Subject: Digest for the period 4/28/2003 - 4/29/2003 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:04:27 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 4/27/2003 - 4/28/2003 (Lyle C Brown) 2. Re: Mead Exam? What about cider? (Todd M. Snyder) 3. Re: Mead exam? (Bob Paolino) 4. 2003 South Shore Brewoff - Results (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI) 5. Re: Mead exam? (Bob Sheck) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 05:32:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/27/2003 - 4/28/2003 On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 01:02:04 -0400 "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" writes: > Subject: Mead exam? > While I am against the idea of style-specific > beer > exams, I think the mead exam idea has some merit. > Then on what basis do you single out mead? What about Cider? Then if you have a cider exam and a mead exam, which one covers Cyser (probably mead, but arguably both)? What about Sake? I think a better solution would be to add mead and cider to the current exam. The idea that a judge "could" pass an exam only about mead, then go on to judge stouts versus porters is a little odd, but your suggestion won't stop this. To be fair, the same can be said about today's judges who pass an exam about beer and judge mead and cider. Perhaps a "sub-test" is a better answer. I'm talking about a shorter test for mead, which is taken optionally, during or even after taking the beer test. Mead, sake and cider would become added specialties for judges who are interested. Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd M. Snyder Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:06:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Mead Exam? What about cider? How about including cider with mead in the new exam? These two styles are usually combined for judging, either in a collapsed category or in its own Mead/Cider BOS, and the same lack of qualified judges for meads also applies to cider at competitions. >While judging at the Mazer Cup competition this year, another judge asked >about a BJCP exam for mead. The current BJCP exam just focuses on beer (and >doesn't touch on fruit, spice, herb, specialty, etc styles). Todd Snyder Buffalo, NY ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Paolino Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:04:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Mead exam? Gordon wrote: > doesn't touch on fruit, spice, herb, specialty, etc styles). For those who > only make and judge meads (probably a small group), the beer judge exam > doesn't really fit. While I am against the idea of style-specific beer > exams, I think the mead exam idea has some merit. > > I've thought about it a bit, and think the current beer exam format could be > used for meads. I don't see creating a separate program or way of tracking > the people who pass it. I think I'd treat it as an alternate exam and track > experience points in the same way as is currently done. It would be up to > the individual judges to only judge those categories they're competent to > judge (as it is today). One side effect is that any current beer judge > could take the mead exam and have the best written/tasting scores counted > for advancement purposes. I don't think this is something for the BJCP to do, or if it does, it should be to provide an optional mead certification either for mead-only judges or beer judges who desire the additional certification. A mead-only exam should not be used to grant beer judging credentials. It's not enough to say that "It would be up to the individual judges to only judge those categories they're competent to judge (as it is today)." Although I have some appreciation for meads, I do not judge them unless the organiser is really desperate ;-) and the other judge is well-qualified in judging meads and I would be able to learn something from the experience. But meads are only a tiny subset of a typical competition. It does not follow that someone certified in only that narrow subset (but probably a judge very much welcomed by an organiser to do that part of the competition), should be able to present him/herself as a "BJCP [insert rank here] beer judge" in all the non-mead categories (even if also competent in beer) on the basis of having qualified by taking a mead exam. Beer is still the major focus of most competitions and of the BJCP. It makes no sense to allow someone to advance in a beer program on the basis of getting a higher score on the mead exam than on the beer exam. I have no problem with mead judges being awarded experience points for judging mead in BJCP-registered competition as under the current rules, whether if at the competition for half the day judging only the meads or judging all day and also taking a beer category. But the value of experience points is capped by the exam score. It would be ridiculous for someone very accomplished in mead but who thinks BudMillCoorsRedLiteDryIceDog is good beer (and not just "good for the style" ;-) ) to become a Master Beer Judge on the basis of a great mead score, after failing to pass the beer exam. (I suspect that there aren't many BudMillCoors-swilling mead enthusiasts out there, but it illustrates the concept, even if an extreme example.) Recognising mead makers/judges for their expertise is a great idea if there are people willing and able to develop and exam, but let's make it either a separate part of the program or as an optional certification added on to someone's existing beer judge credentials. Perhaps the latter could be a numerical ranking based on exam score, such as 1=qualified, 2=well-qualified, 3=exceptionally well qualified. Then someone could be a Recognised (or any other rank) Beer Judge with Mead 3 certification, with the mead rank completely independent of the beer rank. Just my 37 cents' worth.... Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino "Something like this makes you think, 'Oh yeah. This _IS_ rocket science.' " --Kristen Fortson, NASA payload specialist ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X against HTML e-mail: / \ Friends don't send friends HTML-bloated messages! ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:18:31 -0400 Subject: 2003 South Shore Brewoff - Results All, The results of the 2003 South Shore Brewoff are now posted on our club webpage at: http://members.aol.com/brewclub I'd like to publicly thank everyone involved in making this year's Brewoff a success, including Rock Bottom Brewery (Braintree, MA), all the judges and stewards, all of our sponsors, and all of the entrants. All score sheets and prizes will be mailed by the end of this week. Geoffrey McNally 2003 SSBO Organizer ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Sheck Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:07:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Mead exam? I would think that a 'mead endorsement' would be a fine adjunct to the BJCP program. I'm fortunate to be able to schedule 2, maybe 3 comps a year (as it turns out over the last several years) and I notice that some judges tend to gravitate toward sitting certain styles: I try and sit the darker/stronger styles, as I believe I can best describe these, they're what I generally brew and just feel more familiar with them as opposed to the lighter lagers and to some degree lighter ales. Perhaps (at the risk of further complicating things) style endorsements would be a good idea for all categories? I also try and sit the mead flights, I enjoy mead and I seem to have built up a local reputation as having some competency in this style. So it would follow that if we have to focus on any discrete style, then perhaps we should do the same for all- beyond the generalized 'competency' test we presently take. I would have prefered to email Gordon directly, but the digest seems to chop individual email address. Still, this may be of interest to everyone. Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC bobsheck`at`earthlink.net >From: Gordon Strong Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:33:46 -0400 >Subject: Mead exam? > > >While judging at the Mazer Cup competition this year, another judge asked >about a BJCP exam for mead. The current BJCP exam just focuses on beer ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 4/28/2003 - 4/29/2003 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:04:27 -0400 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Digest for the period 4/27/2003 - 4/28/2003 (Lyle C Brown) 2. Re: Mead Exam? What about cider? (Todd M. Snyder) 3. Re: Mead exam? (Bob Paolino) 4. 2003 South Shore Brewoff - Results (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI) 5. Re: Mead exam? (Bob Sheck) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 05:32:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/27/2003 - 4/28/2003 On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 01:02:04 -0400 "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" writes: > Subject: Mead exam? > While I am against the idea of style-specific > beer > exams, I think the mead exam idea has some merit. > Then on what basis do you single out mead? What about Cider? Then if you have a cider exam and a mead exam, which one covers Cyser (probably mead, but arguably both)? What about Sake? I think a better solution would be to add mead and cider to the current exam. The idea that a judge "could" pass an exam only about mead, then go on to judge stouts versus porters is a little odd, but your suggestion won't stop this. To be fair, the same can be said about today's judges who pass an exam about beer and judge mead and cider. Perhaps a "sub-test" is a better answer. I'm talking about a shorter test for mead, which is taken optionally, during or even after taking the beer test. Mead, sake and cider would become added specialties for judges who are interested. Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd M. Snyder Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:06:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Mead Exam? What about cider? How about including cider with mead in the new exam? These two styles are usually combined for judging, either in a collapsed category or in its own Mead/Cider BOS, and the same lack of qualified judges for meads also applies to cider at competitions. >While judging at the Mazer Cup competition this year, another judge asked >about a BJCP exam for mead. The current BJCP exam just focuses on beer (and >doesn't touch on fruit, spice, herb, specialty, etc styles). Todd Snyder Buffalo, NY ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Paolino Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:04:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Mead exam? Gordon wrote: > doesn't touch on fruit, spice, herb, specialty, etc styles). For those who > only make and judge meads (probably a small group), the beer judge exam > doesn't really fit. While I am against the idea of style-specific beer > exams, I think the mead exam idea has some merit. > > I've thought about it a bit, and think the current beer exam