Subject: Digest for the period 4/12/02 - 4/13/02 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 01:03:07 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9" --Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quality Judging (Peter Garofalo) RE: Evaluation notes (Houseman, David L) Re: Digest for the period 4/11/02 - 4/12/02 (Randy Paul) Re: Evaluation notes (Bill Wible) Need color card (Dion Hollenbeck) --Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9" --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailout5.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.122]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66004596A6 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:23:29 -0400 Received: from peter (syr-24-92-233-115.twcny.rr.com [24.92.233.115]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/Road Runner 1.12) with SMTP id g3CCNAM16060 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301c1e21c$938ae6c0$73e95c18`at`peter> From: "Peter Garofalo" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Quality Judging Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:21:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In today's Judgenet, Patrick Twohy writes-- >But if my recent experience is any guide, my approach >is not the norm. Evaluation forms I just got back from >one competition included some that had little more than >one word in each section. One evaluation, for example, >included exactly nine words total on the form for what >the judge felt was a middling sample of beer. The >complete comment under Overall Impression >was, "Needs work." Patrick, many have suffered similar fates, myself included. In fact, the poor feedback that I received in competitions in the early 90s was a main motivating factor in my joining the judging ranks. The way I look at it, there are two alternatives: stop entering competitions, or try to work from the grassroots to improve judging, starting with your own. It sounds like you are (or try to be) the sort of judge you'd like to see judging your own beers. Keep up the good work, and encourage others to do similar quality work. You can rest assured that the judge in question would have heard about it in great detail had he or she done such a poor job judging on the BJCP exam. Over the past years we've greatly expanded the feedback that examinees get, and increased and improved the grader pool. This is where many judges get their start, and I take it as a serious commitment to improving the program. Many agree with me, and work hard at the largely unnoticed job of grading and reviewing exams. We all should take it upon ourselves to do a complete and thorough job whenever we judge, of course. I've actually been criticized for writing an "essay" on a scoresheet, from a judge who's famous for a five-word appraisal. I simply replied that he might feel differently if it were his beer being judged. Well, that's enough ranting. Bottom line: Patrick, you are not alone, and you seem to be on the right track. Now it's time to drive to Cleveland and judge some beer! Cheers, Peter Garofalo BJCP Western Exam Director Syracuse, NY (yeah, that's right...) --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from bbmail1-out.unisys.com ([192.63.108.40]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66014596FD for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:37 -0400 Received: from us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com (us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com [192.63.78.151]) by bbmail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28464 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:13:24 GMT Received: by us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <2RTDFW73>; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:19 -0400 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF98390526`at`USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: Evaluation notes Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Patrick, Yes, Patrick, you have it right. Those sketchy judging forms you received were not acceptable. That sort of work will never be rewarded by advancement to the higher ranks in the BJCP. Those judges may have received much better scores on the essay portion of the BJCP exam than the tasting portion ;-) Keep up the good work yourself and continue to provide guidance to the new judges by your example. You are right on target with your approach to beer evaluation. Dave Houseman --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from shell.cais.net ([205.252.14.8]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66034597F1 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:43:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (randy`at`localhost) by shell.cais.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3CFh9r56898 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from randy`at`computer.org) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.cais.net: randy owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Randy Paul Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-Sender: randy`at`shell.cais.net To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/11/02 - 4/12/02 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Patrick Twohy writes: > is not the norm. Evaluation forms I just got back from > one competition included some that had little more than > one word in each section. One evaluation, for example, > included exactly nine words total on the form for ... Agree that this is insufficient, but you need to tell us if it was a BJCP judge or a trainee. Did you send a copy of the sheet to the organizer and recommend he tells the judge to do better or not to return? I've seen certified judges turn in sparse sheets late in the day when I know they've judged strong beers and may not be "at the top of their game." Some have even gone on to do BOS. The organizers are too busy to monitor this, judges must monitor themselves and be confronted with their poor scoresheets if the shoe fits. We don't decertify judges based on the quality of the work (AFAIK) so it seems the organizers sorta do this by putting the worst judges into the least desireable assignments, if any at all. You can subtly apply peer pressure within a table if you spot it happening: seems to work about 1/2 the time with the remainder split between ignored and resented. cheers -- Randy --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from diskless7.axs2000.net ([209.120.196.45]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66054598A9 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:32:57 -0400 Received: from [64.80.86.147] (ppp-086-147.verio.axs2000.net [64.80.86.147]) by diskless7.axs2000.