctly. Fine, I'll buy that, but two of the competitions in question were INCREDIBLY well organized. Judges arrived to find all their score sheets, flight list, and competition evaluation forms completely filled out and ready with our BJCP numbers attached. How then, between the amazing level of organization by the club hosting the event and the BJCP, do the records get lost? (BTW, Tip of the pint glass to Strand Brewers for running such excellent competitions. No, I'm not a member.) I realize that the BJCP is all volunteer and that they have to deal with judges from the entire country, but is a completely ineffectual certifying organization really better than no organization at all? Kevin Barry NatSat 8075 W. 3rd St. #504 Los Angeles, CA 90048 323-857-0777 323-939-9475 fax ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John C.Tull Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:40:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Fed up Generally, if you are not getting experience points, it is either because the competition organizer failed to return a report, you were omitted from the list, or the points have not been processed for your record yet. I organize our annual competition here in Reno, NV, and I have erred by leaving off an individual. This is rare, but mistakes are = made. Additionally, Russ is a one-man show. He has been planning to "retire" from his position as Program Administrator for some time now. = Sometimes things get backed up, but Russ does an excellent job and has = worked his tail off for this organization. He does his work, like all the other BJCP folks, on a strictly volunteer basis; there are other real-life obligations, and sometimes those will take precedence. The entire BJCP organization is a volunteer-run, not-for-profit organization that is driven by good-will. That, in and of itself, is a = testament to the strength and effectiveness of the BJCP members and volunteers. Go to the BJCP website and check the list of competition reports that are delinquent (http://207.89.201.107/Reports/delinq.html). That is the = first step. Next look to see if the competition report has been filed (http://207.89.201.107/Reports/completed.html). If the competition is not in either database, then they were not BJCP sanctioned and you will = not get points. That is something to find out about in advance of the competition if you are interested in earning BJCP points. It sounds to me like your issues are pretty unique (or perhaps it is your outlook that is unique). I am not certain what your motivation in = being a BJCP member is, but most of us are doing this for the camaraderie, the escape value from our day-to-day routine, and because = we love beer. The BJCP is a volunteer-run, not-for-profit organization = that is driven by good-will. John C. Tull Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Reno, NV On Jan 29, 2004, at 10:01 PM, JudgeNet - the beer judge digest wrote: > Table of contents > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Fed up with BJCP > > From: Greg Beron > Date: January 29, 2004 9:14:49 AM PST > To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest > Subject: Fed up with BJCP > Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" > > > WARNING: If you're not in the mood for long rants, skip this. >   > I've been reading the recent postings about the BJCP exam with some > interest, waiting to see if anyone else has had the same experience > I've had with the organization.  My experience also makes me question > the accuracy of the statistics posted yesterday.  Maybe I'm unique in > this, but so far my experience with BJCP has been so poor that I'm > glad there are no annual dues - because I wouldn't be renewing. =A0 >   > The exam was fine as far as I was concerned.  While I also questioned > the need to know all the styles by heart, I do recognize the need for > judges to be able to demonstrate a certain minimum knowledge and > that's one way of assessing it.  I'm sure the reason the exam went = > smoothly was that BJCP had minimum involvement and the actual > organization was by the Maltose Falcons.  They're well organized and > have a lot of experienced brewers and judges - especially Bruce Brode, = > who proctored the exam.  And no, I'm not a Falcon. >   > That was also pretty much the last good experience I had with BJCP.   I > don't know what the average wait for results is.  I've heard 3 months, > but that's anecdotal. =A0How about 5 1/2 months??? =A0 That's how long we > waited to find out how we did.  It's also nearly as long as I > waited get bar results from two states - combined! =A0 >   > Finally, in March 2003, I sent a message to Russ Wigglesworth, > explaining that I would be judging in the upcoming AHA first round = > and Mayfaire competitions and wanted to be able to do that as a > Recognized Judge, at the least.  He explained that a grader had bailed > but we'd be getting results soon.  He also offered to take my > experience points via return e-mail so they'd be entered sooner.  I = > was happy to do that and replied quickly, since by my count I had 4. 5 = > points from stewarding and judging over the two previous years. >   > Soon after, I got my results and was extremely happy to find out I'd = > scored comfortably within the range to be a National Judge.  All I = > needed was enough experience points. >   > Does anyone want to guess how many points I have now, nearly a year > later?  