Subject: Digest for the period 1/15/2004 - 1/16/2004 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:04:50 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: BJCP Exam Heresy (Mark Tumarkin) 2. Exam Heresy (Pete) 3. Re: Digest for the period 1/14/2004 - 1/15/2004 (Bill Wible) 4. Re: BJCP Exam Heresy (Peter Torgrimson) 5. BJCP Testing (TashFam`at`aol.com) 6. Re: BJCP Exam Heresy (Greg Lorton) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Tumarkin Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:14:20 -0500 Subject: Re: BJCP Exam Heresy Dion asks - "Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? To me, this seems unrealistic. Since at every judging we are given the complete style guidelines, what is the benefit of having to memorize them?" It may be heresy, but you've got a lot of heretics in the same boat with you. I hate to admit it, but as I get older I have a harder time with the memorization that would have been (at least relatively) easier earlier. In large part, it's just a hoop of fire you have to jump through to join the club. The difference between scoring in the 70's for certified, and 80 or 90+ for National or Master depends on being able to memorize the numbers in addition to the broad understandings necessary to gain even a passing score. Does this make you a better judge? I'm in agreement with you that it doesn't. I guess it does mean that you've internalized the data and can then bring it up reliably in geeky conversations .... that is if your long term storage works well. I find that I can't recall once memorized data as well as I used to either. I too am only Certified, though I also long have enough points for National. In fact after a couple more competitions this season I'll have enough for Master. I do plan on trying to cram the data into my brain and retaking the exam, but it will be very tough for me to get a high enough score for National, let alone Master. But I'll give it my best shot. I did have a conversation with Bill Slack at the NHC in Chicago last summer concerning his thoughts about an alternate route to Master (but you'd have to achieve National already). I believe he brought this up for the BJCP Board to consider. The idea involves accumulating points through judging and service that will raise your test score. It will probably take a lot of experience points to equal a test point, and it may never be accepted. So, as I said I'm planning on retaking the test. Maybe I'll be able to jump through the ring of fire without getting burned. Mark Tumarkin Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pete Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:00:08 -0500 Subject: Exam Heresy Thanks for bringing it up, Dion... It has always seemed silly to me, especally as not only descriptions but even style catagory numbers and letters get changed between revs. Those of us who ARE able to memorize (if only briefly) the names/numbers/letters (not to mention the og/fg ranges) are filling our heads with volitile data. Agreed, the 'Where's, 'Why's and 'How's of styles tend to be pretty well set in stone and good to know, but the other stuff DOES seem pretty silly. After all, as you point out, we look it up every time ANYway... no? In agreement Pete Bussa ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Wible Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:06:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/14/2004 - 1/15/2004 > Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the > BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? To me, this seems > unrealistic. Since at every judging we are given the complete style > guidelines, what is the benefit of having to memorize them? It seems to me > that we should be allowed to have a copy of the guidelines while taking the > test, putting us in the same environment that we would have while judging. I asked the same thing when I took the exam, and I still agree. Why does the BJCP require people to memorize something judges can have access to while judging? If you are allowed to have a copy of the BJCP style guidelines in front of you when you judge, then why not when you take the exam? Wherein lies the difference? Especially for someone who has taken and passed the exam at least once! The guidelines are not going to aid you in the majority of test questions, like troubleshooting, reasons to boil wort, recipe formulation, etc. They may help just a little with "compare and contrast" type questions, though. So big whoop. Get rid of those questions. I can only guess its one of those "rites of passage" that they want you to have to go through. Bill ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Torgrimson Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:46:18 -0600 Subject: Re: BJCP Exam Heresy Dion Hollenbeck writes about the rote memorization in the BJCP exam. I agree that the details, particularly all of the numbers, can be deadly. I have a more middle-of-the-road view. There is a lot of rote memorization, but over time I believe some of it sinks in permanently and helps to support a more comprehensive and integrated knowledge of beer. This is particularly useful in comparing beer styles, both on the exam and in real-life judging. In those situations it is helpful to to be able to discuss the issue without having to refer to the style guide directly. I agree that knowing the beer styles data for the test does not necessarily make someone a good judge. It does ensure, depending on score, that the test taker knew something about beer at the time of taking the test. Peter Torgrimson Austin. TX ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TashFam`at`aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:51:56 EST Subject: BJCP Testing BJCP Testing >>Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? << =A0     I'm not sure I am qualified to answer your question, I have taken the BJCP test (twice) and I'm not good at memorizing the Style Guide either. =20I also tend to freeze up during a test.  It was explained to me that if you know the style guide, it will give you the skills to be a better judge. By relying on the Style Guide to refresh your memory you are slowing down the competition. =A0     It would be nice if there was a way to have judging points improve your test score.  