Subject: Digest for the period 2/17/02 - 2/18/02 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:03:10 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2" --Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Commercial vs Homebrew/Goals of the BJCP (Wayne Wambles) Re: Digest for the period 2/14/02 - 2/15/02 (OudBruin`at`aol.com) --Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2" --Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.226]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5308432260 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:26:58 -0500 Received: from pool-63.49.55.205.tmpa.grid.net ([63.49.55.205] helo=beernazimindspring) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cV5S-0002an-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:26:54 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c1b7da$86a999e0$cd37313f`at`com> From: "Wayne Wambles" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Commercial vs Homebrew/Goals of the BJCP Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:42:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In response to Bill's comment on commercial brewing, I would like to say that I think that commercial brewing does have a bearing on the BJCP. Whether it be unintentional or apparent, it can not be avoided. Commercial brewers do not all have the large corporate brewer mindset as far as marketing goes and their clientele are concerned. We are interested in educating the public as well as giving them a good product to consume. In a way we are just as concerned about educating the public as the BJCP is. This being due to the fact that an educated market is a more profitable market and a more pleasing market to brew for(at least in my opinion it is). For the last time, Irish-style amber ale exists. It is not just a lager with coloring and flavor added. If you still have problems with this just go and buy a Micheal Shea's Irish Amber(yes, it is a lager but has very similar characteristics to the style and is usually readily available). If you still have problems with this then do research on the subject. A good starting point would be M. Jackson's Beer Companion, page 111 is where the Irish Ale chapter begins. Commercial beer is an effective resource for the BJCP due to it being referenced for commercial examples to give experienced and less experienced judges education on a particular style. Commercial brewers are not strictly bound by guidelines but if we compete then we are bound by the PPBT(professional panel of blind tasting)guidelines(used by the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival). I don't think that the American craft brewing industry is in a bad state. It has seen growth for the last 2-3 years and is steadily taking its stake of the market. No, it is not the brewing industry that might have been had prohibition not come along but under the circumstances, the U.S. is one of the greatest brewing countries in the world due to the variety of styles that we produce(although, Japan is becoming more and more interesting). As homebrewers, we don't have to make beer for a living(at least some of you don't) but we are still affected by the commercial breweries. What made most of you start brewing? Was it after you put down the large corporate commercial beer that was relatively bland and had the imported, micro or brewpub beer and exclaimed to yourself, "Beer is supposed to taste like this". Then you decide later on to start brewing because of the influence of commercial breweries. I suppose that some of you might tell me that you never had a commercial beer and just decided to start brewing beer for the hell of it. The latter comment really doesn't make any sense to me. The purpose of the BJCP is stated quite simply and is sort of like our Constitution. It is meant to be taken loosely. The purpose of the BJCP is much more than just the simple definition conveyed and is affected by things outside of homebrewing(the previous paragraphs contain examples). I think that overall the BJCP is responsible for the revival of historic styles and the preservation of them. It is individuals inside the BJCP that do the research and test batches that are partly responsible for the revival of these historic styles Cream Ale( Jeff Renner) and Pre-Prohibition Pils. The homebrewing community is influenced by commercial brewers to produce certain styles(that they are producing commercially) if they make a big enough impression on certain individuals within the homebrewing community. A good example is Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Just look what happened! We are all in the same community when it boils down to it. We all share ideas and it is impossible to separate homebrewing and commercial brewing from one another. I think that they desperately need each other. We don't necessarily have to add something to the guidelines just because it is being brewed commercially but I do believe that we should consider certain styles that are available commercially as potential additions to the guidelines. I know that we have already been through this before but a good reference for the addition of styles to the BJCP would be the PPBT. The styles that we are all possibly considering adding to the guidelines(most of the ones we discussed) are already somewhat defined in the PPBT guidelines. They would be a good starting point for the separtation of the India Pale Ale category. They would also be of interest to look at regarding Strong Ales, Irish-style Amber, Golden Ale and Rye Ale/Lager. I am not saying that they should be taken in by the BJCP word for word but I do believe they might be a good starting point. Actually, why is sake not a part