In addition to the 4.5 I should have gone in with, I've judged > in 2 competitions and was database administrator for another.  There = > would have been more but I'm a partner in our local homebrew supply > store and we have to take turns judging.  >   > Did anyone guess im currently credited with 1 point - from a > competition held last April? >   > Bottom line, I'm disgusted.  A year ago, I was primed to judge often=20 > so I could get to National within a few years.  Now?  Forget it.  Last > year I went down to San Diego to judge in QUAFF's America's Finest > City competition and was planning to judge there again as well as > going over to Las Vegas for SNAFU's Winterfest.  Now I'm going to > judge only in those competitions which are nearby and don't > inconvenience me too much.  If Pacific Gravity needs me to act as an = > organizer for a competition, I'll probably do it, but a year ago I was > ready to volunteer at the first opportunity. >   > Given that roughly 20% of judges achieve National status, I wonder how > many might have but just gave up out of frustration.  I may still make > National one day, but it won't be any day soon because if the people = > who run an organization can't be bothered to show any real interest in > it, neither can I.  >   > > > E-mail responsibly. Check this site before passing rumors: > http://www.hoaxkill.com/ > > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Wilson Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:02:51 -0800 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 > Does anyone want to guess how many points I have now, nearly a year later? In addition to the 4.5 I should have gone in with, I've judged in 2 competitions and was database administrator for another. There would have been more but I'm a partner in our local homebrew supply store and we have to take turns judging. > > Did anyone guess im currently credited with 1 point - from a competition held last April? Did you check to see if the competition organizers sent in their reports for these competitions? I would guess that's the problem 99% of the time: http://207.89.201.107/Reports/delinq.html http://207.89.201.107/Reports/completed.html Note, the competition must be BJCP sanctioned in order for you to get points. The BJCP penalizes the organizer by witholding their points if they don't get the report in within 2 weeks. Other than that, I'm not sure what else they can do. Many competitions may not even be run by a BJCP judge! Yes, it sucks to not get points for judging effort. I've missed many points over the years. It's also a good way for organizers to shoot themselves in the foot for next year, as it WILL decrease judge participation. -Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark W. Wilson mwilson`at`agora.rdrop.com Portland, OR http://www.rdrop.com/users/mwilson ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Harsh Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:27:14 -0500 Subject: Exam Content, Format, Feedback, Rants Hello all- I seems that this thread has gotten pretty off topic from where it started: 1. Expected content of "good" exams This really has not been discussed very much. Scott Bickham was the first person who I have EVER heard say that you should not provide initial and final gravities, IBUs at least in the ballpark. Note the following text from my graders guideline: "The examinee should describe each of the styles with an emphasis on listing both important statistical parameters (like original and final gravity, color, alcohol content, bittering levels)..." This is not ambiguous in my opinion - if you don't mention these statistics at all, there should be point deductions. N.B. "AN EMPHASIS ON LISTING...." Am I wrong? Scott mentioned that he had seen 80+ scores that didn't mention these data. I suppose that's possible if you get 50 points from the five technical questions and average 6 points each from the 5 style questions. I guess my real question is - "can you get a 90 without mentioning the beer stats?" I don't see how. One quick point before I go on- as a grader I received two "scoring guide" documents and I think they should be widely available. After all, if I retake the exam, I'll have access to them so why shouldn't anyone else? I know its nothing new under the sun as far as exam content, but that puts everyone on the same page. 2. Exam format This thread started from the questioning of the need for retaking the exam to advance. (note that it has now morphed into discussions of time managment and whether tasting should be separate from essay writing) There have been two reasons supporting the current format: 1. We've always done it this way. (I'm glad someone said it outright) 2. Master judges give you good scoresheets so that's proof it works. This doesn't mean that the current (10 essay question-70%, 4 beers judged-30%) format is ideal, just that it works. If anything, we have an exam that is slanted in favor of people who write good essays AND are good judges in contrast to just people who are good judges. Being able to write an essay about Trappist vs. abbey beers is fine, but I have trouble seeing it as a necessary requirement to being a good beer judge. Yes, I understand the depth of knowledge of argument, but I've never received a scoresheet that mentioned that my IPA would have been more to style 300 years ago when England ruled the waves. It seems like if we are really certifying judging ability, we should put more weight on judging. Ideally, we should do the following: 1. Give judging more weight 2. Judge more beers 3. Have (or enforce) ranking requirements for exam proctors I'm not saying it should be easy to be a Master judge, but we should be sure our methodology is designed to measure the required skills. 