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g3CHVJf04428 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:31:19 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:32:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Evaluation notes From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Patrick brings up the issue of poorly filled in forms with few words on them that are not much help. I've noticed this on forms I got back, too. One beer I recently entered in a competition was a Dunkelweizen that was undercarbonated because i bottled it too close to the competition, but tried entering it anyway. The only thing I thought was really wrong with it was that it was undercarbonated. The judges who got this beer (one was a BJCP judge, the other was a "guest judge" listed as a "Professional Brewer") blasted it, giving it an overall score of 18. The comments were almost al negative, and none was particularly helpful. I've found myself guilty of this as well. My comments sometimes read like they were written by a caveman. Often, as judges, we're using someone's building or business to hold the competition. We have a set amount of time to hold the competition and get done so these businesses can reopen and take their space back. Sometimes we're rushed, and we do what we can. So sometimes the beers and sheets don't all get the attention they should. One guy in this area who I know is particularly good with comments and filling out the sheets is David Houseman. On every scoresheet I've gotten back from him, the comments are eloquent, descriptive, and helpful. I would welcome tips from Dave on how he does this. Maybe he can write something to help us out. I haven't had many chances to judge with him, but I'd like to have more. Bill -------------------------- Brew By You 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-BREW (PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from vala.pair.com ([209.68.1.127]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC6608459A7A for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:30:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 63853 invoked by uid 59292); 12 Apr 2002 20:29:55 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs`at`127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Apr 2002 20:29:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:29:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Dion Hollenbeck Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-Sender: Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Need color card Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message If anyone who has an extra color card that they would be willing to part with, I would be willing to pay top dollar. I am talking about the film transparency ones that used to be advertised in all the brew mags and are not any longer available. Or, if anyone knows of a supply somewhere that is languishing, our club would really like to get hold of more than just the one that I want. thanks, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9-- --Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9-- Subject: Digest for the period 4/12/02 - 4/13/02 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 01:03:07 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9" --Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quality Judging (Peter Garofalo) RE: Evaluation notes (Houseman, David L) Re: Digest for the period 4/11/02 - 4/12/02 (Randy Paul) Re: Evaluation notes (Bill Wible) Need color card (Dion Hollenbeck) --Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9" --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailout5.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.122]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66004596A6 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:23:29 -0400 Received: from peter (syr-24-92-233-115.twcny.rr.com [24.92.233.115]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/Road Runner 1.12) with SMTP id g3CCNAM16060 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301c1e21c$938ae6c0$73e95c18`at`peter> From: "Peter Garofalo" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Quality Judging Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:21:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In today's Judgenet, Patrick Twohy writes-- >But if my recent experience is any guide, my approach >is not the norm. Evaluation forms I just got back from >one competition included some that had little more than >one word in each section. One evaluation, for example, >included exactly nine words total on the form for what >the judge felt was a middling sample of beer. The >complete comment under Overall Impression >was, "Needs work." Patrick, many have suffered similar fates, myself included. In fact, the poor feedback that I received in competitions in the early 90s was a main motivating factor in my joining the judging ranks. The way I look at it, there are two alternatives: stop entering competitions, or try to work from the grassroots to improve judging, starting with your own. It sounds like you are (or try to be) the sort of judge you'd like to see judging your own beers. Keep up the good work, and encourage others to do similar quality work. You can rest assured that the judge in question would have heard about it in great detail had he or she done such a poor job judging on the BJCP exam. Over the past years we've greatly expanded the feedback that examinees get, and increased and improved the grader pool. This is where many judges get their start, and I take it as a serious commitment to improving the program. Many agree with me, and work hard at the largely unnoticed job of grading and reviewing exams. We all should take it upon ourselves to do a complete and thorough job whenever we judge, of course. I've actually been criticized for writing an "essay" on a scoresheet, from a judge who's famous for a five-word appraisal. I simply replied that he might feel differently if it were his beer being judged. Well, that's enough ranting. Bottom line: Patrick, you are not alone, and you seem to be on the right track. Now it's time to drive to Cleveland and judge some beer! Cheers, Peter Garofalo BJCP Western Exam Director Syracuse, NY (yeah, that's right...) --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from bbmail1-out.unisys.com ([192.63.108.40]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66014596FD for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:37 -0400 Received: from us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com (us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com [192.63.78.151]) by bbmail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28464 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:13:24 GMT Received: by us-bb-gtwy-1.bb.