Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04543 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA07097 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:05:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/29/01 - 8/30/01 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:04:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Forgotten Beer Style in AABC/BJCP Guidelines? (Spencer W Thomas) Various comments (Michael L. Hall) Help needed! (Nathan Moore) RE: Judging Commercial Beer Competitions (Steve Ashton) --Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B" --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu ([141.213.75.22]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11573B025C for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:25 -0400 Received: from hubris.engin.umich.edu (root at hubris.engin.umich.edu [207.75.146.24]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA26248 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (spencer at localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hubris.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA18496 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108281701.NAA18496 at hubris.engin.umich.edu> To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Forgotten Beer Style in AABC/BJCP Guidelines? Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:22 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message This question was posed recently on Oz Craft Brewing, an Australian list like HBD (see http://oz.craftbrewer.org). The national committee refered to is theirs, but they use BJCP guidelines. Any ideas? Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:13:36 -0000 From: richard.pass at anu.edu.au Subject: Forgotten Beer Style in AABC/BJCP Guidelines Looking through the style guidelines for this year's nationals and the BJCP guidelines from which they appear to be derived I can't find anywhere that describes my Carlsberg Elephant Beer clone or even a sub category where the genuine article could fit. Surely there should be a class for strong pale lagers that aren't Helles Bocks. Oktoberfests, Viennas and Marzens clearly don't apply to this style either. For those not familiar with this beer it is a strong (around 6.8% v/V) pale, hoppy lager, with a slight but not predominant malty richness rather than sweetness. Anyone out there on the National committee care to comment? Richard Pass --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov ([128.165.3.1]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11583B0497 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:43:16 -0400 Received: from galt.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.11.4/8.11.4/(ccn-5)) with SMTP id f7SIhE713487; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:43:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15243.58945.934555.302275 at galt.lanl.gov> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:43:13 -0600 (MDT) From: "Michael L. Hall" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Various comments X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I've got a couple of comments on the various issues being discussed -- it's good to see the discussion pick back up. Re: The BJCP Exam I think that memorizing the guidelines is, in general, a good thing. We need to know the styles. Like Al, I think that rough ranges are fine, since the guidelines are "living documents" and are subject to change. Bob Paolino mentions the time constraints (and I agree), but I think the real problem is all the writing. I don't write a lot in my day-to-day life, so my hand gets really tired while I'm cranking out 14 sheets of text (which is what my last exam amounted to). I see two ways of fixing this: - Allowing laptops (which creates lots of problems if the exam isn't open book), or - Moving to an objective test (that is, multiple choice, T/F, matching, etc.). I can hear the caterwauling about objective tests now, but I do believe that you could test the style knowledge just as well, and even more thoroughly, if you gave, say 300 multiple choice questions instead of 10 essay questions. This has been discussed before, and some people have offered examples of very tricky objective questions. While I think that would be good too, I think a large number of straightforward questions could do the job well, and be easier to develop. Think about it -- don't other tests like the SAT and ACT do a good job of testing knowledge? Everybody doesn't get a 1600. Re: Points for judging commercial beers We should get points for judging commercial beers. I think the main point is whether or not the organizers would want to get BJCP sanction and file a report. Especially if they will file a report, give out the points. It is still judging, and it is still beer, and the judges do get experience. That's what counts, in my book. Re: Having the style guidelines with you Before a recent judging, I realized that I could download the style guidelines onto my palmtop and carry it with me. This turned out to be very useful. There are many ways that you could do this, but the way I did it was to download the files from the BJCP site (http://www.bjcp.org/) and convert them with the auxiliary software that you can get with RichReader, so that they can be read with RichReader (http://users.rcn.com/arenamk/RichReader.html , no association, yadda yadda yadda). The RTF format, single-column version worked best. I also got the style chart, the study guide, the BJCP guide, etc. Great things to have with you... Cheers, -Mike ============================================================================ Michael L. Hall, Ph.D. President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers Member, AHA Board of Advisors ============================================================================ Yes my son it is grain, in which any fool can eat. But the Lord has a more divine use in mind. Let us give thanks to the bounty and praise to the beauty and learn about, Beer. -- Friar Tuck --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from web14508.