3. Feedback to Examinees If you don't get a detailed RTP on your exam, you should complain and complain loudly. Graders are asked to give question by question feedback and be specific about errors and/or omissions. A far cry from the half page of vague comments I got. I've often wondered if the opportunity to review your exam (not keep a copy, just read it over with your RTP at hand), especially since my own RTP mentioned only one specific error. That would be more work for the exam administrator, but probably useful for the program. In my experience as an educator, students would often express shock that they had written something so idiotic on their exam and understood their grade much better. It might not make one happy about the grade, but being able to see the exam puts things in perspective. 4. Rants Greg- the BJCP isn't perfect. It operates 100% on volunteers and sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes volunteer graders (like me recently) get snowed under with obligations they can't shirk and volunteer stuff gets put on the back burner. I'm sorry, but there are things in my life that are more important than judging beer. I doubt that bar exams use volunteer lawyers as graders. (Sorry, but I should mention that "Volunteer Lawyers" would make a great name for a rock band) I do hope that when you make National, you'll volunteer to help grade - when you sit on that side of the exam, you get a different perspective. You'll realize that every grader isn't *total* twit. If you haven't gotten experience points from competitions, its possible that the competition organizer never submitted the points. Have you asked them? The BJCP website used to list un-received competition reports (does it still?) and that could be the problem. That's my $.02. Dave Harsh Cincinnati, OH National, undecided on retaking the exam for several years now. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: XZYMURGIST`at`aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:27:09 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 In a message dated 1/30/04 1:44:29 AM, judge`at`synchro.com writes: << There would have been more but I'm a partner in our local homebrew supply store and we have to take turns judging. Did anyone guess im currently credited with 1 point - from a competition held last April? Bottom line, I'm disgusted. >> I hate to be cynical, but does this guy want the points to further the homebrew supply store? Being a judge is not all about points, but about furthering the hobby of homebrewing by giving constructive criticism to entrants. it is an all volunteer organization with no dues, so patience should be the rule with respect to recording points. To paraphrase a hackneyed expression, "It's the beer, stupid!" Roman Davis BJCP National(But does it really matter?) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:45:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Fed up with BJCP At 10:01 PM 1/29/2004, Greg Beron wrote: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: Greg Beron Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:14:49 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Fed up with BJCP >Bottom line, I'm disgusted. A year ago, I was primed to judge often so I >could get to National within a few years. Now? Forget it. Last year I >went down to San Diego to judge in QUAFF's America's Finest City >competition and was planning to judge there again as well as going over to >Las Vegas for SNAFU's Winterfest. Now I'm going to judge only in those >competitions which are nearby and don't inconvenience me too much. Greg, your frustration is understandable. But are you sure the BJCP is at fault? The only trouble I've ever had with getting points were when the competition organizer submitted the competition form late, or not at all. The BJCP can only credit you with points when they are informed of them. And if it turns out the BJCP is at fault here, you have to think about why you got into judging in the first place. QUAFF and the Falcons still need judges, and their competitions are still organized locally and benefit from volunteer judges. Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 1/30/2004 - 2/2/2004 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:15:09 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC, Reno NV (John C.Tull) 2. RE: Fed up with BJCP (Denis Barsalo) 3. Re: Fed up with BJCP (David Houseman) 4. re: fed up with BJCP (kevin pratt) 5. Fed up with BJCP (Mike Dixon) 6. Regarding misOrganization at the BJCP (Kevin Barry) 7. Re: Fed up (John C.Tull) 8. Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 (Mark Wilson) 9. Exam Content, Format, Feedback, Rants (David Harsh) 10. Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 (XZYMURGIST`at`aol.com) 11. Re: Fed up with BJCP (Bryan L. Gros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John C.Tull Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:56:08 -0800 Subject: Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists HBC, Reno NV I want to invite the members of this list to participate in the 2004 Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Hombrew Competition here in Reno, NV. We will be judging Sunday 29 February 2004, with entries due from 7-21 February 2004. Last year we had over 100 entries, and the BOS winner brewed their beer at the Great Basin Brewing Company. Likewise, this year's BOS winner will brew their winning recipe at Silver Peak Brewery & Restaurant. If you plan to enter and are in the Sacramento or Bay Area, please see the entry options on the webpage. If you would like to enter your homebrew, or volunteer to steward or judge, please visit our competition web page for all the details, and for online registration. Email me if you have any questions. http://134.197.55.114/wzz/wzz-comp2004.html Cheers, John C. Tull ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Denis Barsalo Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:34:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Fed up with BJCP Greg Beron blames wholly the BJCP for his judge and organizer points not being posted. Possibly he ignores the fact that several competition organizers do not return judging results in a timely fashion thus not even giving the BJCP a chance to receive them, let alone post them. At last count, I could see at least 45 competitions over the last year and a half who have yet to file organizer reports! Additionally, my experiences have been with volunteer organizations are, if you are disgusted and frustrated with the way things are run, you don't just rant about them, you get involved and create change. There are elections coming up shortly for BJCP positions. Maybe Greg would like to fill one of them, get on the BJCP board and improve the things that causes him (and others) frustration. IMO, if you are not willing to get involved in a volunteer organization to improve it then you shouldn't rant in public! Cheers, Denis ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Houseman Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:14:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Fed up with BJCP Greg, I certainly understand the frustration with having to wait 5 1/2 months for your results. That's longer than typical of course. With an all-volunteer army we're at the mercy of other judges who volunteer their time to grade exams. These things do happen. For an organization that doesn't even charge dues, we do a pretty good job, IMHO. Want paid staff and graders? What would members pay for that?!! Besides that point, I'm not sure from reading your email what your complaint with the BJCP is? We don't schedule the competitions or run them; that's up to local organizes. We don't schedule your work or travel schedule to judge. Sometimes we might get a little behind in posting experience points, but that is being addressed with on-line filing of organizer reports directly to the database. And up until last year we had to wait for an annual mailing to find out the status of our points posting to the database; now with Gordon's IT leadership we have on-line access that's much closer to real-time. I share your frustration at how long it takes to get some things done, and most of those are being worked on by the volunteers that make up this organization. But other than that, I see what the complaint is or what the rant is about. In fact, not too bad a rant ... more of a valid complaint. Dave Houseman ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kevin pratt Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: fed up with BJCP QUOTE: Well, I can certainly understand the frustration. The stats were just that, stats. Based on only the limited information available publicly. What the stats don't tell are drop-out rates, points to score eligibility or current standings as of the last points update. They are simply a snapshot. It took me 10 years of judging when I could to get even close to 20 points. That accounts for all of the contests where points weren't turned in or I recieved less than I should have (judged multiple days, BOS; only 1 point awarded). And that's just where all is well in other peoples lives. Judges have bailed as organizers, graders and board members due to a variety of reasons. Job changes, house fires, relocation, divorce or illness just to name a few reasons. There is not enough depth in the volunteers for the more time consuming jobs (like test grading) to instantly adapt to every change. As for the other stats I posted, they just show achievement. When both score and points match a level, there's the number. They don't show high scores and low points or vice versa. It is, after all a hobby. You may spend as much or as little time as you wish and may reserve the right to prioritize. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:31:22 -0500 Subject: Fed up with BJCP Greg, I suggest you check and see if those comps were always BJCP registered and if the reports are in. Our local club held a competition a few years back and did not register the competition since it was put together at the last minute. Hopefully that is not what happened in your case. You can generally contact the organizer for the competition in question and get the points added in. Delinquent reports... http://207.89.201.107/Reports/delinq.html Report submitted... http://207.89.201.107/Reports/completed.html Granted that information is not always up to date, but it can give you a headstart in tracking down missing points. Lots of reports are available here http://207.89.201.107/BJCP_Reports.html Anyway, I can feel your pain on the long wait for exam results. I figure it is a part of the process since we are a volunteer