Subject: Digest for the period 2/4/02 - 2/5/02 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 01:03:31 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA" --Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Missing Styles (BillPierce`at`aol.com) Scottish Ales in Scotland (Jeffrey Pinhey) RE: flavor space (Steve Casselman) Severing Specs in Style guide (Steve Casselman) --Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA" --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.102]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4985426CD8 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 01:02:32 -0500 Received: from BillPierce`at`aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id u.4d.1894e05a (30964) for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:02:22 -0500 (EST) From: BillPierce`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: <4d.1894e05a.298f7ded`at`aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:02:21 EST Subject: Re: Missing Styles To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message The recent debate about styles raises some fascinating questions. Graphing and mathematical modeling are an interesting academic exercise and might be helpful to show where there are stylistic gaps and overlaps, but a model of reality is not the same as reality itself. It seems to me that the style guidelines attempt to represent a number of distinctions that might be separated into various groupings, including (but not limited to): Geographic origin Historical origin Specific gravity Color General flavors (e.g., malt, esters, caramel, roast) Bittering Malts and other grains (e.g., wheat beers) Yeast strains Hop varieties Nonstandard ingredients or brewing methods (fruit beers, spiced beers, smoked beers, eisbock, steinbeer) Sometimes it takes time for reality to catch up with history, or vice versa. For example, while there no doubt were amber ales brewed in Ireland, there was not historically an Irish Red Ale style that developed. This is a recent phenomenon that originated primarily in America and is something of a marketing creation, although we are beginning to be able to define what constitutes such beers. Because they are being brewed we can now consider including them as a recognized style. As for the comment that there is no category for Golden Ale, isn't this sufficiently close to the current Blond Ale category to be essentially the same style? A number of brewers use lager recipes but ferment them with a neutral ale strain at ale temperatures, then substitute cold conditioning in the bottle, keg or serving tank for traditional lagering. I have had a number of "aletoberfests," "pilsner ales" and "ale bocks," for example. Should each of these beers constitute a different style category? If there is such a thing as a West Coast Stout, what about porter, or do we acknowledge this distinction in the Robust Porter category, which has higher gravity and bittering (often with American hops) than Brown Porter? I don't believe the style guidelines will ever be frozen and there is always room for healthy discussion and debate on the subject. Brew on! -- Bill Pierce Cellar Door Homebrewery Highwood, IL --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ns01s0.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.91]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC499142701E for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:41:07 -0500 Received: from [10.40.151.19] ([142.177.230.43]) by mail-ns01s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:42:41 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:39:31 -0400 Subject: Scottish Ales in Scotland From: Jeffrey Pinhey Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I have been to Scotland the past two Octobers. Belhaven arguably uses more hops than the other traditional brewery beers in Scotland. That, combined with a distinctive smokiness (yeast?) tends to make the beer more apparently bitter (and in my opinion, better) than the typical Caledonia products. The reality is that more and more beers are being made in Scotland that are hoppier. And not only micros. (i.e. Deuchars!!) There is also, apparently, a growing "dark" style that is somewhere between a porter and a brown ale. (i.e. Orkney Island Dark). Caledonia 80 and Thomas Calders are available on keg pressure (Cally 80 on cask is much better) throughout much of Scotland. They probably better reflect our current style Guidelines. A lot of those beers are consumed, although you have to recognize that the biggest sales in Scotland are of Tennants Lager. (yikes!) It was very difficult to find a 60 shilling (I did eventually find both Belhaven and Caledonia versions) and they would meet the low hop idea we seem to have of all Scottish ales, but, as I said, they are hard to find. Pub owners repeatedly told me that their patrons did not like the hops evident in English beers, but the market for more hops seems to be growing. The Iris Rose brewpub/brewery in Kingussie was open in 2000, when the brewer tried to convince me of this preference. The brewery was closed this year, but the attached pub had several excellent, hoppy guest beers on cask. Jeff Pinhey in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.142]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC500142749E for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:46:36 -0500 Received: from HILBERT ([64.174.106.246]) by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GR1005LI5X2GY`at`mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:46:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:41:22 -0800 From: Steve Casselman Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Subject: RE: flavor space In-reply-to: To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Yes Dave is right a lot of smart have thought about this this subject before. What would great is to have this data and present it graphically in a program people could use. I think if there were a program that would allow people to place their beer into competition into the right styles (or closer at least) it would help the judges a lot. Steve I'd be willing to help design an experimental approach using multivariate techniques to explore how current styles bunch, as well as portions of the space that appear open and unaccounted for. With the recent posting of the diverse list of beer style classifications used out there, its quite amazing to me that names of styles often seem to have little to do with finding clear distinctions of flavor space, but it would be cool to test it. I know, because I brew it regularly, that the Mexican oscura lager I make has no home, but it would be really interesting to compare it to some well regarded potential neighbors. cheers, --dave sapsis (an ecologist by training, a brewer by choice), sacramento --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.142]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC50024274AE for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:00:41 -0500 Received: from HILBERT ([64.174.106.246]) by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GR100F9L6KPQM`at`mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:00:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:55:34 -0800 From: Steve Casselman Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Subject: Severing Specs in Style guide In-reply-to: To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Some of my fellow club members have asked my to post a thought about serving specs being included the guidelines. In other words things like "Hefe-Weizen should be rolled in the bottle and served at X temperature." The thought being that at least serving temperature should be included in a styles specs. It could be stuck in the comments section if nothing else. Steve --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA-- --Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA-- Subject: Digest for