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <2RTDFW73>; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:19 -0400 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF98390526`at`USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: Evaluation notes Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Patrick, Yes, Patrick, you have it right. Those sketchy judging forms you received were not acceptable. That sort of work will never be rewarded by advancement to the higher ranks in the BJCP. Those judges may have received much better scores on the essay portion of the BJCP exam than the tasting portion ;-) Keep up the good work yourself and continue to provide guidance to the new judges by your example. You are right on target with your approach to beer evaluation. Dave Houseman --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from shell.cais.net ([205.252.14.8]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66034597F1 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:43:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (randy`at`localhost) by shell.cais.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3CFh9r56898 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from randy`at`computer.org) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.cais.net: randy owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Randy Paul Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-Sender: randy`at`shell.cais.net To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/11/02 - 4/12/02 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Patrick Twohy writes: > is not the norm. Evaluation forms I just got back from > one competition included some that had little more than > one word in each section. One evaluation, for example, > included exactly nine words total on the form for ... Agree that this is insufficient, but you need to tell us if it was a BJCP judge or a trainee. Did you send a copy of the sheet to the organizer and recommend he tells the judge to do better or not to return? I've seen certified judges turn in sparse sheets late in the day when I know they've judged strong beers and may not be "at the top of their game." Some have even gone on to do BOS. The organizers are too busy to monitor this, judges must monitor themselves and be confronted with their poor scoresheets if the shoe fits. We don't decertify judges based on the quality of the work (AFAIK) so it seems the organizers sorta do this by putting the worst judges into the least desireable assignments, if any at all. You can subtly apply peer pressure within a table if you spot it happening: seems to work about 1/2 the time with the remainder split between ignored and resented. cheers -- Randy --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from diskless7.axs2000.net ([209.120.196.45]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC66054598A9 for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:32:57 -0400 Received: from [64.80.86.147] (ppp-086-147.verio.axs2000.net [64.80.86.147]) by diskless7.axs2000.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g3CHVJf04428 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:31:19 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:32:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Evaluation notes From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Patrick brings up the issue of poorly filled in forms with few words on them that are not much help. I've noticed this on forms I got back, too. One beer I recently entered in a competition was a Dunkelweizen that was undercarbonated because i bottled it too close to the competition, but tried entering it anyway. The only thing I thought was really wrong with it was that it was undercarbonated. The judges who got this beer (one was a BJCP judge, the other was a "guest judge" listed as a "Professional Brewer") blasted it, giving it an overall score of 18. The comments were almost al negative, and none was particularly helpful. I've found myself guilty of this as well. My comments sometimes read like they were written by a caveman. Often, as judges, we're using someone's building or business to hold the competition. We have a set amount of time to hold the competition and get done so these businesses can reopen and take their space back. Sometimes we're rushed, and we do what we can. So sometimes the beers and sheets don't all get the attention they should. One guy in this area who I know is particularly good with comments and filling out the sheets is David Houseman. On every scoresheet I've gotten back from him, the comments are eloquent, descriptive, and helpful. I would welcome tips from Dave on how he does this. Maybe he can write something to help us out. I haven't had many chances to judge with him, but I'd like to have more. Bill -------------------------- Brew By You 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-BREW (PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from vala.pair.com ([209.68.1.127]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC6608459A7A for judge`at`synchro.com; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:30:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 63853 invoked by uid 59292); 12 Apr 2002 20:29:55 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs`at`127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Apr 2002 20:29:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:29:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Dion Hollenbeck Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-Sender: Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Need color card Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message If anyone who has an extra color card that they would be willing to part with, I would be willing to pay top dollar. I am talking about the film transparency ones that used to be advertised in all the brew mags and are not any longer available. Or, if anyone knows of a supply somewhere that is languishing, our club would really like to get hold of more than just the one that I want. thanks, dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen --Message_Part_SYNC6617459CB9-- --Next_Part_SYNC6617459CB9--