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.224.71]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11613B0632 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:33:41 -0400 Message-ID: <20010828213339.17728.qmail at web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [165.127.8.254] by web14508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:33:39 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:33:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan Moore Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Help needed! To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Sorry, this is not a typical question or request for this list, but I need some help on short notice. There will be a small California Common judging taking place in Dallas on the 15th. An experienced judge was lined up to help a couple rookies, but it fell threw. There will likly be about 7-12 entries only. We would really like to have one experienced judge there to help out. If there is anyway you can, we would really appreciate it. The judging will take place in Grapevine Texas on Sept 15th at 5PM, we will buy you dinner for your trouble. If you can help, please email Tony at tplank at yahoo.com. Thanks, Nathan Moore __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from metints08.metlife.com ([216.163.240.247]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11753B12DC for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:14:13 -0400 Received: from 192.168.35.248 by metints08.metlife.com with SMTP (Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7)); Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:10:29 -0400 X-Server-Uuid: c68c68cc-fda5-11d2-bf12-0008c7db53ea Received: from 192.168.33.251 by metints07.metlife.com with ESMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7)); Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:12:35 -0400 X-Server-Uuid: 734eaade-fd7f-11d2-af45-0008c7db79cc Subject: RE: Judging Commercial Beer Competitions To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Steve Ashton" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:14:26 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MetMtaG4/MetLifeNet/US(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 08/29/2001 07:12:42 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 179211A98213288-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I find it interesting that Jeff took a different angle on the question. The question so far had been should points be awarded when one judges in a commercial competition. Jeff answered the question of if BJCP judges should ever judge in these competitions. I've got two points: Jeff says, "This organization is in no way, shape or form prepared to address what amounts to peoples real-life work. Start affecting the product of people who need to make money and you had better be prepared to devote alot more time and people." Why aren't we prepared? We provide practiced/knowledgable judges who are impartial. Breweries use focus groups regularly, sometimes of employees and sometimes of people off the street. Those peoples' opinions can actually affect the product. I don't believe a competition result ever affected a product. The second thing to consider is the competitions themselves. In the beginning, the GABF used all BJCP judges (well mostly), and the guidelines were one and the same. Nowadays, they are still closely related but with different groupings to accomodate the current marketplace. These days the judges are mostly BJCP anyway. A lot of micros use the BJCP program as a way to educate their staff on tasting/judging. I think that says a lot about the program. So I disagree with Jeff (and probably lots of other people), but for the real question... No I don't think points should be awarded for judging in these competitions. The perks are too great to need another incentive. These competitions often pay for travel, lodging etc. Smaller ones will pay a stipend to cover costs. Save the points for the homebrew competitions where they are needed. But I still think they could be sanctioned. Steve Ashton BJCP Master --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B-- --Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04543 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA07097 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:05:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/29/01 - 8/30/01 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:04:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Forgotten Beer Style in AABC/BJCP Guidelines? (Spencer W Thomas) Various comments (Michael L. Hall) Help needed! (Nathan Moore) RE: Judging Commercial Beer Competitions (Steve Ashton) --Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B" --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu ([141.213.75.22]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11573B025C for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:25 -0400 Received: from hubris.engin.umich.edu (root at hubris.engin.umich.edu [207.75.146.24]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA26248 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (spencer at localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hubris.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA18496 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108281701.NAA18496 at hubris.engin.umich.edu> To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Forgotten Beer Style in AABC/BJCP Guidelines? Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:01:22 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message This question was posed recently on Oz Craft Brewing, an Australian list like HBD (see http://oz.craftbrewer.org). The national committee refered to is theirs, but they use BJCP guidelines. Any ideas? Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:13:36 -0000 From: richard.pass at anu.edu.au Subject: Forgotten Beer Style in AABC/BJCP Guidelines Looking through the style guidelines for this year's nationals and the BJCP guidelines from which they appear to be derived I can't find anywhere that describes my Carlsberg Elephant Beer clone or even a sub category where the genuine article could fit. Surely there should be a class for strong pale lagers that aren't Helles Bocks. Oktoberfests, Viennas and Marzens clearly don't apply to this style either. For those not familiar with this beer it is a strong (around 6.8% v/V) pale, hoppy lager, with a slight but not predominant malty richness rather than sweetness. Anyone out there on the National committee care to comment? Richard Pass --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov ([128.165.3.1]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11583B0497 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:43:16 -0400 Received: from galt.