of our guidelines now that I think about it? Why do we not have a category for beverages made completely from a grain source other that barley and wheat? Would this just fall under specialty/experimental/historical? In closing I would like to say that yes Bill, I do feel like we as commercial brewers/homebrewers or a combination of both should add/edit styles to reflect historical and current styles(the current styles that I am speaking of do not include marketing ploys like Zima). How to fairly decide what comes, stays and goes is an altogether different question. Take care, Wayne Wambles Buckhead Brewery & Grille Tallahassee FL --Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.41]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5309432298 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:29:14 -0500 Received: from OudBruin`at`aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id u.e6.234349f8 (4532) for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:29:10 -0500 (EST) From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:29:09 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 2/14/02 - 2/15/02 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message PERHAPS I DIDN'T MAKE MY POINT AS EFFECTIVELY AS POSSIBLE, FIRST- I BELIEVE THAT BJCP MEMBERSHIP HAS TO CONTINUE TO STRETCH ITSELF TO LEARN UNORTHODOX STYLES OF BEER. SECOND, I QUESTION THE INCLUSION OF MEAD AND CIDER AS LITIGIMATE STYLES FOR THE BJCP, WHILE BJCP CONTINUES TO IGNORE LITIGIMATE BEER STYLES AS MILLIT BEER AND SAKE- PERHAPS THE AMERICAN WINEMAKERS ASSN WILL BE MORE INTERESTED - IN SAKE THAN THE BJCP. THIRD, (NOW PAY ATTENTION BOYS AND GIRLS)- IF YOU HAVE TRULY ACHIEVED UNDERSTANDING OF BEER- THE BICKERING OVER STYLES BECOMES SECONDARY TO THE CRUX OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO- IS THE BEER GOOD OR NOT? I don't care if it's a pils brewed after midnight on a full moon, or a mexican cervasia clara, is it a good beer? Is it flawed? What are the flaws?, SEcondary to the evualation of the beer is the fact perhaps the brewer fails to understand what a Pils is as opposed to a Hells, AT that point it's the responsibility of the organisor to have provided and listed what styles will be judged and Provide copies of the style guidelines to all involved. if there is no diferenation between a pils and hells,guess what me hearties? It's up to you, the judge to sort things out (So what do you do when the organisor lists German lagers and you have 2 great beers a wonderfull north german style export and a smoth munich style hells??) Thats why there is usually some poor sod who is the Head of the Judges- We're looking at pallete, not conformity to some subjective style guideline. THE QUESTION IS: IS THE BEER GOOD??? Bruce Hammell --Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2-- --Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2-- Subject: Digest for the period 2/17/02 - 2/18/02 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:03:10 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2" --Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Commercial vs Homebrew/Goals of the BJCP (Wayne Wambles) Re: Digest for the period 2/14/02 - 2/15/02 (OudBruin`at`aol.com) --Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2" --Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.226]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5308432260 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:26:58 -0500 Received: from pool-63.49.55.205.tmpa.grid.net ([63.49.55.205] helo=beernazimindspring) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cV5S-0002an-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:26:54 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c1b7da$86a999e0$cd37313f`at`com> From: "Wayne Wambles" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Commercial vs Homebrew/Goals of the BJCP Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:42:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In response to Bill's comment on commercial brewing, I would like to say that I think that commercial brewing does have a bearing on the BJCP. Whether it be unintentional or apparent, it can not be avoided. Commercial brewers do not all have the large corporate brewer mindset as far as marketing goes and their clientele are concerned. We are interested in educating the public as well as giving them a good product to consume. In a way we are just as concerned about educating the public as the BJCP is. This being due to the fact that an educated market is a more profitable market and a more pleasing market to brew for(at least in my opinion it is). For the last time, Irish-style amber ale exists. It is not just a lager with coloring and flavor added. If you still have problems with this just go and buy a Micheal Shea's Irish Amber(yes, it is a lager but has very similar characteristics to the style and is usually readily available). If you still have problems with this then do research on the subject. A good starting point would be M. Jackson's Beer Companion, page 111 is where the Irish Ale chapter begins. Commercial beer is an effective resource for the BJCP due to it being referenced for commercial examples to give experienced and less experienced judges education on a particular style. Commercial brewers are not strictly bound by guidelines but if we compete then we are bound by the PPBT(professional panel of blind tasting)guidelines(used by the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival). I don't think that the American craft brewing industry is in a bad state. It has seen growth for the last 2-3 years and is steadily taking its stake of the market. No, it is not the brewing industry