Subject: Digest for the period 1/23/02 - 1/24/02 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:00:09 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC472142141C" --Next_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Style Guideline Changes (Mark Tumarkin) Re: Hop Varieties (Joel Plutchak) Re: Hop Varieties (Tyce Heldenbrand) RE: English vs American Barleywines (John C. Tull) Re: Americas Finest City (Dion Hollenbeck) --Next_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC472142141C" --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC46804205E4 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:46:52 -0500 Received: from 1cust57.tnt6.gainesville.fl.da.uu.net ([63.29.227.57] helo=markt) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16T1GE-0007P4-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:46:50 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c1a34a$d597fe60$39e31d3f`at`markt> From: "Mark Tumarkin" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Style Guideline Changes Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:43:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Lyle makes some good points in his post on the new styles thread. But I think the main question isn't about hop varieties so much as hopping levels. Lyle wrote: "There have been several discussions lately about regional designations based on hop varieties. SUch as the recent thread about "West COast Stout" and the new thread about American vs. English Barley Wines." I think it's more like Am Browns vs the English Browns - way more hoppage. Quantity, not variety, is the main issue, though use of American hops certainly plays into the question. I can certainly understand the problem of trying to enter a stout that's way too hoppy for any of the current stout sub-categories (or porters, for that matter). One of my recipes is called Scorned Lover - a Dark & Bitter Brew. Need I say more? A brew of this type doesn't meet the current guidelines. There are a lot of homebrewers and brewpubs brewing dark, hoppy beers. The question is whether there are enough entries in competitions to justify adding a new subcategory. With barleywines; on the compare/contrast issue the defining difference between the Eng & Am styles is hops. Again, more in quantity than variety. I'd agree that there aren't Eng commercial examples with anywhere near the IBU's common in many Am examples. With homebrewers, it may be a different story. I'm sure there are people brewing with 80-100 IBU's of Goldings, Fuggles, etc. Again, the question is - how many highly hopped Eng barleywines are being entered in competitions? The guidelines are meant to be a changing thing. But what type of mechanism do we have in place to track entries, to get a sense of how few or how many entries we get in particular styles nationwide? How else do we know when the guidelines need changing? Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from staff3.cso.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.54]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4681420609 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:34:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (plutchak`at`localhost [127.0.0.1]) by staff3.cso.uiuc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g0MEYfe28947 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:34:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:34:40 -0600 (CST) From: Joel Plutchak Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-X-Sender: To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Hop Varieties Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Lyle C. Brown writes, regarding BJCP beer styles: >As JUDGES, we must use our educated palates, and our best >JUDGEment when scoring a beer. Sure, but we have responsibilities to the brewer, and to the organizer of the competition. The brewer should have his/her entry judged to the style guidelines s/he brewed to, and the organizer deserves to have the judges judge to the guidelines s/he advertises. Since in my experience the vast majority of competitions use the BJCP guidelines unchanged in any way, beers emulating Rogue's Shakespear Stout or Three Floyd's Black Sun Stout don't really have a place in competitions. Lyle also seems to be saying that basing beer styles on hop character is too narrow. Well, what about those styles differentiated primarily on strength, color, yeast choice, or grain type? At some point we have to either realize there are bona fide ways to classify beers, or just give up and make all judging a simple popularity contest. Or perhaps simply not participate in homebrew competitions (which is a valid choice BTW). Joel Plutchak, Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots Chamnpaign Illinois --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from SD-MAIL2.wfinet.com ([205.158.219.131]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC468442073D for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:35:04 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Hop Varieties Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:38:49 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hop Varieties Thread-Index: AcGjaxrAAJTQepDQRkGWmy6KD4OCtQ== From: "Tyce Heldenbrand" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Lyle states, "Also, regarding American vs British Barleywines: Tyce Heldenbrand states " know several brewers including myself that brew a very big English Barleywine with the gravity hitting 1.15 to 1.20." No offense meant here, but just because a few homebrewers make a beer to a particular way, even judges, doesn't "make" a new style." Lyle, you miss understood what my point was. I wasn't saying that just because I make a big English barleywine that I was "making" a new style. The point is, the perception is often mistaken that English Barleywines are "wimpier" (pardon the expression) than American Barleywines and that is simply untrue. English Barleywines can have a gravity of as high as 1.120, and that is surly not as wimpy as 1.120 American Barleywine. "My point is moot if Tyce is a professional brewer, but only marginally so." No. I am not a professional brewer, nor do I have that desire. "Tyce further states "The difference between English and American Barleywines should be hop varieties and possibly yeast strain." Again, back to the hops. There should be no specific requirements for a particular hop for barleywines, although some will obviously work better than others." I disagree Lyle. If you put Centennial and Cascade hops in an English-style Barleywine, the judges should notice it and deduct points for being out of style. It works the same way with pale ales. If you make an English-style pale ale (English Bitter more-less), and you put Cascade hops in it, again, the judges should notice it and deduct points. Hops do make up a big profile of the beer... even for Barleywines! "Certainly, one would question the use of cascade in a pilsner, but still, the question should be whether or not the result "works," and whether it meets that subtle Pilsner-ness we should be looking for. As JUDGES, we must use our educated palates, and our best JUDGEment when scoring a beer." It kinda sounds like your saying, if a beer tastes good, no matter what hops are used, it should be a good scoring beer, regardless of style guidelines. Tyce Heldenbrand tyce.heldenbrand`at`wfinet.com --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from unr.edu ([134.197.1.2]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4709421118 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:41:20 -0500 Received: from jctull.biology.unr.edu (jctull.biology.unr.edu [134.197.55.114]) by unr.