format could be > used for meads. I don't see creating a separate program or way of tracking > the people who pass it. I think I'd treat it as an alternate exam and track > experience points in the same way as is currently done. It would be up to > the individual judges to only judge those categories they're competent to > judge (as it is today). One side effect is that any current beer judge > could take the mead exam and have the best written/tasting scores counted > for advancement purposes. I don't think this is something for the BJCP to do, or if it does, it should be to provide an optional mead certification either for mead-only judges or beer judges who desire the additional certification. A mead-only exam should not be used to grant beer judging credentials. It's not enough to say that "It would be up to the individual judges to only judge those categories they're competent to judge (as it is today)." Although I have some appreciation for meads, I do not judge them unless the organiser is really desperate ;-) and the other judge is well-qualified in judging meads and I would be able to learn something from the experience. But meads are only a tiny subset of a typical competition. It does not follow that someone certified in only that narrow subset (but probably a judge very much welcomed by an organiser to do that part of the competition), should be able to present him/herself as a "BJCP [insert rank here] beer judge" in all the non-mead categories (even if also competent in beer) on the basis of having qualified by taking a mead exam. Beer is still the major focus of most competitions and of the BJCP. It makes no sense to allow someone to advance in a beer program on the basis of getting a higher score on the mead exam than on the beer exam. I have no problem with mead judges being awarded experience points for judging mead in BJCP-registered competition as under the current rules, whether if at the competition for half the day judging only the meads or judging all day and also taking a beer category. But the value of experience points is capped by the exam score. It would be ridiculous for someone very accomplished in mead but who thinks BudMillCoorsRedLiteDryIceDog is good beer (and not just "good for the style" ;-) ) to become a Master Beer Judge on the basis of a great mead score, after failing to pass the beer exam. (I suspect that there aren't many BudMillCoors-swilling mead enthusiasts out there, but it illustrates the concept, even if an extreme example.) Recognising mead makers/judges for their expertise is a great idea if there are people willing and able to develop and exam, but let's make it either a separate part of the program or as an optional certification added on to someone's existing beer judge credentials. Perhaps the latter could be a numerical ranking based on exam score, such as 1=qualified, 2=well-qualified, 3=exceptionally well qualified. Then someone could be a Recognised (or any other rank) Beer Judge with Mead 3 certification, with the mead rank completely independent of the beer rank. Just my 37 cents' worth.... Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino "Something like this makes you think, 'Oh yeah. This _IS_ rocket science.' " --Kristen Fortson, NASA payload specialist ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X against HTML e-mail: / \ Friends don't send friends HTML-bloated messages! ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:18:31 -0400 Subject: 2003 South Shore Brewoff - Results All, The results of the 2003 South Shore Brewoff are now posted on our club webpage at: http://members.aol.com/brewclub I'd like to publicly thank everyone involved in making this year's Brewoff a success, including Rock Bottom Brewery (Braintree, MA), all the judges and stewards, all of our sponsors, and all of the entrants. All score sheets and prizes will be mailed by the end of this week. Geoffrey McNally 2003 SSBO Organizer ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Sheck Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:07:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Mead exam? I would think that a 'mead endorsement' would be a fine adjunct to the BJCP program. I'm fortunate to be able to schedule 2, maybe 3 comps a year (as it turns out over the last several years) and I notice that some judges tend to gravitate toward sitting certain styles: I try and sit the darker/stronger styles, as I believe I can best describe these, they're what I generally brew and just feel more familiar with them as opposed to the lighter lagers and to some degree lighter ales. Perhaps (at the risk of further complicating things) style endorsements would be a good idea for all categories? I also try and sit the mead flights, I enjoy mead and I seem to have built up a local reputation as having some competency in this style. So it would follow that if we have to focus on any discrete style, then perhaps we should do the same for all- beyond the generalized 'competency' test we presently take. I would have prefered to email Gordon directly, but the digest seems to chop individual email address. Still, this may be of interest to everyone. Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC bobsheck`at`earthlink.net >From: Gordon Strong Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:33:46 -0400 >Subject: Mead exam? > > >While judging at the Mazer Cup competition this year, another judge asked >about a BJCP exam for mead. The current BJCP exam just focuses on beer ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************