Subject: Digest for the period 12/31/01 - 1/1/02 Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:01:26 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC4169414438" --Next_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- New Years Challenge (Dave Sapsis) Re: Digest for the period 12/24/01 - 12/25/01 (OudBruin`at`aol.com) A history of the BJCP and AHA "split" is as near as the JudgeNet Archives.... (Sean) --Next_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC4169414438" --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC41074130FA for judge`at`synchro.com; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:41:26 -0500 Received: from 1cust239.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net ([63.23.15.239] helo=dsapsislp2) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16KMXz-0007fi-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:41:24 -0800 Message-ID: <002001c19063$e2fa48a0$440f173f`at`dsapsislp2> From: "Dave Sapsis" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: New Years Challenge Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:24:44 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Good folks, While tempted, I will stay out of the AHA/BJCP pissing contest. Its been windy around the Central Valley lately, and I have new shoes. However, MLR2390`at`aol.com (what's your name bro?; Where you at?) gives us: >For Xmas, a friend gave me a six-pack of Red Tail Ale. Every single one >exhibited signs of bacterial contamination. She loves this ale and yet the >one she gave me at her house was contaminated. Is America going Belgian? >Or do we need to do more education? And how to you say "Thanks for the beer; >I dumped it?" in the proper holiday spirit? While I have no reason to doubt the voracity of the comment about infection, I'd like to point out that "infection" is not a flavor/symptom, its a cause. The syllogism linking infection to Belgian beers seems to lack logic, or at the very least clarity. So....what exactly were the "signs of bacterial infection"? Scoresheets that say "infected" without giving any clue as to what drove that finding are amongst the worst one can find. I understand that wasn't really the gist of your post (ie, how to be diplomatic when receiving funky presents) but this is a beer judge forum after all. Here is a challenge for all well-minded beer judges out there. Sometime in 2002 take the time to do some objective testing of your palate. This requires someone to administer the test, but by all means get a group of folks together and test a bunch of palates all at once (talk about efficiency!). Do a triangle test with Bud and Coors. Or do the same with fresh and accelerated old Budvar; add lactic to 2 beers and acetic to one. Skunk one of three. Get a bunch of experienced judges together and evaluate some homebrews blind, fill out scoresheets as detailed as you can muster, and as objectively as possible compare your comments to others in an open dialog about what you sensed and how you scored. You get the idea. While it may seem trite, look within for education, as there is no better place to start. --dave sapsis, sacramento, ca --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.164]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4136413B62 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:46:34 -0500 Received: from OudBruin`at`aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id u.57.4338e6f (25715) for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:46:29 -0500 (EST) From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: <57.4338e6f.2960e535`at`aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:46:29 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 12/24/01 - 12/25/01 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In a message dated 12/25/01 1:07:15 AM, tyler yarbrough writes: << As I understand it, the AHA is a for profit organization, and therefore must remain exclusive to members only. Pay to play, so to speak. Mission: turn a profit. >> Yup the aha makes a profit. So what? I do not find it offensive to pay people like Ray Daniels for the Thankless task of rounding up articles that never materialize(I'm guilty), the people who handle your subscription etc.. Even Charley P desirves a salery- he almost singlehandedly with the help of some stalwertsouls in the begining started the AHA and went far out on a limb to encourage folks to "relax, don't worry- have a homebrew." He could have remained in Physics, and today, most of us would be working our jobs bitchin about having to drink bud or miller. Instead, we now have a vast aray of beers at the local tap, and in the liquor store- Charley works hard at promoting the aha and BEER- Frankly, I find it offensive that some lard ass has the `at` at ##$ to grouse about what the aha makes, many of the influentual members are still volunteers, just like the BJCP. The bottom line is that the AHA really doesn't pay thier staff enough, because there isn't enought money in the kitty. AHA memberships have been falling for the last couple years- and like it or not, people have to earn something for full time work, unless you have a fat trust fund. I suspect that when BJCP membership tasks get to be a more than an 8 hour a week job.. someone is going to want some recompense. don't get me started on the aha vs bjcp on sake issue --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from sm10.texas.rr.com ([24.93.35.222]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC41614142E2 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:14:29 -0500 Received: from Humanoidprime (cs2416743-172.houston.rr.com [24.167.43.172]) by sm10.