Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA14946 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA20641 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:03:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/24/01 - 8/25/01 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:01:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 (Drew Beechum) Change in Digest? (Houseman, David L) Re: Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 (Leo Koster) --Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2" --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mail.disney.com ([204.128.192.15]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10503AC173 for judge at synchro.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:41:41 -0400 Received: from pain10.corp.disney.com (root at pain10.corp.disney.com [153.7.110.100]) by mail.disney.com (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with SMTP id f7O6eDe06290 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ford.wdi.disney.com by pain.corp.disney.com with ESMTP for judge at synchro.com; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:42:06 -0700 Received: from nufat.rd.wdi.disney.com (nufat [206.16.11.70]) by ford.wdi.disney.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/D1) with ESMTP id XAA04992 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mumbo.rd.wdi.disney.com (mp [255.255.255.255]) by nufat.rd.wdi.disney.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA1150533519 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from drew at localhost) by mumbo.rd.wdi.disney.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id XAA06910; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:40:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <15237.63219.514190.804183 at mumbo.rd.wdi.disney.com> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Beechum Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Now Jay and I have been known to disagree from time to time and this will have to be another example. Well, kinda. 1) Should points be awarded for a competition? If it's a competition with a focus on actually looking at beers in style categories, then by all means. The problem is that most of the pro competitions boil down to a BOS format across the entire entry field with no real sense of style organization. 2) I really don't see what the purpose in restricting the BJCP's activities to homebrew/amatuer brewing. At the end of the day don't we all serve as beer evangelists? Everytime I'm out drinking I try and explain to people who think being a beer judge/brewer is a drunken paradise why we study and judge and brew and taste. Does our knowledge not apply to professional beer or does it become useless [or perhaps too academic] when the beer is brewed in larger than a barrel size? And I've never met a homebrewer/judge that deserved to have any of their thoughts and sancticty mixed in the same sentence. 3) Commercial beers not applying to style. Well, hell.. how many homebrewed Light Ales stay within style? Every cream ale that made it to the AHA Finals was overhopped to an aggressive degree. How many of us have entered beers that were too alcoholic, too hoppy, too something for the style we thought would like to make if it just had more oomph? 4) If we can get into this competitions then you can dink a miller lite "pils" or a non-Koelsch Koelsch to your hearts desire.=20 5) If a competition wants to BJCP sanctioned.. then they can be. The BJCP (and it's mission) would get far more exposure to the outside world if it was in places where the general populace saw it's letters. Right now by sticking to the homebrew competitions the only people hwo know about it are homebrewers. As for the negativity that some people choose to emote. That's their world outlook. What harm does it bring? Why shouldn't someone be able to lash on a quote like, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" in addition to the usual "Take me to your lager" type comments we see? -- Drew > From: JayAnkeney at aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:03:26 EDT > Subject: Re: Digest for the period 8/22/01 - 8/23/01 >=20 > In a message dated 8/22/01 10:08:11 PM, judge at synchro.com writes: >=20 > << Should the BJCP award > judge points for events that aren't sanctioned? >> >=20 > This is a no-brainer. Of course not!! >=20 > Commercial beers often deviate from any recognized style guidelines=20= > despite=20 > the arbitrary names their marketers choose to put on the labels.=20 > Miller Lite=3D20 > claims to be a classic Pilsner. Do you want to judge it as such? How= =20 > many=20 > "Porters" can you name that are brewed with lager yeast? And there=20= > are very=20 > few domestically brewed commercial K=F6lsch offerings, even from man= y=20 > micro-breweries, that deserve that appellation. >=20 > Let's maintain the sanctity of our dedication to amateur brewing. We= =20 > should=20 > afford those who want to advance through the ranks of the BJCP the=20= > opportunity of gaining judging points by earning the privilege=20 > through=20 > testing their pallets under consistent evaluation conditions. And,=20= > equally=20 > important, by supporting BJCP sanctioned competitions. >=20 > The very suggestion that the idea of awarding points to commercial=20= > competit > ions should be considered is a disturbing deviation from the whole=20= > purpose of=20 > the BJCP. And the idea that the impetus against expanding the=20 > awarding of=20 > points is "the fact the sanctioned competitions pay a fee to the=20 > BJCP" is=20 > more than cynical. It betrays an understanding of the true value of=20= > the=20 > mission of the dedicated people behind this unique organization. >=20 > Jay Ankeney >=20 >=20 > BTW, how do you enhance the Digest reading experience by including a= =20 > line=20 > such as ""Life is nothing if not an ongoing suckfest of trade-offs."