the period 2/4/02 - 2/5/02 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 01:03:31 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA" --Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Missing Styles (BillPierce`at`aol.com) Scottish Ales in Scotland (Jeffrey Pinhey) RE: flavor space (Steve Casselman) Severing Specs in Style guide (Steve Casselman) --Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA" --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.102]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4985426CD8 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 01:02:32 -0500 Received: from BillPierce`at`aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id u.4d.1894e05a (30964) for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:02:22 -0500 (EST) From: BillPierce`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: <4d.1894e05a.298f7ded`at`aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:02:21 EST Subject: Re: Missing Styles To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message The recent debate about styles raises some fascinating questions. Graphing and mathematical modeling are an interesting academic exercise and might be helpful to show where there are stylistic gaps and overlaps, but a model of reality is not the same as reality itself. It seems to me that the style guidelines attempt to represent a number of distinctions that might be separated into various groupings, including (but not limited to): Geographic origin Historical origin Specific gravity Color General flavors (e.g., malt, esters, caramel, roast) Bittering Malts and other grains (e.g., wheat beers) Yeast strains Hop varieties Nonstandard ingredients or brewing methods (fruit beers, spiced beers, smoked beers, eisbock, steinbeer) Sometimes it takes time for reality to catch up with history, or vice versa. For example, while there no doubt were amber ales brewed in Ireland, there was not historically an Irish Red Ale style that developed. This is a recent phenomenon that originated primarily in America and is something of a marketing creation, although we are beginning to be able to define what constitutes such beers. Because they are being brewed we can now consider including them as a recognized style. As for the comment that there is no category for Golden Ale, isn't this sufficiently close to the current Blond Ale category to be essentially the same style? A number of brewers use lager recipes but ferment them with a neutral ale strain at ale temperatures, then substitute cold conditioning in the bottle, keg or serving tank for traditional lagering. I have had a number of "aletoberfests," "pilsner ales" and "ale bocks," for example. Should each of these beers constitute a different style category? If there is such a thing as a West Coast Stout, what about porter, or do we acknowledge this distinction in the Robust Porter category, which has higher gravity and bittering (often with American hops) than Brown Porter? I don't believe the style guidelines will ever be frozen and there is always room for healthy discussion and debate on the subject. Brew on! -- Bill Pierce Cellar Door Homebrewery Highwood, IL --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ns01s0.ns.sympatico.ca ([142.177.1.91]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC499142701E for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 07:41:07 -0500 Received: from [10.40.151.19] ([142.177.230.43]) by mail-ns01s0.ns.sympatico.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-68925U141000L141000S0V35) with ESMTP id ca for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:42:41 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:39:31 -0400 Subject: Scottish Ales in Scotland From: Jeffrey Pinhey Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I have been to Scotland the past two Octobers. Belhaven arguably uses more hops than the other traditional brewery beers in Scotland. That, combined with a distinctive smokiness (yeast?) tends to make the beer more apparently bitter (and in my opinion, better) than the typical Caledonia products. The reality is that more and more beers are being made in Scotland that are hoppier. And not only micros. (i.e. Deuchars!!) There is also, apparently, a growing "dark" style that is somewhere between a porter and a brown ale. (i.e. Orkney Island Dark). Caledonia 80 and Thomas Calders are available on keg pressure (Cally 80 on cask is much better) throughout much of Scotland. They probably better reflect our current style Guidelines. A lot of those beers are consumed, although you have to recognize that the biggest sales in Scotland are of Tennants Lager. (yikes!) It was very difficult to find a 60 shilling (I did eventually find both Belhaven and Caledonia versions) and they would meet the low hop idea we seem to have of all Scottish ales, but, as I said, they are hard to find. Pub owners repeatedly told me that their patrons did not like the hops evident in English beers, but the market for more hops seems to be growing. The Iris Rose brewpub/brewery in Kingussie was open in 2000, when the brewer tried to convince me of this preference. The brewery was closed this year, but the attached pub had several excellent, hoppy guest beers on cask. Jeff Pinhey in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.142]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC500142749E for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:46:36 -0500 Received: from HILBERT ([64.174.106.246]) by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GR1005LI5X2GY`at`mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:46:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:41:22 -0800 From: Steve Casselman Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Subject: RE: flavor space In-reply-to: To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Yes Dave is right a lot of smart have thought about this this subject before. What would great is to have this data and present it graphically in a program people could use. I think if there were a program that would allow people to place their beer into competition into the right styles (or closer at least) it would help the judges a lot. Steve I'd be willing to help design an experimental approach using multivariate techniques to explore how current styles bunch, as well as portions of the space that appear open and unaccounted for. With the recent posting of the diverse list of beer style classifications used out there, its quite amazing to me that names of styles often seem to have little to do with finding clear distinctions of flavor space, but it would be cool to test it. I know, because I brew it regularly, that the Mexican oscura lager I make has no home, but it would be really interesting to compare it to some well regarded potential neighbors. cheers, --dave sapsis (an ecologist by training, a brewer by choice), sacramento --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.142]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC50024274AE for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:00:41 -0500 Received: from HILBERT ([64.174.106.246]) by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GR100F9L6KPQM`at`mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:00:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 14:55:34 -0800 From: Steve Casselman Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Subject: Severing Specs in Style guide In-reply-to: To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Some of my fellow club members have asked my to post a thought about serving specs being included the guidelines. In other words things like "Hefe-Weizen should be rolled in the bottle and served at X temperature." The thought being that at least serving temperature should be included in a styles specs. It could be stuck in the comments section if nothing else. Steve --Message_Part_SYNC50094276AA-- --Next_Part_SYNC50094276AA--