that might have been had prohibition not come along but under the circumstances, the U.S. is one of the greatest brewing countries in the world due to the variety of styles that we produce(although, Japan is becoming more and more interesting). As homebrewers, we don't have to make beer for a living(at least some of you don't) but we are still affected by the commercial breweries. What made most of you start brewing? Was it after you put down the large corporate commercial beer that was relatively bland and had the imported, micro or brewpub beer and exclaimed to yourself, "Beer is supposed to taste like this". Then you decide later on to start brewing because of the influence of commercial breweries. I suppose that some of you might tell me that you never had a commercial beer and just decided to start brewing beer for the hell of it. The latter comment really doesn't make any sense to me. The purpose of the BJCP is stated quite simply and is sort of like our Constitution. It is meant to be taken loosely. The purpose of the BJCP is much more than just the simple definition conveyed and is affected by things outside of homebrewing(the previous paragraphs contain examples). I think that overall the BJCP is responsible for the revival of historic styles and the preservation of them. It is individuals inside the BJCP that do the research and test batches that are partly responsible for the revival of these historic styles Cream Ale( Jeff Renner) and Pre-Prohibition Pils. The homebrewing community is influenced by commercial brewers to produce certain styles(that they are producing commercially) if they make a big enough impression on certain individuals within the homebrewing community. A good example is Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Just look what happened! We are all in the same community when it boils down to it. We all share ideas and it is impossible to separate homebrewing and commercial brewing from one another. I think that they desperately need each other. We don't necessarily have to add something to the guidelines just because it is being brewed commercially but I do believe that we should consider certain styles that are available commercially as potential additions to the guidelines. I know that we have already been through this before but a good reference for the addition of styles to the BJCP would be the PPBT. The styles that we are all possibly considering adding to the guidelines(most of the ones we discussed) are already somewhat defined in the PPBT guidelines. They would be a good starting point for the separtation of the India Pale Ale category. They would also be of interest to look at regarding Strong Ales, Irish-style Amber, Golden Ale and Rye Ale/Lager. I am not saying that they should be taken in by the BJCP word for word but I do believe they might be a good starting point. Actually, why is sake not a part of our guidelines now that I think about it? Why do we not have a category for beverages made completely from a grain source other that barley and wheat? Would this just fall under specialty/experimental/historical? In closing I would like to say that yes Bill, I do feel like we as commercial brewers/homebrewers or a combination of both should add/edit styles to reflect historical and current styles(the current styles that I am speaking of do not include marketing ploys like Zima). How to fairly decide what comes, stays and goes is an altogether different question. Take care, Wayne Wambles Buckhead Brewery & Grille Tallahassee FL --Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.41]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC5309432298 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:29:14 -0500 Received: from OudBruin`at`aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id u.e6.234349f8 (4532) for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:29:10 -0500 (EST) From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:29:09 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 2/14/02 - 2/15/02 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message PERHAPS I DIDN'T MAKE MY POINT AS EFFECTIVELY AS POSSIBLE, FIRST- I BELIEVE THAT BJCP MEMBERSHIP HAS TO CONTINUE TO STRETCH ITSELF TO LEARN UNORTHODOX STYLES OF BEER. SECOND, I QUESTION THE INCLUSION OF MEAD AND CIDER AS LITIGIMATE STYLES FOR THE BJCP, WHILE BJCP CONTINUES TO IGNORE LITIGIMATE BEER STYLES AS MILLIT BEER AND SAKE- PERHAPS THE AMERICAN WINEMAKERS ASSN WILL BE MORE INTERESTED - IN SAKE THAN THE BJCP. THIRD, (NOW PAY ATTENTION BOYS AND GIRLS)- IF YOU HAVE TRULY ACHIEVED UNDERSTANDING OF BEER- THE BICKERING OVER STYLES BECOMES SECONDARY TO THE CRUX OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO- IS THE BEER GOOD OR NOT? I don't care if it's a pils brewed after midnight on a full moon, or a mexican cervasia clara, is it a good beer? Is it flawed? What are the flaws?, SEcondary to the evualation of the beer is the fact perhaps the brewer fails to understand what a Pils is as opposed to a Hells, AT that point it's the responsibility of the organisor to have provided and listed what styles will be judged and Provide copies of the style guidelines to all involved. if there is no diferenation between a pils and hells,guess what me hearties? It's up to you, the judge to sort things out (So what do you do when the organisor lists German lagers and you have 2 great beers a wonderfull north german style export and a smoth munich style hells??) Thats why there is usually some poor sod who is the Head of the Judges- We're looking at pallete, not conformity to some subjective style guideline. THE QUESTION IS: IS THE BEER GOOD??? Bruce Hammell --Message_Part_SYNC53214324E2-- --Next_Part_SYNC53214324E2--