= =20 > Is that=3D20 > kind of vacuous negativity supposed to be profound? --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from eamail1-out.unisys.com ([192.61.61.99]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10563AC1E7 for judge at synchro.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:24:49 -0400 Received: from us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com (us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com [192.61.146.102]) by eamail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21209 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:23:02 GMT Received: by us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:24:07 -0500 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF98146646 at USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Change in Digest? Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:24:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Did the lightning cause some other internal change to the Judge Digest? Whereas I'd always received JudgeNet without difficulty, I now find that our server has taken the mail, placed it into a Text file and pasted that along to me with the following message: "This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set." What character set change occurred? Can we return to normal space? Dave --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from smtp-out.netins.net ([167.142.225.21]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10583AC2D7 for judge at synchro.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:59:28 -0400 Received: from netins.net (desm-26-44.dialup.netins.net [167.142.22.173]) by smtp-out.netins.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21384 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:58:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3B866B3F.E69358ED at netins.net> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:57:04 -0500 From: Leo Koster Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message It seems to me that both threads in these last issues are at least in part connected. It boils down to increasing professionalism, knowledge and experience. Memorizing style guides is like memorizing the multiplication tables. You will always hear the kids' the argument that "I will always have a calculator". They also can't make change for a big mac if the cash register is broke. Is that what we want? The style guide stats have been my downfall, but one purpose of the BJCP is to increase awareness, interest, and knowledge of beer styles. This means not so much at competitions because everyone is there because they already have the interst and desire to participate. Where this is needed is at the pub, at work, or at family gatherings. I have heard judges in a social setting (myself included) wax knowingly about beer to others only to realize later that the information being disseminated was incorrect. I usually don't have a style guide handy, although I keep one in the car. The reason I do this is because I have a very hard time remembering gravities and other stats and I like to be accurate. Exposure over and over to these stats is the only way I can retain them for more than a few days This brings me to the second part, I believe that any chance you get to practice the craft is a good chance. Any time you need to be concise and accurate about your beer evaluations in front of other judges is good experience and helps you remember beer styles. It also gives you the confidence to know Centennial / Cascades from East Kent Goldings and stick to your guns (sorry Mark). If a pro brewing event wants to register with the BJCP, I think they should be allowed and that judges should be awarded points. As for the argument that the pro styles are non conformist, at every contest you can find a porter that was really a brown ale, a fruity diacetyl laden lager or the need to judge a cherry mocha lager fermented with a Weizen yeast. They are judged by the standards of the style under which they were submitted. Leo Koster --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2-- --Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA14946 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA20641 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:03:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/24/01 - 8/25/01 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:01:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 (Drew Beechum) Change in Digest? (Houseman, David L) Re: Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 (Leo Koster) --Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2" --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mail.disney.com ([204.128.192.15]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10503AC173 for judge at synchro.