Subject: Digest for the period 2/25/02 - 2/26/02 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:01:50 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC5513438012" --Next_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- re: digest of 2-25 (Nathaniel P. Lansing) Judge's Resposibilities/competitions (Bill Wible) --Next_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC5513438012" --Message_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from siaag2ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.133]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5496437832 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:28:24 -0500 Received: (from mailgate`at`localhost) by siaag2ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id IAA22770 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:28:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:27:43 -0500 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Subject: re: digest of 2-25 Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: <200202250827_MC3-F35B-1D1A`at`compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jay made some interesting points; >> The attitude that a beer isn't "good enough" for a competition's standard= s = belies not only a grinchy arrogance<< It's the BJCP's standards that the beers should meet, not arbitrary 'other' standards. Say f'rinstance those of the MCBA's competition that serves to split the judging community with the attitude that "your competition is not worthy". >>it is an attempt to cover up the fact = that the organizers had not done their jobs well enough to attract good brewers.<< Great, let's hear some suggestions on how to eliminate those brewers that submit infected or scorched beers to our competition. >> Low scores reflect more about the competition than the beers entered.<< It is probably exactly the opposite of what you are insinuating. If a competition constantly give low/poor scorres entrants will stop sending them beers. On the other hand a competition = always gives poor beers higher scores the entrants will return frequently to get better scores than they would get from other competitions. I hope that beer competitions don't degrade to the point that wine competitions have reached. In wine competitions if you meet a certain threshold score you get a first-place ribbon; this means there can be 30 or 40 first places in one category. How would this help the brewer know how he should improve their beer (wine)? I've seen wine scoresheets where every comment is glowing; excellent color and aroma, balanced tannins and acids, but then overall impression is scored low to avoid that 1 point that would give away one more ribbon. I've judged a flight of wheat beers where only 1 used a true wheat yeast, the others were generic dry yeast totally lacking any clove, vanilla or banana character. The one with the true wheat yeast had an infection problem, NONE of these beers qualified for a first place ribbon. It would have been an exercise of "feel good" politics to place one as first place. It would serve no purpose to the brewer to give them a first place ribbon then say "you need to use the correct yeast." It would be contradictory to receive the 1st place ribbon then a scalding= criticism, it would then undermine the value of the competition. N.P. Lansing = --Message_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from diskless7.axs2000.net ([209.120.196.45]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5502437B4A for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:34:36 -0500 Received: from [64.80.87.195] (ppp-087-195.verio.axs2000.net [64.80.87.195]) by diskless7.axs2000.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1PJXTw17628 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:33:29 -0500 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:34:30 -0500 Subject: Judge's Resposibilities/competitions From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message >Geez, its just a ribbon (or stein or medal or whatever). Zero cash value >to the recipient. Bragging rights amongst brewing buddies at best. Its >not like the judge's or the BJCP's credibility is on the line here. Actually, it's NOT just a medal, ribbon, or whatever. You've obviously never been involved with organizing a competition. All winners get prizes, in addition to ribbons. A first place gets awarded a prize worth roughly $50. A second place gets awarded a prize worth roughly $25. A third place gets awarded a prize worth roughly $10- $15. Every competition I know of relies on prize donations for these, and there's never enough to go around. Small shop owners usually end up contributing prizes out of their own pockets when there aren't enough prize donations. >The competition flyer generally indicates how many awards will be given >out and in what style categories. To take the entrant's money and not >award the prizes is just wrong. Once again, written by someone who has never been involved in organizing a competition. A flyer can state all it wants what categories will be accepted. What categories there end up being will be determined by the number of entries in each category. The competition collects trinket fees, usually $5 or $6 for the first entry and $4 or $5 for each additional. Again, this usually doesn't usually begin to cover the competition's expenses, when you take into account printing and copies, soliciting judges for the competition, providing lunch for the judges, buying the ribbons, contributing prizes - especially a good grand prize, buying cups, printing BJCP scoresheets and style guidelines, etc, etc. When there aren't enough entries in a category to have a category stand on its own, it gets combines with other categories. Again, I am on record as saying that this isn't always fair as far as the judging goes, but an organizer cannot hand out $50 + $25 + $10 = $85 in prizes plus 3 ribbons for a category with 3 or 4 beers entered, figuring they took in maybe $25 on those 4 beers. >Competitions lose a lot of the fun factor when some judge trots out the >"none of these beers is worthy" argument. The word "arrogant" comes to >mind. Don't the ribbons have to mean something? You want to be proud of the fact that you WON a ribbon and a prize, not that you got it handed to you by default because you had one of the only 2 or 3 beers in a category. That's ridiculous. I think arrogant is writing with such an attitude about something you obviously have no experience with. Bill -------------------------- Brew By You 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-BREW (PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC5513438012-- --Next_Part_SYNC5513438012-- Subject: Digest for the period 2/25/02 - 2/26/02 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:01:50 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC5513438012" --Next_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- re: digest of 2-25 (Nathaniel P. Lansing) Judge's Resposibilities/competitions (Bill Wible) --Next_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC5513438012" --Message_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from siaag2ac.