Subject: Digest for the period 5/4/2003 - 5/5/2003 Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:03:16 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 5/2/2003 - 5/3/2003 (David Perez) 2. Beer vs. Mead... (Bev Blackwood II) 3. finding commercial examples. (Bryan L. Gros) 4. Slow Judging/An IPA Revision/judging (CondrBen`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Perez Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:31:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 5/2/2003 - 5/3/2003 This topic has been an interesting read. I agree with some of what Richard Stueven says: >Mead is not beer. Cider is not beer. I don't have any >interest in judging either of them; does that make me >less of a beer judge? > > But I'm not sure I would go as far as saying it has no place in the BJCP: >My $0.02: if it's not beer, it doesn't belong in the >Style Guide nor on the exam. Otherwise, the BJCP >becomes an orphanage for beverages that nobody >else wants to bother with. > That being said, I like the idea of a Mead/Cider endorsement. It allows for the addition of an identifiable skill set but doesn't require those of us who don't want to spend a great deal of time with a glass of mead to do so. Beer is, after all, the primary beverage we are trained to evaluate. While Lambics may be strange to some people, they are still beer. I believe mead is closer to wine than beer and as such shouldn't be required study. I have and probably will again, evaluated meads, but not in competition. I just have not acquired a taste for them. I doubt I will ever make one. Dave Perez Hogtown "Beer" Brewers (ok, some us make lots of mead) Gainesville, FL ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bev Blackwood II Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:23:01 -0500 Subject: Beer vs. Mead... I think it's significant that a lot (and this is an assumption based on my small knowledge of Grand Masters) of the original GM judges were people who made both beer and mead. So if you were good at one you were also likely good at the other. It was rightly pointed out that BJCP points are BJCP points nowadays... So I favor the "mead endorsement" on your BJCP exam. Prove you can judge and understand mead making before being qualified to judge it. I have judged mead before, but only when in the company of an experienced mead judge AND mead maker. I trusted their guidance in evaluating the mead, adding my own observations to theirs. I wouldn't have a problem checking off an "apprentice" box on Mead scoresheets while checking off "Certified" for my beer judging. -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II http://www.bdb2.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:21:07 -0700 Subject: finding commercial examples. Bev Blackwood brings up a good question: >How does one educate people about a beer that's very difficult to find >a good commercial example of? This was in reference to English Old Ale, but it applies to quite a few styles. The idea of the Style Guidelines is to provide that help for those judges who have not been able to travel much (and I don't think there should be a travel requirement for BJCP). But I have noticed a lot of "snobby" attitudes by some judges who do travel. I have in mind a couple of local brewpub brewers (not sure if they are BJCP or not), but I have seen several judges on many occasions judge a beer against their standard of experience versus the Style Guidelines. For example Me: I thought the character of the malt here, along with the balance of probably English hops, was very nice for an ordinary bitter. Pro 1: Well, there is a whole mineral character lacking here that you get in England. There was a fabulous bitter at the Quail and Finch in Lacashire I had and this beer pales in comparison. Pro 2: Yea, I love that beer. But the one at the Rose and Crown down the street was even better. A great caramel character that this beer just doesn't have OK, a little exagerated, but you get the point. But to get back to the question, it is up to all of us to educate other judges as we can. Whether by aging beers like Bev says, or by bringing back beers when traveling, or by pooling money and purchasing hard to find beers. The other way to read the question, though, is whether Old Peculier and Thomas Hardy's are the same style. That question is open for debate Competition Note: Judges needed to the Bay Area Brew Off, June 14, Pleasanton, CA. See web page below, or email judges`at`draughtboard.org if interested. Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CondrBen`at`aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:53:56 EDT Subject: Slow Judging/An IPA Revision/judging Slow Judging of styles at competitions has been a problem that needs to be discussed. At a recent competition this spring, slow judging not only delayed Best of Show, but the brewery that hosted the event wanted to end its business day and could not at their usual time. Last year, slow judging forced a brewpub to seat overflow lunch customers with judges evaluating due to the tardiness of judges to finish on time. I judged both of these events. The flights were moderate, about ten to collapsed category, some were smaller (total entries per event 200 to 250). As a homebrewer, I want the best evaluation possible but not at the expense of the host brewery/brewpub not inviting us back next year, or to impede on their business. Regarding the IPA category; there needs to be a revision of this BJCP category similar to what was done with barley wines. British versions of the style suffer at the expense of American versions and the interpretation of the style by the judges. Since there are many treatises on American versus British IPA's (Thom Tomlinson, Garrett Oliver, et. al.), this oversight would be easy to remedy. Finally, I have been reading about judges not entering their full names, titles on scoresheets, or lack of experience. This has been a problem for several years now and I recently received a scoresheet from a west coast competition with only a first name and a letter for the last name. Organizers of competitions need to remind judges to completely fill out scoresheets. Also, the organizer should pair at least a certified judge to be the lead in a particular category with novices or experienced judges not in the BJCP. Ben Jankowski Oyster Bay, NY ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 5/4/2003 - 5/5/2003 Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:03:16 