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0NIh5L06937 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:41:17 -0800 Subject: RE: English vs American Barleywines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) From: "John C. Tull" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message > From: Steve Casselman Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:46:42 -0800 > Subject: Subject: RE: English vs American Barleywines > > > > Tyce Heldenbrand says > "I don't think > that 60 IBU's is going to be enough to balance the sweetness of a 1.20 > starting gravity English Barleywine." > > Yes I think your right. 60 is too low. Maybe you can suggest some other > number? I'm thinking that the English Barleywine style should reflect > the > barley wines made in England (although that's just my assumption). Does > anyone > know the specs of a English Barleywine that goes to the top end?? Also > for > that matter I'm pretty sure that there are some American Barleywines > that go > over the 100 IBU mark. Does anyone know the highest claimed IBUs for an > American Barleywine??? > > Thanks > > Steve Steve, I do not imagine that this will be the highest claimed IBU for a barleywine, but it is getting up there. Old Crustacean from Rogue Ales in Oregon is a 1.110 gravity beer with 120 IBU's and 38 Lovibond color. Unfortunately, Sierra Nevada does not list their hopping rate on Bigfoot Barleywine. John Tull --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from woodsprite.com ([66.75.1.117]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4710421138 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:21:53 -0500 Received: (from hollen`at`localhost) by woodsprite.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0NJLKF01885; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:21:20 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Americas Finest City From: Dion Hollenbeck Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Date: 23 Jan 2002 11:20:18 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message >> Tyce writes: Tyce> Lyle, Tyce> Americas Finest City = San Diego, CA. There is none other America's Tyce> Finest City. Tyce> Tyce Heldenbrand Tyce> tyce.heldenbrand`at`wfinet.com Sorry, I had a brain fart when I sent out the competition notice. The city was on the postcards that went out to all So. Cal. judges. Yes, both the AHANHC Southwest Regionals and America's Finest City Homebrew Competition are in San Diego. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C-- --Next_Part_SYNC472142141C-- Subject: Digest for the period 1/23/02 - 1/24/02 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:00:09 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC472142141C" --Next_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Style Guideline Changes (Mark Tumarkin) Re: Hop Varieties (Joel Plutchak) Re: Hop Varieties (Tyce Heldenbrand) RE: English vs American Barleywines (John C. Tull) Re: Americas Finest City (Dion Hollenbeck) --Next_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC472142141C" --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC46804205E4 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:46:52 -0500 Received: from 1cust57.tnt6.gainesville.fl.da.uu.net ([63.29.227.57] helo=markt) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16T1GE-0007P4-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:46:50 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c1a34a$d597fe60$39e31d3f`at`markt> From: "Mark Tumarkin" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Style Guideline Changes Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:43:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Lyle makes some good points in his post on the new styles thread. But I think the main question isn't about hop varieties so much as hopping levels. Lyle wrote: "There have been several discussions lately about regional designations based on hop varieties. SUch as the recent thread about "West COast Stout" and the new thread about American vs. English Barley Wines." I think it's more like Am Browns vs the English Browns - way more hoppage. Quantity, not variety, is the main issue, though use of American hops certainly plays into the question. I can certainly understand the problem of trying to enter a stout that's way too hoppy for any of the current stout sub-categories (or porters, for that matter). One of my recipes is called Scorned Lover - a Dark & Bitter Brew. Need I say more? A brew of this type doesn't meet the current guidelines. There are a lot of homebrewers and brewpubs brewing dark, hoppy beers. The question is whether there are enough entries in competitions to justify adding a new subcategory. With barleywines; on the compare/contrast issue the defining difference between the Eng & Am styles is hops. Again, more in quantity than variety. I'd agree that there aren't Eng commercial examples with anywhere near the IBU's common in many Am examples. With homebrewers, it may be a different story. I'm sure there are people brewing with 80-100 IBU's of Goldings, Fuggles, etc. Again, the question is - how many highly hopped Eng barleywines are being entered in competitions? The guidelines are meant to be a changing thing. But what type of mechanism do we have in place to track entries, to get a sense of how few or how many entries we get in particular styles nationwide? How else do we know when the guidelines need changing? Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from staff3.cso.