For example every 10 judging points you have earned your test score would be increase by 1 point. Maybe even put a maximum on the number of points you could add to your test score this way (10) or only be able to be raised one level (from Certified to National). =A0 This might be a way to award people for judging a lot of competitions and show that judging experience is important. =A0 I really don't know if this idea would work, but I am interested to hear what others think about it. And for the record, I currently only have 19 judging points and 3 more points on my test=20 would raise my level. =A0  =A0 The BJCP test will never be perfect, but I do encourage people to take it and make suggestions on ways to improve it. I'm not sure I answered Dion's question, but I hope to spark a conversation. Ed Tash Damn, your drunk test are hard. =A0     Steve Martian, in "The Man With Two Brains" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Lorton Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:58:44 -0800 Subject: Re: BJCP Exam Heresy >From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:56:47 -0800 >Subject: BJCP Exam Heresy > > > >Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the >BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? Hey Dion! I think your question relates to variability among graders rather than an overall formal expectation that a National (or Master) judge must be able to rattle off stats without the benefit of style guides at hand. I personally don't think that anyone needs to demonstrate "exact" memorization of the guideline statistics to demonstrate superior knowledge. But as a grader, I'm looking for a "close" approximation of the more important statistics (OG, IBUs, and SRM). If an exam-taker can right down statistics that are close to the "real" numbers, then they are demonstrating a depth of knowledge that would translate to a high grade (other parts of the answer being equally high, of course). If you tell me that the OG of an Oktoberfest was 1.048 to 1.060 (guidelines say 1.050 to 1.064), I would probably give you full credit, assuming that the rest of your description of the style was consistent with the style. If you said that the OG of a barley wine was 1.040 to 1.060, then I would probably grade you down for it. For me, it's a matter of degree, and I speak only for myself, and not for any BJCP grading policy. And I suspect that there may be graders out there who will nail you if you said the Oktoberfest was 1.050 to 1.063. But I would like to reward someone who attempts to list the OG, IBU, and SRM and comes close versus someone who tries to play it safe by not listing the stats at all. Again, I see it as a "depth of knowledge" issue. My own pet peeve is that some graders don't seem to recognize the 3-hour limit on the exam, and are seeking an absolutely perfect answer to get a 10. (It often seems that a perfect score gets a 9.) I was personally disappointed that I was graded down on the question about four styles of stouts because I failed to mention the importance of English taxes in driving down the OG of these styles generations ago! If I had 30 minutes per question (instead of roughly 15), I might have gotten around to the taxation part. :-) Cheers Greg Lorton Former Retired Past President Emeritus of QUAFF and still only a National :-) :-) :-) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 1/15/2004 - 1/16/2004 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:04:50 -0500 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: BJCP Exam Heresy (Mark Tumarkin) 2. Exam Heresy (Pete) 3. Re: Digest for the period 1/14/2004 - 1/15/2004 (Bill Wible) 4. Re: BJCP Exam Heresy (Peter Torgrimson) 5. BJCP Testing (TashFam`at`aol.com) 6. Re: BJCP Exam Heresy (Greg Lorton) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Tumarkin Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:14:20 -0500 Subject: Re: BJCP Exam Heresy Dion asks - "Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? To me, this seems unrealistic. Since at every judging we are given the complete style guidelines, what is the benefit of having to memorize them?" It may be heresy, but you've got a lot of heretics in the same boat with you. I hate to admit it, but as I get older I have a harder time with the memorization that would have been (at least relatively) easier earlier. In large part, it's just a hoop of fire you have to jump through to join the club. The difference between scoring in the 70's for certified, and 80 or 90+ for National or Master depends on being able to memorize the numbers in addition to the broad understandings necessary to gain even a passing score. Does this make you a better judge? I'm in agreement with you that it doesn't. I guess it does mean that you've internalized the data and can then bring it up reliably in geeky conversations .... that is if your long term storage works well. I find that I can't recall once memorized data as well as I used to either. I too am only Certified, though I also long have enough points for National. In fact after a couple more competitions this season I'll have enough for Master. I do plan on trying to cram the data into my brain and retaking the exam, but it will be very tough for me to get a high enough score for National, let alone Master. But I'll give it my best shot. I did have a conversation with Bill Slack at the NHC in Chicago last summer concerning his thoughts about an alternate route to Master (but you'd have to achieve National already). I believe he brought this up for the BJCP Board to consider. The idea involves accumulating points through judging and service that will raise your test score. It will probably take a lot of experience points to equal a test point, and it may never be accepted. So, as I said I'm planning on retaking the test. Maybe I'll be able to jump through the ring of fire without getting burned. Mark Tumarkin Hogtown Brewers Gainesville, FL ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pete Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:00:08 -0500 Subject: Exam Heresy Thanks for bringing it up, Dion... It has always seemed silly to me, especally as not only descriptions but even style catagory numbers and letters get changed between revs. Those of us who ARE able to memorize (if only briefly) the names/numbers/letters (not to mention the og/fg ranges) are filling our heads with volitile data. Agreed, the 'Where's, 'Why's and 'How's of styles tend to be pretty well set in stone and good to know, but the other stuff DOES seem pretty silly. After all, as you point out, we look it up every time ANYway... no? In agreement Pete Bussa ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Wible Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:06:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 1/14/2004 - 1/15/2004 > Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the > BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? To me, this seems > unrealistic. Since at every judging we are given the complete style > guidelines, what is the benefit of having to memorize them? It seems to me > that we should be allowed to have a copy of the guidelines while taking the > test, putting us in the same environment that we would have while judging. I asked the same thing when I took the exam, and I still agree. Why does the BJCP require people to memorize something judges can have access to while judging? If you are allowed to have a copy of the BJCP style guidelines in front of you when you judge, then why not when you take the exam? Wherein lies the difference? Especially for someone who has taken and passed the exam at least once! The guidelines are not going to aid you in the majority of test questions, like troubleshooting, reasons to boil wort, recipe formulation, etc. They may help just a little with "compare and contrast" type questions, though. So big whoop. Get rid of those questions. I can only guess its one of those "rites of passage" that they want you to have to go through. Bill ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Torgrimson Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:46:18 -0600 Subject: Re: BJCP Exam Heresy Dion Hollenbeck writes about the rote memorization in the BJCP exam. I agree that the details, particularly all of the numbers, can be deadly. I have a more middle-of-the-road view. There is a lot of rote memorization, but over time I believe some of it sinks in permanently and helps to support a more comprehensive and integrated knowledge of beer. This is particularly useful in comparing beer styles, both on the exam and in real-life judging. In those situations it is helpful to to be able to discuss the issue without having to refer to the style guide directly. I agree that knowing the beer styles data for the test does not necessarily make someone a good judge. It does ensure, depending on score, that the test taker knew something about beer at the time of taking the test. Peter Torgrimson Austin. TX ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TashFam`at`aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:51:56 EST Subject: BJCP Testing BJCP Testing >>Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? << =A0     I'm not sure I am qualified to answer your question, I have taken the BJCP test (twice) and I'm not good at memorizing the Style Guide either. =20I also tend to freeze up during a test.  It was explained to me that if you know the style guide, it will give you the skills to be a better judge. By relying on the Style Guide to refresh your memory you are slowing down the competition. =A0     It would be nice if there was a way to have judging points improve your test score.  For example every 10 judging points you have earned your test score would be increase by 1 point. Maybe even put a maximum on the number of points you could add to your test score this way (10) or only be able to be raised one level (from Certified to National). =A0 This might be a way to award people for judging a lot of competitions and show that judging experience is important. =A0 I really don't know if this idea would work, but I am interested to hear what others think about it. And for the record, I currently only have 19 judging points and 3 more points on my test=20 would raise my level. =A0  =A0 The BJCP test will never be perfect, but I do encourage people to take it and make suggestions on ways to improve it. I'm not sure I answered Dion's question, but I hope to spark a conversation. Ed Tash Damn, your drunk test are hard. =A0     Steve Martian, in "The Man With Two Brains" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Lorton Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:58:44 -0800 Subject: Re: BJCP Exam Heresy >From: Dion Hollenbeck Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:56:47 -0800 >Subject: BJCP Exam Heresy > > > >Can anyone give me a valid reason for requiring rote memorization of the >BJCP Style Guidelines in order to pass the exam? Hey Dion! I think your question relates to variability among graders rather than an overall formal expectation that a National (or Master) judge must be able to rattle off stats without the benefit of style guides at hand. I personally don't think that anyone needs to demonstrate "exact" memorization of the guideline statistics to demonstrate superior knowledge. But as a grader, I'm looking for a "close" approximation of the more important statistics (OG, IBUs, and SRM). If an exam-taker can right down statistics that are close to the "real" numbers, then they are demonstrating a depth of knowledge that would translate to a high grade (other parts of the answer being equally high, of course). If you tell me that the OG of an Oktoberfest was 1.048 to 1.060 (guidelines say 1.050 to 1.064), I would probably give you full credit, assuming that the rest of your description of the style was consistent with the style. If you said that the OG of a barley wine was 1.040 to 1.060, then I would probably grade you down for it. For me, it's a matter of degree, and I speak only for myself, and not for any BJCP grading policy. And I suspect that there may be graders out there who will nail you if you said the Oktoberfest was 1.050 to 1.063. But I would like to reward someone who attempts to list the OG, IBU, and SRM and comes close versus someone who tries to play it safe by not listing the stats at all. Again, I see it as a "depth of knowledge" issue. My own pet peeve is that some graders don't seem to recognize the 3-hour limit on the exam, and are seeking an absolutely perfect answer to get a 10. (It often seems that a perfect score gets a 9.) I was personally disappointed that I was graded down on the question about four styles of stouts because I failed to mention the importance of English taxes in driving down the OG of these styles generations ago! If I had 30 minutes per question (instead of roughly 15), I might have gotten around to the taxation part. :-) Cheers Greg Lorton Former Retired Past President Emeritus of QUAFF and still only a National :-) :-) :-) ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************