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.11.4/8.11.4/(ccn-5)) with SMTP id f7SIhE713487; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:43:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15243.58945.934555.302275 at galt.lanl.gov> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:43:13 -0600 (MDT) From: "Michael L. Hall" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Various comments X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I've got a couple of comments on the various issues being discussed -- it's good to see the discussion pick back up. Re: The BJCP Exam I think that memorizing the guidelines is, in general, a good thing. We need to know the styles. Like Al, I think that rough ranges are fine, since the guidelines are "living documents" and are subject to change. Bob Paolino mentions the time constraints (and I agree), but I think the real problem is all the writing. I don't write a lot in my day-to-day life, so my hand gets really tired while I'm cranking out 14 sheets of text (which is what my last exam amounted to). I see two ways of fixing this: - Allowing laptops (which creates lots of problems if the exam isn't open book), or - Moving to an objective test (that is, multiple choice, T/F, matching, etc.). I can hear the caterwauling about objective tests now, but I do believe that you could test the style knowledge just as well, and even more thoroughly, if you gave, say 300 multiple choice questions instead of 10 essay questions. This has been discussed before, and some people have offered examples of very tricky objective questions. While I think that would be good too, I think a large number of straightforward questions could do the job well, and be easier to develop. Think about it -- don't other tests like the SAT and ACT do a good job of testing knowledge? Everybody doesn't get a 1600. Re: Points for judging commercial beers We should get points for judging commercial beers. I think the main point is whether or not the organizers would want to get BJCP sanction and file a report. Especially if they will file a report, give out the points. It is still judging, and it is still beer, and the judges do get experience. That's what counts, in my book. Re: Having the style guidelines with you Before a recent judging, I realized that I could download the style guidelines onto my palmtop and carry it with me. This turned out to be very useful. There are many ways that you could do this, but the way I did it was to download the files from the BJCP site (http://www.bjcp.org/) and convert them with the auxiliary software that you can get with RichReader, so that they can be read with RichReader (http://users.rcn.com/arenamk/RichReader.html , no association, yadda yadda yadda). The RTF format, single-column version worked best. I also got the style chart, the study guide, the BJCP guide, etc. Great things to have with you... Cheers, -Mike ============================================================================ Michael L. Hall, Ph.D. President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers Member, AHA Board of Advisors ============================================================================ Yes my son it is grain, in which any fool can eat. But the Lord has a more divine use in mind. Let us give thanks to the bounty and praise to the beauty and learn about, Beer. -- Friar Tuck --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from web14508.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.224.71]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11613B0632 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:33:41 -0400 Message-ID: <20010828213339.17728.qmail at web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [165.127.8.254] by web14508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:33:39 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:33:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan Moore Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Help needed! To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Sorry, this is not a typical question or request for this list, but I need some help on short notice. There will be a small California Common judging taking place in Dallas on the 15th. An experienced judge was lined up to help a couple rookies, but it fell threw. There will likly be about 7-12 entries only. We would really like to have one experienced judge there to help out. If there is anyway you can, we would really appreciate it. The judging will take place in Grapevine Texas on Sept 15th at 5PM, we will buy you dinner for your trouble. If you can help, please email Tony at tplank at yahoo.com. Thanks, Nathan Moore __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from metints08.metlife.com ([216.163.240.247]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC11753B12DC for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:14:13 -0400 Received: from 192.168.35.248 by metints08.metlife.com with SMTP (Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7)); Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:10:29 -0400 X-Server-Uuid: c68c68cc-fda5-11d2-bf12-0008c7db53ea Received: from 192.168.33.251 by metints07.metlife.com with ESMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v4.7)); Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:12:35 -0400 X-Server-Uuid: 734eaade-fd7f-11d2-af45-0008c7db79cc Subject: RE: Judging Commercial Beer Competitions To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Steve Ashton" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:14:26 -0400 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MetMtaG4/MetLifeNet/US(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 08/29/2001 07:12:42 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 179211A98213288-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I find it interesting that Jeff took a different angle on the question. The question so far had been should points be awarded when one judges in a commercial competition. Jeff answered the question of if BJCP judges should ever judge in these competitions. I've got two points: Jeff says, "This organization is in no way, shape or form prepared to address what amounts to peoples real-life work. Start affecting the product of people who need to make money and you had better be prepared to devote alot more time and people." Why aren't we prepared? We provide practiced/knowledgable judges who are impartial. Breweries use focus groups regularly, sometimes of employees and sometimes of people off the street. Those peoples' opinions can actually affect the product. I don't believe a competition result ever affected a product. The second thing to consider is the competitions themselves. In the beginning, the GABF used all BJCP judges (well mostly), and the guidelines were one and the same. Nowadays, they are still closely related but with different groupings to accomodate the current marketplace. These days the judges are mostly BJCP anyway. A lot of micros use the BJCP program as a way to educate their staff on tasting/judging. I think that says a lot about the program. So I disagree with Jeff (and probably lots of other people), but for the real question... No I don't think points should be awarded for judging in these competitions. The perks are too great to need another incentive. These competitions often pay for travel, lodging etc. Smaller ones will pay a stipend to cover costs. Save the points for the homebrew competitions where they are needed. But I still think they could be sanctioned. Steve Ashton BJCP Master --Message_Part_SYNC11933B231B-- --Next_Part_SYNC11933B231B--