Subject: Digest for the period 12/29/2002 - 12/30/2002 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Fruit & SHV Info (Mike Dixon) 2. HSV, base style or not? (Lyle C Brown) 3. SHV category, what is REALLY written (Lyle C Brown) 4. Re: Digest for the period 12/22/2002 - 12/23/2002 (Lyle C Brown) 5. Exam Director (Bill Slack) 6. BJCP style guideline volunteers (Bill Slack) 7. Re: Tha National Sake Homebrew Comp (OudBruin`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:29:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Fruit & SHV Info David Perez querried.... > Mike, I believe you are correct that people deserve something for their > money, but they have to accept some responsibility for the results they > receive. If I forget to send in my check, should my beer be judged? If I am the organizer, Yes... If > so could it metal? If I am the organizer, Yes, it could win a ribbon/medal, BUT it could not receive that ribbon or any paperwork untill the competition receives payment for the entry. Had this happen, holding information hostage works as a great motivational tool... >How about if I don't provide a complete and accurate > mailing address, should I receive my score sheets back at all? I haven't ran into that one, but we ALWAYS require a phone and an e-mail address. Usually those issues can be take care of by e-mail, or a phone call. If they couldn't, I'd just hold the results until the information could be provided. >Should > these type of omissions disqualify a beer? I think yes. I say NO, at least not in a competition I am going to have a part in organizing. Now with my postition in mind, you and anyone else can run a competition by whatever set of rules you desire to impose. If the rules state a beer must be delivered only in brown bottles with gold caps, then those are the rules, and you can certainly choose to disqualify entries based upon that. For instance, if brown bottles is the rule and anything else is received, say a clear bottle, I would contact the brewer and return the entry money. My key point of my statement being, the brewer either gets scoresheets, or their money back in every case.... Cheers, Mike ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:34:56 -0500 Subject: HSV, base style or not? As Nathan has pointed out, there basically is NO accepted commercial example of this category. Oh, sure, there are a few out there, but what is the commonality between them? The only real commonality is the HSV, NOT the "base style." What is the "base style" of Sam Adams Cherry Wheat? It certainly is not Bavarian Weizen, or Berliner Weisse. Compare it to the Saranac Wild Mountain Berry, and the Red Hook Apricot. I think you can see the wide range here. If we accept the premise that ALL these HSV beers have a "base style," whether identified or not, it would be from the premise that the brewer had to start with a given beer, from which he deviated. Following that logic, we know that historically most (all) ales, including Stouts, are derived from the medieval murky brown ale, which is all that was available back then. Since this is the case, one must base judging on the given beer's expression of the brown ale base style. This includes Dry Stouts, and SNPA! We could make the same analogy with pilsners originating from Dunkels. A little closer to our time, it is known that stouts historically originated as a modification of the robust porter (ie, stout porter). If this is true, why don't we also judge stouts in how well they "express" the porter style? I submit that the above examples are little different from what is being expected of the HSV beers. If someone wants to enter a "blueberry APA," then judge it as such. But if they brew it as a straight "blueberry ale" (or even just "blueberry beer"), we should be able to judge it as such! Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:50:01 -0500 Subject: SHV category, what is REALLY written On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:02:31 -0500 Nathaniel P. Lansing wrote: > I see part of the trouble is the guidelines weren't read or > understood, I will quote them so everyone can see. > "Overall balance is the key to presenting a well-made spice, > herb or vegetable (SHV) beer. The SHV should complement > the original style and not overwhelm it. ~.....~The entrant must > specify the underlying beer style as well as the type of SHV(s) > used. > _If_ (emphasis mine) the base beer is a classic style,the original > style should come through in aroma and flavor. " > > So, balance is in fact the key issue as presented > by the guideline committee. Secondly the guidelines > _do_leave it open that not all SHV beers will be based > on a classic style. With all due respect, Nathan, I agree with most of your points, but think you have misread the above. Note that before stating "IF the base beer is a classic style..." the guidelines first state "The SHV should complement the ORIGINAL STYLE and not overwhelm it." (Emphasis added) While seeming to "allow" beer without a classic style, the earlier sentence seems to require it. Otherwise, what is the "original" style? Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:54:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 12/22/2002 - 12/23/2002 > From: David Perez Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:04:07 -0500 > Subject: Just One More Thing > > > One more interesting data point from the new AOB style guide. > > Association of Brewers > 2003 Beer Style Guidelines > December 9, 2002 > page 35... > Here we go again!!! While the AHA and BJCP seemed to have finally agreed on a common (mostly so) set of style guidelines a little while back, it seems the AHA is once again out to pave their own way. I am not aware of any AHA version of the BJCP, so are they asking BJCP judges to ignore the guidelines they have studied for and tested against? Is the AHA trying to start its own judging program? (Again!) I respectfully submit that this is a BJCP forum, and the AHA guidelines are irrelevant (even if I do agree with the quoted passage. Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Slack Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:13:10 -0500 Subject: Exam Director On the first of January Dan Hall will relinquish the position of Eastern Exam Director and will be replaced by Scott Bickham who has previously run the exam grading program. I can't say enough about Dan and the years of hard and exacting service he has given the BJCP in our exam grading activities, as a grader, a lead grader, an associate director and more recently as Eastern Exam Director. Grading exams is the most difficult and least fun job in the Program and the people who do it are much to be admired. Dan's increasing responsibility in this area meant that he has had to take responsibility for the quality grading of all the exams under his jurisdiction and he has performed this task with diligence and professionalism. We are very much in his debt. And how will he spend all his newfound free time? He intends to do more judging. Good on you, Dan. Bill Slack President and Representative for the Northeast Region Board of Directors Beer Judge Certification Program, Inc. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Slack Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:24:30 -0500 Subject: BJCP style guideline volunteers Scott Birdwell, the BJCP Competition Director, needs volunteers to assist in some updates to the BJCP Style Guidelines. Contact Scott at sales`at`defalcos.com if you are interested in helping in this work. Tell him enough about you so that he can make a reasonable selection from those who volunteer. Thanks. Bill Slack Presesident and Representative for thre Northeast Region Board of Directors Beer Judge Certification Perogram, Inc. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:07:08 EST Subject: Re: Tha National Sake Homebrew Comp In a message dated 12/29/02 12:04:46 PM, OudBruin writes: >Attached is an important message I have sent to the readers of the "Sake >Digest" >----------------- >Forwarded Message: > >Subj: Re: Tha National Sake Homebrew Comp >Date: Sunday, December 29, 2002 11:47:35 AM >From: OudBruin >To: sake`at`hbd.org, owner-sake at hbd.org > >Because of poor turnout from last years competition, our sponsor is having >problem with committal of the funds involved to making this event a reality. >If you are brewing a batch of homebrew sake at this time, or if you are >contemplating on making an entry in the homebrew competition this spring, >I NEED YOU TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE SAKE HOMEBREW COMMUNITY. >PLEASE SEND ME (OUDBRUIN`at`AOL.COM) A REPLY MESSAGE INDICATING IF YOU ARE > >(A) BREWING A BATCH OF SAKE AT THIS TIME >(B) HAVE BREWED SOME SAKE >AND (C) WOULD LIKE TO PUT AN ENTRY IN THE HOMEBREW COMPETITION. >PLEASE INCLUDE "THE NATIONAL SAKE HOMEBREW COMP" IN THE SUBJECT LINE-OTHERWISE >YOUR E-MAIL WILL GET ERASED >Folks, it's crunch time, 4th down and 40 yards to go- >If we don't all pull together, there will be no national homebrew comp. >We cannot expect a sake maker to spend several thousand dollars for room >rental and associated costs and only see 6 or 7 entries. >YOUR HELP AND PARTICIPATION IS NEEDED. >Thanks, >Bruce Hammell ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** Subject: Digest for the period 12/29/2002 - 12/30/2002 Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Re: Fruit & SHV Info (Mike Dixon) 2. HSV, base style or not? (Lyle C Brown) 3. SHV category, what