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.54]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4681420609 for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:34:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (plutchak`at`localhost [127.0.0.1]) by staff3.cso.uiuc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g0MEYfe28947 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:34:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:34:40 -0600 (CST) From: Joel Plutchak Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com X-X-Sender: To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Hop Varieties Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Lyle C. Brown writes, regarding BJCP beer styles: >As JUDGES, we must use our educated palates, and our best >JUDGEment when scoring a beer. Sure, but we have responsibilities to the brewer, and to the organizer of the competition. The brewer should have his/her entry judged to the style guidelines s/he brewed to, and the organizer deserves to have the judges judge to the guidelines s/he advertises. Since in my experience the vast majority of competitions use the BJCP guidelines unchanged in any way, beers emulating Rogue's Shakespear Stout or Three Floyd's Black Sun Stout don't really have a place in competitions. Lyle also seems to be saying that basing beer styles on hop character is too narrow. Well, what about those styles differentiated primarily on strength, color, yeast choice, or grain type? At some point we have to either realize there are bona fide ways to classify beers, or just give up and make all judging a simple popularity contest. Or perhaps simply not participate in homebrew competitions (which is a valid choice BTW). Joel Plutchak, Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots Chamnpaign Illinois --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from SD-MAIL2.wfinet.com ([205.158.219.131]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC468442073D for judge`at`synchro.com; Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:35:04 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Hop Varieties Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:38:49 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hop Varieties Thread-Index: AcGjaxrAAJTQepDQRkGWmy6KD4OCtQ== From: "Tyce Heldenbrand" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Lyle states, "Also, regarding American vs British Barleywines: Tyce Heldenbrand states " know several brewers including myself that brew a very big English Barleywine with the gravity hitting 1.15 to 1.20." No offense meant here, but just because a few homebrewers make a beer to a particular way, even judges, doesn't "make" a new style." Lyle, you miss understood what my point was. I wasn't saying that just because I make a big English barleywine that I was "making" a new style. The point is, the perception is often mistaken that English Barleywines are "wimpier" (pardon the expression) than American Barleywines and that is simply untrue. English Barleywines can have a gravity of as high as 1.120, and that is surly not as wimpy as 1.120 American Barleywine. "My point is moot if Tyce is a professional brewer, but only marginally so." No. I am not a professional brewer, nor do I have that desire. "Tyce further states "The difference between English and American Barleywines should be hop varieties and possibly yeast strain." Again, back to the hops. There should be no specific requirements for a particular hop for barleywines, although some will obviously work better than others." I disagree Lyle. If you put Centennial and Cascade hops in an English-style Barleywine, the judges should notice it and deduct points for being out of style. It works the same way with pale ales. If you make an English-style pale ale (English Bitter more-less), and you put Cascade hops in it, again, the judges should notice it and deduct points. Hops do make up a big profile of the beer... even for Barleywines! "Certainly, one would question the use of cascade in a pilsner, but still, the question should be whether or not the result "works," and whether it meets that subtle Pilsner-ness we should be looking for. As JUDGES, we must use our educated palates, and our best JUDGEment when scoring a beer." It kinda sounds like your saying, if a beer tastes good, no matter what hops are used, it should be a good scoring beer, regardless of style guidelines. Tyce Heldenbrand tyce.heldenbrand`at`wfinet.com --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from unr.edu ([134.197.1.2]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4709421118 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:41:20 -0500 Received: from jctull.biology.unr.edu (jctull.biology.unr.edu [134.197.55.114]) by unr.edu (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0NIh5L06937 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:43:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:41:17 -0800 Subject: RE: English vs American Barleywines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) From: "John C. Tull" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message > From: Steve Casselman Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:46:42 -0800 > Subject: Subject: RE: English vs American Barleywines > > > > Tyce Heldenbrand says > "I don't think > that 60 IBU's is going to be enough to balance the sweetness of a 1.20 > starting gravity English Barleywine." > > Yes I think your right. 60 is too low. Maybe you can suggest some other > number? I'm thinking that the English Barleywine style should reflect > the > barley wines made in England (although that's just my assumption). Does > anyone > know the specs of a English Barleywine that goes to the top end?? Also > for > that matter I'm pretty sure that there are some American Barleywines > that go > over the 100 IBU mark. Does anyone know the highest claimed IBUs for an > American Barleywine??? > > Thanks > > Steve Steve, I do not imagine that this will be the highest claimed IBU for a barleywine, but it is getting up there. Old Crustacean from Rogue Ales in Oregon is a 1.110 gravity beer with 120 IBU's and 38 Lovibond color. Unfortunately, Sierra Nevada does not list their hopping rate on Bigfoot Barleywine. John Tull --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from woodsprite.com ([66.75.1.117]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4710421138 for judge`at`synchro.com; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:21:53 -0500 Received: (from hollen`at`localhost) by woodsprite.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0NJLKF01885; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:21:20 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Americas Finest City From: Dion Hollenbeck Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Date: 23 Jan 2002 11:20:18 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message >> Tyce writes: Tyce> Lyle, Tyce> Americas Finest City = San Diego, CA. There is none other America's Tyce> Finest City. Tyce> Tyce Heldenbrand Tyce> tyce.heldenbrand`at`wfinet.com Sorry, I had a brain fart when I sent out the competition notice. The city was on the postcards that went out to all So. Cal. judges. Yes, both the AHANHC Southwest Regionals and America's Finest City Homebrew Competition are in San Diego. dion -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen`at`woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen --Message_Part_SYNC472142141C-- --Next_Part_SYNC472142141C--