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 5/2/2003 - 5/3/2003 (David Perez) 2. Beer vs. Mead... (Bev Blackwood II) 3. finding commercial examples. (Bryan L. Gros) 4. Slow Judging/An IPA Revision/judging (CondrBen`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Perez Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 08:31:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 5/2/2003 - 5/3/2003 This topic has been an interesting read. I agree with some of what Richard Stueven says: >Mead is not beer. Cider is not beer. I don't have any >interest in judging either of them; does that make me >less of a beer judge? > > But I'm not sure I would go as far as saying it has no place in the BJCP: >My $0.02: if it's not beer, it doesn't belong in the >Style Guide nor on the exam. Otherwise, the BJCP >becomes an orphanage for beverages that nobody >else wants to bother with. > That being said, I like the idea of a Mead/Cider endorsement. It allows for the addition of an identifiable skill set but doesn't require those of us who don't want to spend a great deal of time with a glass of mead to do so. Beer is, after all, the primary beverage we are trained to evaluate. While Lambics may be strange to some people, they are still beer. I believe mead is closer to wine than beer and as such shouldn't be required study. I have and probably will again, evaluated meads, but not in competition. I just have not acquired a taste for them. I doubt I will ever make one. Dave Perez Hogtown "Beer" Brewers (ok, some us make lots of mead) Gainesville, FL ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bev Blackwood II Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:23:01 -0500 Subject: Beer vs. Mead... I think it's significant that a lot (and this is an assumption based on my small knowledge of Grand Masters) of the original GM judges were people who made both beer and mead. So if you were good at one you were also likely good at the other. It was rightly pointed out that BJCP points are BJCP points nowadays... So I favor the "mead endorsement" on your BJCP exam. Prove you can judge and understand mead making before being qualified to judge it. I have judged mead before, but only when in the company of an experienced mead judge AND mead maker. I trusted their guidance in evaluating the mead, adding my own observations to theirs. I wouldn't have a problem checking off an "apprentice" box on Mead scoresheets while checking off "Certified" for my beer judging. -BDB2 Bev D. Blackwood II http://www.bdb2.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryan L. Gros Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:21:07 -0700 Subject: finding commercial examples. Bev Blackwood brings up a good question: >How does one educate people about a beer that's very difficult to find >a good commercial example of? This was in reference to English Old Ale, but it applies to quite a few styles. The idea of the Style Guidelines is to provide that help for those judges who have not been able to travel much (and I don't think there should be a travel requirement for BJCP). But I have noticed a lot of "snobby" attitudes by some judges who do travel. I have in mind a couple of local brewpub brewers (not sure if they are BJCP or not), but I have seen several judges on many occasions judge a beer against their standard of experience versus the Style Guidelines. For example Me: I thought the character of the malt here, along with the balance of probably English hops, was very nice for an ordinary bitter. Pro 1: Well, there is a whole mineral character lacking here that you get in England. There was a fabulous bitter at the Quail and Finch in Lacashire I had and this beer pales in comparison. Pro 2: Yea, I love that beer. But the one at the Rose and Crown down the street was even better. A great caramel character that this beer just doesn't have OK, a little exagerated, but you get the point. But to get back to the question, it is up to all of us to educate other judges as we can. Whether by aging beers like Bev says, or by bringing back beers when traveling, or by pooling money and purchasing hard to find beers. The other way to read the question, though, is whether Old Peculier and Thomas Hardy's are the same style. That question is open for debate Competition Note: Judges needed to the Bay Area Brew Off, June 14, Pleasanton, CA. See web page below, or email judges`at`draughtboard.org if interested. Bryan Gros bgros`at`aggienetwork.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.draughtboard.org ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CondrBen`at`aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:53:56 EDT Subject: Slow Judging/An IPA Revision/judging Slow Judging of styles at competitions has been a problem that needs to be discussed. At a recent competition this spring, slow judging not only delayed Best of Show, but the brewery that hosted the event wanted to end its business day and could not at their usual time. Last year, slow judging forced a brewpub to seat overflow lunch customers with judges evaluating due to the tardiness of judges to finish on time. I judged both of these events. The flights were moderate, about ten to collapsed category, some were smaller (total entries per event 200 to 250). As a homebrewer, I want the best evaluation possible but not at the expense of the host brewery/brewpub not inviting us back next year, or to impede on their business. Regarding the IPA category; there needs to be a revision of this BJCP category similar to what was done with barley wines. British versions of the style suffer at the expense of American versions and the interpretation of the style by the judges. Since there are many treatises on American versus British IPA's (Thom Tomlinson, Garrett Oliver, et. al.), this oversight would be easy to remedy. Finally, I have been reading about judges not entering their full names, titles on scoresheets, or lack of experience. This has been a problem for several years now and I recently received a scoresheet from a west coast competition with only a first name and a letter for the last name. Organizers of competitions need to remind judges to completely fill out scoresheets. Also, the organizer should pair at least a certified judge to be the lead in a particular category with novices or experienced judges not in the BJCP. Ben Jankowski Oyster Bay, NY ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************