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id fBVMEOkw028179 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:14:25 -0600 Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" From: "Sean" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: A history of the BJCP and AHA "split" is as near as the JudgeNet Archives.... Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:14:24 -0600 Message-ID: <000101c19248$81f67d80$657ba8c0`at`Humanoidprime> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I'm sorry if I am repeating information that has been posted recently, but a change in email address has caused me to miss a few of the latest issues of the JudgeNet digest (and they're not in the archive yet, either!) Some, if not all of, the history of the AHA pull-out from sponsorship of the BJCP and the ensuing schism can be winnowed from the JudgeNet archives. Start with JudgeNet issue number 995 from 1 February, 1995, available at http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Beer/Threads/Judge/1995/0955 where Karen Barella (Golly I miss her! I'm glad that she's used her position as past President of the AHA for good and not evil!) posts that the AHA is dropping their sponsorship of the BJCP. The rest of the fun can be found in the digests for the rest of 1995 and early 1996, available at: http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Beer/Threads/Judge/ A search engine for the JudgeNet archive can be found at: http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/cgi-bin/dothread allowing for the digests for each year to be searched. Using the term "AHA" for 1995 resulted in 201 hits, which is slightly less that the 251 digests for that year. Further background in why some home brewers mistrust and distrust the AHA can be found in searching the HBD archives. Good search terms might be "board of advisors" or "tax form" or even "Papazian" in the 1996 and 1997 digests. I hope that those who are interested in researching the reasons for the misgivings that some BJCP members still have for the AHA take the time to use these resources. While JudgeNet and the HBD are digests of email messages written by people who may have their own reasons for posting to each digest, I think that the gist of the issues can be found by reading the posts of those people who are on each of the various "sides" of these issues. Cheers, -Wishing all peace and prosperity in the New Year- Sean Lamb --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438-- --Next_Part_SYNC4169414438-- Subject: Digest for the period 12/31/01 - 1/1/02 Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:01:26 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC4169414438" --Next_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- New Years Challenge (Dave Sapsis) Re: Digest for the period 12/24/01 - 12/25/01 (OudBruin`at`aol.com) A history of the BJCP and AHA "split" is as near as the JudgeNet Archives.... (Sean) --Next_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC4169414438" --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC41074130FA for judge`at`synchro.com; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:41:26 -0500 Received: from 1cust239.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net ([63.23.15.239] helo=dsapsislp2) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16KMXz-0007fi-00 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:41:24 -0800 Message-ID: <002001c19063$e2fa48a0$440f173f`at`dsapsislp2> From: "Dave Sapsis" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: New Years Challenge Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:24:44 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Good folks, While tempted, I will stay out of the AHA/BJCP pissing contest. Its been windy around the Central Valley lately, and I have new shoes. However, MLR2390`at`aol.com (what's your name bro?; Where you at?) gives us: >For Xmas, a friend gave me a six-pack of Red Tail Ale. Every single one >exhibited signs of bacterial contamination. She loves this ale and yet the >one she gave me at her house was contaminated. Is America going Belgian? >Or do we need to do more education? And how to you say "Thanks for the beer; >I dumped it?" in the proper holiday spirit? While I have no reason to doubt the voracity of the comment about infection, I'd like to point out that "infection" is not a flavor/symptom, its a cause. The syllogism linking infection to Belgian beers seems to lack logic, or at the very least clarity. So....what exactly were the "signs of bacterial infection"? Scoresheets that say "infected" without giving any clue as to what drove that finding are amongst the worst one can find. I understand that wasn't really the gist of your post (ie, how to be diplomatic when receiving funky presents) but this is a beer judge forum after all. Here is a challenge for all well-minded beer judges out there. Sometime in 2002 take the time to do some objective testing of your palate. This requires someone to administer the test, but by all means get a group of folks together and test a bunch of palates all at once (talk about efficiency!). Do a triangle test with Bud and Coors. Or do the same with fresh and accelerated old Budvar; add lactic to 2 beers and acetic to one. Skunk one of three. Get a bunch of experienced judges together and evaluate some homebrews blind, fill