organization. Cheers, Mike ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Barry Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:53:34 -0800 Subject: Regarding misOrganization at the BJCP I'll throw my hat in the ring as one who finds the organization of the BJCP lacking. As long as the topic is out there. I took and passed the exam with a high enough score to be certified. That was nearly three years ago. The BJCP quickly posted 1.5 points retroactively. Since that time, I've judged in NINE BJCP sponsored competitions. My point total is currently 4.5 (or at least it was when I last checked about 30 days ago.) Now why would I even consider giving the BJCP more money to re-take the exam to try and become National? At this rate, I will have to judge in 36 more competitions before the organization gets around to awarding me enough experience points to qualify. I brought missing points to the attention of the BJCP via e-mail and got a response that the competition organizers are responsible for reporting the points correctly. Fine, I'll buy that, but two of the competitions in question were INCREDIBLY well organized. Judges arrived to find all their score sheets, flight list, and competition evaluation forms completely filled out and ready with our BJCP numbers attached. How then, between the amazing level of organization by the club hosting the event and the BJCP, do the records get lost? (BTW, Tip of the pint glass to Strand Brewers for running such excellent competitions. No, I'm not a member.) I realize that the BJCP is all volunteer and that they have to deal with judges from the entire country, but is a completely ineffectual certifying organization really better than no organization at all? Kevin Barry NatSat 8075 W. 3rd St. #504 Los Angeles, CA 90048 323-857-0777 323-939-9475 fax ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John C.Tull Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:40:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Fed up Generally, if you are not getting experience points, it is either because the competition organizer failed to return a report, you were omitted from the list, or the points have not been processed for your record yet. I organize our annual competition here in Reno, NV, and I have erred by leaving off an individual. This is rare, but mistakes are = made. Additionally, Russ is a one-man show. He has been planning to "retire" from his position as Program Administrator for some time now. = Sometimes things get backed up, but Russ does an excellent job and has = worked his tail off for this organization. He does his work, like all the other BJCP folks, on a strictly volunteer basis; there are other real-life obligations, and sometimes those will take precedence. The entire BJCP organization is a volunteer-run, not-for-profit organization that is driven by good-will. That, in and of itself, is a = testament to the strength and effectiveness of the BJCP members and volunteers. Go to the BJCP website and check the list of competition reports that are delinquent (http://207.89.201.107/Reports/delinq.html). That is the = first step. Next look to see if the competition report has been filed (http://207.89.201.107/Reports/completed.html). If the competition is not in either database, then they were not BJCP sanctioned and you will = not get points. That is something to find out about in advance of the competition if you are interested in earning BJCP points. It sounds to me like your issues are pretty unique (or perhaps it is your outlook that is unique). I am not certain what your motivation in = being a BJCP member is, but most of us are doing this for the camaraderie, the escape value from our day-to-day routine, and because = we love beer. The BJCP is a volunteer-run, not-for-profit organization = that is driven by good-will. John C. Tull Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists Reno, NV On Jan 29, 2004, at 10:01 PM, JudgeNet - the beer judge digest wrote: > Table of contents > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Fed up with BJCP > > From: Greg Beron > Date: January 29, 2004 9:14:49 AM PST > To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest > Subject: Fed up with BJCP > Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" > > > WARNING: If you're not in the mood for long rants, skip this. >   > I've been reading the recent postings about the BJCP exam with some > interest, waiting to see if anyone else has had the same experience > I've had with the organization.  My experience also makes me question > the accuracy of the statistics posted yesterday.  Maybe I'm unique in > this, but so far my experience with BJCP has been so poor that I'm > glad there are no annual dues - because I wouldn't be renewing. =A0 >   > The exam was fine as far as I was concerned.  While I also questioned > the need to know all the styles by heart, I do recognize the need for > judges to be able to demonstrate a certain minimum knowledge and > that's one way of assessing it.  I'm sure the reason the exam went = > smoothly was that BJCP had minimum involvement and the actual > organization was by the Maltose Falcons.  They're well organized and > have a lot of experienced brewers and judges - especially Bruce Brode, = > who proctored the exam.  And no, I'm not a Falcon. >   > That was also pretty much the last good experience I had with BJCP.   I > don't know what the average wait for results is.  