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.133]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5496437832 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:28:24 -0500 Received: (from mailgate`at`localhost) by siaag2ac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) id IAA22770 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:28:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:27:43 -0500 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Subject: re: digest of 2-25 Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: <200202250827_MC3-F35B-1D1A`at`compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jay made some interesting points; >> The attitude that a beer isn't "good enough" for a competition's standard= s = belies not only a grinchy arrogance<< It's the BJCP's standards that the beers should meet, not arbitrary 'other' standards. Say f'rinstance those of the MCBA's competition that serves to split the judging community with the attitude that "your competition is not worthy". >>it is an attempt to cover up the fact = that the organizers had not done their jobs well enough to attract good brewers.<< Great, let's hear some suggestions on how to eliminate those brewers that submit infected or scorched beers to our competition. >> Low scores reflect more about the competition than the beers entered.<< It is probably exactly the opposite of what you are insinuating. If a competition constantly give low/poor scorres entrants will stop sending them beers. On the other hand a competition = always gives poor beers higher scores the entrants will return frequently to get better scores than they would get from other competitions. I hope that beer competitions don't degrade to the point that wine competitions have reached. In wine competitions if you meet a certain threshold score you get a first-place ribbon; this means there can be 30 or 40 first places in one category. How would this help the brewer know how he should improve their beer (wine)? I've seen wine scoresheets where every comment is glowing; excellent color and aroma, balanced tannins and acids, but then overall impression is scored low to avoid that 1 point that would give away one more ribbon. I've judged a flight of wheat beers where only 1 used a true wheat yeast, the others were generic dry yeast totally lacking any clove, vanilla or banana character. The one with the true wheat yeast had an infection problem, NONE of these beers qualified for a first place ribbon. It would have been an exercise of "feel good" politics to place one as first place. It would serve no purpose to the brewer to give them a first place ribbon then say "you need to use the correct yeast." It would be contradictory to receive the 1st place ribbon then a scalding= criticism, it would then undermine the value of the competition. N.P. Lansing = --Message_Part_SYNC5513438012 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from diskless7.axs2000.net ([209.120.196.45]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5502437B4A for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:34:36 -0500 Received: from [64.80.87.195] (ppp-087-195.verio.axs2000.net [64.80.87.195]) by diskless7.axs2000.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g1PJXTw17628 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:33:29 -0500 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:34:30 -0500 Subject: Judge's Resposibilities/competitions From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message >Geez, its just a ribbon (or stein or medal or whatever). Zero cash value >to the recipient. Bragging rights amongst brewing buddies at best. Its >not like the judge's or the BJCP's credibility is on the line here. Actually, it's NOT just a medal, ribbon, or whatever. You've obviously never been involved with organizing a competition. All winners get prizes, in addition to ribbons. A first place gets awarded a prize worth roughly $50. A second place gets awarded a prize worth roughly $25. A third place gets awarded a prize worth roughly $10- $15. Every competition I know of relies on prize donations for these, and there's never enough to go around. Small shop owners usually end up contributing prizes out of their own pockets when there aren't enough prize donations. >The competition flyer generally indicates how many awards will be given >out and in what style categories. To take the entrant's money and not >award the prizes is just wrong. Once again, written by someone who has never been involved in organizing a competition. A flyer can state all it wants what categories will be accepted. What categories there end up being will be determined by the number of entries in each category. The competition collects trinket fees, usually $5 or $6 for the first entry and $4 or $5 for each additional. Again, this usually doesn't usually begin to cover the competition's expenses, when you take into account printing and copies, soliciting judges for the competition, providing lunch for the judges, buying the ribbons, contributing prizes - especially a good grand prize, buying cups, printing BJCP scoresheets and style guidelines, etc, etc. When there aren't enough entries in a category to have a category stand on its own, it gets combines with other categories. Again, I am on record as saying that this isn't always fair as far as the judging goes, but an organizer cannot hand out $50 + $25 + $10 = $85 in prizes plus 3 ribbons for a category with 3 or 4 beers entered, figuring they took in maybe $25 on those 4 beers. >Competitions lose a lot of the fun factor when some judge trots out the >"none of these beers is worthy" argument. The word "arrogant" comes to >mind. Don't the ribbons have to mean something? You want to be proud of the fact that you WON a ribbon and a prize, not that you got it handed to you by default because you had one of the only 2 or 3 beers in a category. That's ridiculous. I think arrogant is writing with such an attitude about something you obviously have no experience with. Bill -------------------------- Brew By You 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-BREW (PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC5513438012-- --Next_Part_SYNC5513438012--