out scoresheets as detailed as you can muster, and as objectively as possible compare your comments to others in an open dialog about what you sensed and how you scored. You get the idea. While it may seem trite, look within for education, as there is no better place to start. --dave sapsis, sacramento, ca --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.164]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC4136413B62 for judge`at`synchro.com; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:46:34 -0500 Received: from OudBruin`at`aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id u.57.4338e6f (25715) for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:46:29 -0500 (EST) From: OudBruin`at`aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com Message-ID: <57.4338e6f.2960e535`at`aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:46:29 EST Subject: Re: Digest for the period 12/24/01 - 12/25/01 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 147 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In a message dated 12/25/01 1:07:15 AM, tyler yarbrough writes: << As I understand it, the AHA is a for profit organization, and therefore must remain exclusive to members only. Pay to play, so to speak. Mission: turn a profit. >> Yup the aha makes a profit. So what? I do not find it offensive to pay people like Ray Daniels for the Thankless task of rounding up articles that never materialize(I'm guilty), the people who handle your subscription etc.. Even Charley P desirves a salery- he almost singlehandedly with the help of some stalwertsouls in the begining started the AHA and went far out on a limb to encourage folks to "relax, don't worry- have a homebrew." He could have remained in Physics, and today, most of us would be working our jobs bitchin about having to drink bud or miller. Instead, we now have a vast aray of beers at the local tap, and in the liquor store- Charley works hard at promoting the aha and BEER- Frankly, I find it offensive that some lard ass has the `at` at ##$ to grouse about what the aha makes, many of the influentual members are still volunteers, just like the BJCP. The bottom line is that the AHA really doesn't pay thier staff enough, because there isn't enought money in the kitty. AHA memberships have been falling for the last couple years- and like it or not, people have to earn something for full time work, unless you have a fat trust fund. I suspect that when BJCP membership tasks get to be a more than an 8 hour a week job.. someone is going to want some recompense. don't get me started on the aha vs bjcp on sake issue --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from sm10.texas.rr.com ([24.93.35.222]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.6.1176) id SYNC41614142E2 for judge`at`synchro.com; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:14:29 -0500 Received: from Humanoidprime (cs2416743-172.houston.rr.com [24.167.43.172]) by sm10.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id fBVMEOkw028179 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:14:25 -0600 Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" From: "Sean" Errors-To: judge-owner`at`synchro.com Sender: judge`at`synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: A history of the BJCP and AHA "split" is as near as the JudgeNet Archives.... Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:14:24 -0600 Message-ID: <000101c19248$81f67d80$657ba8c0`at`Humanoidprime> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I'm sorry if I am repeating information that has been posted recently, but a change in email address has caused me to miss a few of the latest issues of the JudgeNet digest (and they're not in the archive yet, either!) Some, if not all of, the history of the AHA pull-out from sponsorship of the BJCP and the ensuing schism can be winnowed from the JudgeNet archives. Start with JudgeNet issue number 995 from 1 February, 1995, available at http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Beer/Threads/Judge/1995/0955 where Karen Barella (Golly I miss her! I'm glad that she's used her position as past President of the AHA for good and not evil!) posts that the AHA is dropping their sponsorship of the BJCP. The rest of the fun can be found in the digests for the rest of 1995 and early 1996, available at: http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Beer/Threads/Judge/ A search engine for the JudgeNet archive can be found at: http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/cgi-bin/dothread allowing for the digests for each year to be searched. Using the term "AHA" for 1995 resulted in 201 hits, which is slightly less that the 251 digests for that year. Further background in why some home brewers mistrust and distrust the AHA can be found in searching the HBD archives. Good search terms might be "board of advisors" or "tax form" or even "Papazian" in the 1996 and 1997 digests. I hope that those who are interested in researching the reasons for the misgivings that some BJCP members still have for the AHA take the time to use these resources. While JudgeNet and the HBD are digests of email messages written by people who may have their own reasons for posting to each digest, I think that the gist of the issues can be found by reading the posts of those people who are on each of the various "sides" of these issues. Cheers, -Wishing all peace and prosperity in the New Year- Sean Lamb --Message_Part_SYNC4169414438-- --Next_Part_SYNC4169414438--