I've heard 3 months, > but that's anecdotal. =A0How about 5 1/2 months??? =A0 That's how long we > waited to find out how we did.  It's also nearly as long as I > waited get bar results from two states - combined! =A0 >   > Finally, in March 2003, I sent a message to Russ Wigglesworth, > explaining that I would be judging in the upcoming AHA first round = > and Mayfaire competitions and wanted to be able to do that as a > Recognized Judge, at the least.  He explained that a grader had bailed > but we'd be getting results soon.  He also offered to take my > experience points via return e-mail so they'd be entered sooner.  I = > was happy to do that and replied quickly, since by my count I had 4. 5 = > points from stewarding and judging over the two previous years. >   > Soon after, I got my results and was extremely happy to find out I'd = > scored comfortably within the range to be a National Judge.  All I = > needed was enough experience points. >   > Does anyone want to guess how many points I have now, nearly a year > later?  In addition to the 4.5 I should have gone in with, I've judged > in 2 competitions and was database administrator for another.  There = > would have been more but I'm a partner in our local homebrew supply > store and we have to take turns judging.  >   > Did anyone guess im currently credited with 1 point - from a > competition held last April? >   > Bottom line, I'm disgusted.  A year ago, I was primed to judge often=20 > so I could get to National within a few years.  Now?  Forget it.  Last > year I went down to San Diego to judge in QUAFF's America's Finest > City competition and was planning to judge there again as well as > going over to Las Vegas for SNAFU's Winterfest.  Now I'm going to > judge only in those competitions which are nearby and don't > inconvenience me too much.  If Pacific Gravity needs me to act as an = > organizer for a competition, I'll probably do it, but a year ago I was > ready to volunteer at the first opportunity. >   > Given that roughly 20% of judges achieve National status, I wonder how > many might have but just gave up out of frustration.  I may still make > National one day, but it won't be any day soon because if the people = > who run an organization can't be bothered to show any real interest in > it, neither can I.  >   > > > E-mail responsibly. Check this site before passing rumors: > http://www.hoaxkill.com/ > > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Wilson Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:02:51 -0800 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 > Does anyone want to guess how many points I have now, nearly a year later? In addition to the 4.5 I should have gone in with, I've judged in 2 competitions and was database administrator for another. There would have been more but I'm a partner in our local homebrew supply store and we have to take turns judging. > > Did anyone guess im currently credited with 1 point - from a competition held last April? Did you check to see if the competition organizers sent in their reports for these competitions? I would guess that's the problem 99% of the time: http://207.89.201.107/Reports/delinq.html http://207.89.201.107/Reports/completed.html Note, the competition must be BJCP sanctioned in order for you to get points. The BJCP penalizes the organizer by witholding their points if they don't get the report in within 2 weeks. Other than that, I'm not sure what else they can do. Many competitions may not even be run by a BJCP judge! Yes, it sucks to not get points for judging effort. I've missed many points over the years. It's also a good way for organizers to shoot themselves in the foot for next year, as it WILL decrease judge participation. -Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark W. Wilson mwilson`at`agora.rdrop.com Portland, OR http://www.rdrop.com/users/mwilson ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Harsh Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:27:14 -0500 Subject: Exam Content, Format, Feedback, Rants Hello all- I seems that this thread has gotten pretty off topic from where it started: 1. Expected content of "good" exams This really has not been discussed very much. Scott Bickham was the first person who I have EVER heard say that you should not provide initial and final gravities, IBUs at least in the ballpark. Note the following text from my graders guideline: "The examinee should describe each of the styles with an emphasis on listing both important statistical parameters (like original and final gravity, color, alcohol content, bittering levels)..." This is not ambiguous in my opinion - if you don't mention these statistics at all, there should be point deductions. N.B. "AN EMPHASIS ON LISTING...." Am I wrong? Scott mentioned that he had seen 80+ scores that didn't mention these data. I suppose that's possible if you get 50 points from the five technical questions and average 6 points each from the 5 style questions. I guess my real question is - "can you get a 90 without mentioning the beer stats?" I don't see how. One quick point before I go on- as a grader I received two "scoring guide" documents and I think they should be widely available. After all, if I retake the exam, I'll have access to them so why shouldn't anyone else? I know its nothing new under the sun as far as exam content, but that puts everyone on the same page. 2. Exam format This thread started from the questioning of the need for retaking the exam to advance. (note that