is REALLY written (Lyle C Brown) 4. Re: Digest for the period 12/22/2002 - 12/23/2002 (Lyle C Brown) 5. Exam Director (Bill Slack) 6. BJCP style guideline volunteers (Bill Slack) 7. Re: Tha National Sake Homebrew Comp (OudBruin`at`aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Dixon Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:29:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Fruit & SHV Info David Perez querried.... > Mike, I believe you are correct that people deserve something for their > money, but they have to accept some responsibility for the results they > receive. If I forget to send in my check, should my beer be judged? If I am the organizer, Yes... If > so could it metal? If I am the organizer, Yes, it could win a ribbon/medal, BUT it could not receive that ribbon or any paperwork untill the competition receives payment for the entry. Had this happen, holding information hostage works as a great motivational tool... >How about if I don't provide a complete and accurate > mailing address, should I receive my score sheets back at all? I haven't ran into that one, but we ALWAYS require a phone and an e-mail address. Usually those issues can be take care of by e-mail, or a phone call. If they couldn't, I'd just hold the results until the information could be provided. >Should > these type of omissions disqualify a beer? I think yes. I say NO, at least not in a competition I am going to have a part in organizing. Now with my postition in mind, you and anyone else can run a competition by whatever set of rules you desire to impose. If the rules state a beer must be delivered only in brown bottles with gold caps, then those are the rules, and you can certainly choose to disqualify entries based upon that. For instance, if brown bottles is the rule and anything else is received, say a clear bottle, I would contact the brewer and return the entry money. My key point of my statement being, the brewer either gets scoresheets, or their money back in every case.... Cheers, Mike ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:34:56 -0500 Subject: HSV, base style or not? As Nathan has pointed out, there basically is NO accepted commercial example of this category. Oh, sure, there are a few out there, but what is the commonality between them? The only real commonality is the HSV, NOT the "base style." What is the "base style" of Sam Adams Cherry Wheat? It certainly is not Bavarian Weizen, or Berliner Weisse. Compare it to the Saranac Wild Mountain Berry, and the Red Hook Apricot. I think you can see the wide range here. If we accept the premise that ALL these HSV beers have a "base style," whether identified or not, it would be from the premise that the brewer had to start with a given beer, from which he deviated. Following that logic, we know that historically most (all) ales, including Stouts, are derived from the medieval murky brown ale, which is all that was available back then. Since this is the case, one must base judging on the given beer's expression of the brown ale base style. This includes Dry Stouts, and SNPA! We could make the same analogy with pilsners originating from Dunkels. A little closer to our time, it is known that stouts historically originated as a modification of the robust porter (ie, stout porter). If this is true, why don't we also judge stouts in how well they "express" the porter style? I submit that the above examples are little different from what is being expected of the HSV beers. If someone wants to enter a "blueberry APA," then judge it as such. But if they brew it as a straight "blueberry ale" (or even just "blueberry beer"), we should be able to judge it as such! Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:50:01 -0500 Subject: SHV category, what is REALLY written On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:02:31 -0500 Nathaniel P. Lansing wrote: > I see part of the trouble is the guidelines weren't read or > understood, I will quote them so everyone can see. > "Overall balance is the key to presenting a well-made spice, > herb or vegetable (SHV) beer. The SHV should complement > the original style and not overwhelm it. ~.....~The entrant must > specify the underlying beer style as well as the type of SHV(s) > used. > _If_ (emphasis mine) the base beer is a classic style,the original > style should come through in aroma and flavor. " > > So, balance is in fact the key issue as presented > by the guideline committee. Secondly the guidelines > _do_leave it open that not all SHV beers will be based > on a classic style. With all due respect, Nathan, I agree with most of your points, but think you have misread the above. Note that before stating "IF the base beer is a classic style..." the guidelines first state "The SHV should complement the ORIGINAL STYLE and not overwhelm it." (Emphasis added) While seeming to "allow" beer without a classic style, the earlier sentence seems to require it. Otherwise, what is the "original" style? Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lyle C Brown Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:54:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 12/22/2002 - 12/23/2002 > From: David Perez Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:04:07 -0500 > Subject: Just One More Thing > > > One more interesting data point from the new AOB style guide. > > Association of Brewers > 2003 Beer Style Guidelines > December 9, 2002 > page 35... > Here we go again!!! While the AHA and BJCP seemed to have finally agreed on a common (mostly so) set of style guidelines a little while back, it seems the AHA is once again out to pave their own way. I am not aware of any AHA version of the BJCP, so are they asking BJCP judges to ignore the guidelines they have studied for and tested against? Is the AHA trying to start its own judging program? (Again!) I respectfully submit that this is a BJCP forum, and the AHA guidelines are irrelevant (even if I do agree with the quoted passage. Lyle C. Brown ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Slack Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:13:10 -0500 Subject: Exam Director On the first of January Dan Hall will relinquish the position of Eastern Exam Director and will be replaced by Scott Bickham who has previously run the exam grading program. I can't say enough about Dan and the years of hard and exacting service he has given the BJCP in our exam grading activities, as a grader, a lead grader, an associate director and more recently as Eastern Exam Director. Grading exams is the most difficult and least fun job in the Program and the people who do it are much to be admired. Dan's increasing responsibility in this area meant that he has had to take responsibility for the quality grading of all the exams under his jurisdiction and he has performed this task with diligence and professionalism. We are very much in his debt. And how will he spend all his newfound free time? He intends to do more judging. Good on you, Dan. Bill Slack President and Representative for the Northeast Region Board of Directors Beer Judge Certification Program, Inc. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Slack Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:24:30 -0500 Subject: BJCP style guideline volunteers Scott Birdwell, the BJCP Competition Director, needs volunteers to assist in some updates to the BJCP Style Guidelines. Contact Scott at sales`at`defalcos.com if you are interested in helping in this work. Tell him enough about you so that he can make a reasonable selection from those who volunteer. Thanks. Bill Slack Presesident and Representative for thre Northeast Region Board of Directors Beer Judge Certification Perogram, Inc. ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:07:08 EST Subject: Re: Tha National Sake Homebrew Comp In a message dated 12/29/02 12:04:46 PM, OudBruin writes: >Attached is an important message I have sent to the readers of the "Sake >Digest" >----------------- >Forwarded Message: > >Subj: Re: Tha National Sake Homebrew Comp >Date: Sunday, December 29, 2002 11:47:35 AM >From: OudBruin >To: sake`at`hbd.org, owner-sake at hbd.org > >Because of poor turnout from last years competition, our sponsor is having >problem with committal of the funds involved to making this event a reality. >If you are brewing a batch of homebrew sake at this time, or if you are >contemplating on making an entry in the homebrew competition this spring, >I NEED YOU TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE SAKE HOMEBREW COMMUNITY. >PLEASE SEND ME (OUDBRUIN`at`AOL.COM) A REPLY MESSAGE INDICATING IF YOU ARE > >(A) BREWING A BATCH OF SAKE AT THIS TIME >(B) HAVE BREWED SOME SAKE >AND (C) WOULD LIKE TO PUT AN ENTRY IN THE HOMEBREW COMPETITION. >PLEASE INCLUDE "THE NATIONAL SAKE HOMEBREW COMP" IN THE SUBJECT LINE-OTHERWISE >YOUR E-MAIL WILL GET ERASED >Folks, it's crunch time, 4th down and 40 yards to go- >If we don't all pull together, there will be no national homebrew comp. >We cannot expect a sake maker to spend several thousand dollars for room >rental and associated costs and only see 6 or 7 entries. >YOUR HELP AND PARTICIPATION IS NEEDED. >Thanks, >Bruce Hammell ********************************************************************** * JudgeNet - the beer judge digest * * Send plain text only, no HTML, MIME, encoded text or attachments * * Send subscription requests & changes to judge-request`at`synchro.com * **********************************************************************