Subject: Digest for the period 4/26/02 - 4/27/02 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:04:43 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C" --Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- re:preferences (Nathaniel P. Lansing) --Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC6953463A3C" --Message_Part_SYNC6953463A3C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from siaag2aa.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.131]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC6936463014 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:19:01 -0400 Received: (from mailgate`at`localhost) by siaag2aa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id IAA28982 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:18:46 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Subject: re:preferences Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: <200204260818_MC3-FB7B-D3C9`at`compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Bill Wible mentioned his CAP getting bashed, take heart, you aren't the only one. I had one go on to Club Only finals and got comments like: hint of corn, slight DMS, mild graininess, balanced hop bitterness, mild diacetyl, nice hop aroma.....lacks complexity! excuse me? this is a lager! it's not s'posed to be complex and didn't you just mention a whole list of nuances? This is not a Imperial Stout that should have oxidation character + winyness + maybe licorice + many other intangibles. Just think about what you are writing please. I just was reading an old Brewing Techniques that mentioned how tastes and perceptions are influenced by media. It talked about a test performed where an odor was introduced into a room and a group of test subjects were put into the room; 1/3 of the subjects were told this is an unhealthy odor, 1/3 were told it was healthy, 1/3 were told nothing. The 1/3 that were told it was unhealthy said the smell got stronger in time, the 'told it was healthy' 1/3 thought the odor diminished in time, the last 1/3 said it got stronger but at a slower rate than the 1/3 that were told it was unhealthy. This made so much sense to me and I see it all the time in judging. The anti-diacetyl, anti-DMS sentiments go so far as to make experienced judges fixate on those particular flavors and forget the overall balance. I see it just about how the article put it; one sip and there's "a hint of DMS", another sip and "yep! that's DMS", another sip and that's "too much DMS." Because of the judge has been "trained" diacetyl and DMS are *absolutely* negative flavors. Everything in its' place, A British ale without diacetyl is flat, a British ale with DMS is pukey. That is probably one reason British malts = developed through time to be fully modified to reduce DMS. They certainly wouldn't have developed a lazy one-step-infusion system if that produced inferior beer. We should also remember that preferences are inherent in the system and when we go to write a comment decide if it is a defect or like/dislike. I prefer Salvator over Celebrator, I would not say it is out-of-style because of too much hop bitterness. These are two good examples of the style but I have brewed a perfect knock-off of Salvator to have it bashed as "too hoppy". Now, how can we come up with a way to counter this variation in style parameters? Maybe a list of recommended beers to be contrasted/compared. Those 2 I mentioned, Celebrator and Salvator for the Doppelbocks; maybe Pilsner Urquell and Czechvar as Czech pils to contrast DMS levels. I'm sure that a committee could come up with recommended pairs for diacetyl and etc. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a committee! If someone has some recommendations they post here I'd certainly use it in the judge training sessions we have in our club. Specifically when is an APA really an IPA? there are enough examples that are available to get some serious improvement in the understanding in the range of specific styles. "A man's got to know his limitations" N.P. Lansing --Message_Part_SYNC6953463A3C-- --Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C-- Subject: Digest for the period 4/26/02 - 4/27/02 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:04:43 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C" --Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- re:preferences (Nathaniel P. Lansing) --Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC6953463A3C" --Message_Part_SYNC6953463A3C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from siaag2aa.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.131]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC6936463014 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:19:01 -0400 Received: (from mailgate`at`localhost) by siaag2aa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id IAA28982 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:18:46 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Subject: re:preferences Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: <200204260818_MC3-FB7B-D3C9`at`compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Bill Wible mentioned his CAP getting bashed, take heart, you aren't the only one. I had one go on to Club Only finals and got comments like: hint of corn, slight DMS, mild graininess, balanced hop bitterness, mild diacetyl, nice hop aroma.....lacks complexity! excuse me? this is a lager! it's not s'posed to be complex and didn't you just mention a whole list of nuances? This is not a Imperial Stout that should have oxidation character + winyness + maybe licorice + many other intangibles. Just think about what you are writing please. I just was reading an old Brewing Techniques that mentioned how tastes and perceptions are influenced by media. It talked about a test performed where an odor was introduced into a room and a group of test subjects were put into the room; 1/3 of the subjects were told this is an unhealthy odor, 1/3 were told it was healthy, 1/3 were told nothing. The 1/3 that were told it was unhealthy said the smell got stronger in time, the 'told it was healthy' 1/3 thought the odor diminished in time, the last 1/3 said it got stronger but at a slower rate than the 1/3 that were told it was unhealthy. This made so much sense to me and I see it all the time in judging. The anti-diacetyl, anti-DMS sentiments go so far as to make experienced judges fixate on those particular flavors and forget the overall balance. I see it just about how the article put it; one sip and there's "a hint of DMS", another sip and "yep! that's DMS", another sip and that's "too much DMS." Because of the judge has been "trained" diacetyl and DMS are *absolutely* negative flavors. Everything in its' place, A British ale without diacetyl is flat, a British ale with DMS is pukey. That is probably one reason British malts = developed through time to be fully modified to reduce DMS. They certainly wouldn't have developed a lazy one-step-infusion system if that produced inferior beer. We should also remember that preferences are inherent in the system and when we go to write a comment decide if it is a defect or like/dislike. I prefer Salvator over Celebrator, I would not say it is out-of-style because of too much hop bitterness. These are two good examples of the style but I have brewed a perfect knock-off of Salvator to have it bashed as "too hoppy". Now, how can we come up with a way to counter this variation in style parameters? Maybe a list of recommended beers to be contrasted/compared. Those 2 I mentioned, Celebrator and Salvator for the Doppelbocks; maybe Pilsner Urquell and Czechvar as Czech pils to contrast DMS levels. I'm sure that a committee could come up with recommended pairs for diacetyl and etc. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a committee! If someone has some recommendations they post here I'd certainly use it in the judge training sessions we have in our club. Specifically when is an APA really an IPA? there are enough examples that are available to get some serious improvement in the understanding in the range of specific styles. "A man's got to know his limitations" N.P. Lansing --Message_Part_SYNC6953463A3C-- --Next_Part_SYNC6953463A3C--