it has now morphed into discussions of time managment and whether tasting should be separate from essay writing) There have been two reasons supporting the current format: 1. We've always done it this way. (I'm glad someone said it outright) 2. Master judges give you good scoresheets so that's proof it works. This doesn't mean that the current (10 essay question-70%, 4 beers judged-30%) format is ideal, just that it works. If anything, we have an exam that is slanted in favor of people who write good essays AND are good judges in contrast to just people who are good judges. Being able to write an essay about Trappist vs. abbey beers is fine, but I have trouble seeing it as a necessary requirement to being a good beer judge. Yes, I understand the depth of knowledge of argument, but I've never received a scoresheet that mentioned that my IPA would have been more to style 300 years ago when England ruled the waves. It seems like if we are really certifying judging ability, we should put more weight on judging. Ideally, we should do the following: 1. Give judging more weight 2. Judge more beers 3. Have (or enforce) ranking requirements for exam proctors I'm not saying it should be easy to be a Master judge, but we should be sure our methodology is designed to measure the required skills. 3. Feedback to Examinees If you don't get a detailed RTP on your exam, you should complain and complain loudly. Graders are asked to give question by question feedback and be specific about errors and/or omissions. A far cry from the half page of vague comments I got. I've often wondered if the opportunity to review your exam (not keep a copy, just read it over with your RTP at hand), especially since my own RTP mentioned only one specific error. That would be more work for the exam administrator, but probably useful for the program. In my experience as an educator, students would often express shock that they had written something so idiotic on their exam and understood their grade much better. It might not make one happy about the grade, but being able to see the exam puts things in perspective. 4. Rants Greg- the BJCP isn't perfect. It operates 100% on volunteers and sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes volunteer graders (like me recently) get snowed under with obligations they can't shirk and volunteer stuff gets put on the back burner. I'm sorry, but there are things in my life that are more important than judging beer. I doubt that bar exams use volunteer lawyers as graders. (Sorry, but I should mention that "Volunteer Lawyers" would make a great name for a rock band) I do hope that when you make National, you'll volunteer to help grade - when you sit on that side of the exam, you get a different perspective. You'll realize that every grader isn't *total* twit. If you haven't gotten experience points from competitions, its possible that the competition organizer never submitted the points. Have you asked them? The BJCP website used to list un-received competition reports (does it still?) and that could be the problem. That's my $.02. Dave Harsh Cincinnati, OH National, undecided on retaking the exam for several years now. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: XZYMURGIST`at`aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:27:09 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/29/2004 - 1/30/2004 In a message dated 1/30/04 1:44:29 AM, judge`at`synchro.com writes: << There would have been more but I'm a partner in our local homebrew supply store and we have to take turns judging. Did anyone guess im currently credited with 1 point - from a competition held last April? Bottom line, I'm disgusted. >> I hate to be cynical, but does this guy want the points to further the homebrew supply store? Being a judge is not all about points, but about furthering the hobby of homebrewing by giving constructive criticism to entrants. it is an all volunteer organization with no dues, so patience should be the rule with respect to recording points. To paraphrase a hackneyed expression, "It's the beer, stupid!" Roman Davis BJCP National(But does it really matter?) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:45:26 -0800 Subject: Re: Fed up with BJCP At 10:01 PM 1/29/2004, Greg Beron wrote: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: Greg Beron Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:14:49 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Fed up with BJCP >Bottom line, I'm disgusted. A year ago, I was primed to judge often so I >could get to National within a few years. Now? Forget it. Last year I >went down to San Diego to judge in QUAFF's America's Finest City >competition and was planning to judge there again as well as going over to >Las Vegas for SNAFU's Winterfest. Now I'm going to judge only in those >competitions which are nearby and don't inconvenience me too much. Greg, your frustration is understandable. But are you sure the BJCP is at fault? The only trouble I've ever had with getting points were when the competition organizer submitted the competition form late, or not at all. The BJCP can only credit you with points when they are informed of them. And if it turns out the BJCP is at fault here, you have to think about why you got into judging in the first place. QUAFF and the Falcons still need judges, and their competitions are still organized locally and benefit from volunteer judges. Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************