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:41:41 -0400 Received: from pain10.corp.disney.com (root at pain10.corp.disney.com [153.7.110.100]) by mail.disney.com (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with SMTP id f7O6eDe06290 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ford.wdi.disney.com by pain.corp.disney.com with ESMTP for judge at synchro.com; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:42:06 -0700 Received: from nufat.rd.wdi.disney.com (nufat [206.16.11.70]) by ford.wdi.disney.com (8.9.1/8.9.1/D1) with ESMTP id XAA04992 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mumbo.rd.wdi.disney.com (mp [255.255.255.255]) by nufat.rd.wdi.disney.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA1150533519 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from drew at localhost) by mumbo.rd.wdi.disney.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id XAA06910; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:40:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <15237.63219.514190.804183 at mumbo.rd.wdi.disney.com> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Beechum Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Now Jay and I have been known to disagree from time to time and this will have to be another example. Well, kinda. 1) Should points be awarded for a competition? If it's a competition with a focus on actually looking at beers in style categories, then by all means. The problem is that most of the pro competitions boil down to a BOS format across the entire entry field with no real sense of style organization. 2) I really don't see what the purpose in restricting the BJCP's activities to homebrew/amatuer brewing. At the end of the day don't we all serve as beer evangelists? Everytime I'm out drinking I try and explain to people who think being a beer judge/brewer is a drunken paradise why we study and judge and brew and taste. Does our knowledge not apply to professional beer or does it become useless [or perhaps too academic] when the beer is brewed in larger than a barrel size? And I've never met a homebrewer/judge that deserved to have any of their thoughts and sancticty mixed in the same sentence. 3) Commercial beers not applying to style. Well, hell.. how many homebrewed Light Ales stay within style? Every cream ale that made it to the AHA Finals was overhopped to an aggressive degree. How many of us have entered beers that were too alcoholic, too hoppy, too something for the style we thought would like to make if it just had more oomph? 4) If we can get into this competitions then you can dink a miller lite "pils" or a non-Koelsch Koelsch to your hearts desire.=20 5) If a competition wants to BJCP sanctioned.. then they can be. The BJCP (and it's mission) would get far more exposure to the outside world if it was in places where the general populace saw it's letters. Right now by sticking to the homebrew competitions the only people hwo know about it are homebrewers. As for the negativity that some people choose to emote. That's their world outlook. What harm does it bring? Why shouldn't someone be able to lash on a quote like, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" in addition to the usual "Take me to your lager" type comments we see? -- Drew > From: JayAnkeney at aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:03:26 EDT > Subject: Re: Digest for the period 8/22/01 - 8/23/01 >=20 > In a message dated 8/22/01 10:08:11 PM, judge at synchro.com writes: >=20 > << Should the BJCP award > judge points for events that aren't sanctioned? >> >=20 > This is a no-brainer. Of course not!! >=20 > Commercial beers often deviate from any recognized style guidelines=20= > despite=20 > the arbitrary names their marketers choose to put on the labels.=20 > Miller Lite=3D20 > claims to be a classic Pilsner. Do you want to judge it as such? How= =20 > many=20 > "Porters" can you name that are brewed with lager yeast? And there=20= > are very=20 > few domestically brewed commercial K=F6lsch offerings, even from man= y=20 > micro-breweries, that deserve that appellation. >=20 > Let's maintain the sanctity of our dedication to amateur brewing. We= =20 > should=20 > afford those who want to advance through the ranks of the BJCP the=20= > opportunity of gaining judging points by earning the privilege=20 > through=20 > testing their pallets under consistent evaluation conditions. And,=20= > equally=20 > important, by supporting BJCP sanctioned competitions. >=20 > The very suggestion that the idea of awarding points to commercial=20= > competit > ions should be considered is a disturbing deviation from the whole=20= > purpose of=20 > the BJCP. And the idea that the impetus against expanding the=20 > awarding of=20 > points is "the fact the sanctioned competitions pay a fee to the=20 > BJCP" is=20 > more than cynical. It betrays an understanding of the true value of=20= > the=20 > mission of the dedicated people behind this unique organization. >=20 > Jay Ankeney >=20 >=20 > BTW, how do you enhance the Digest reading experience by including a= =20 > line=20 > such as ""Life is nothing if not an ongoing suckfest of trade-offs."= =20 > Is that=3D20 > kind of vacuous negativity supposed to be profound? --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from eamail1-out.unisys.com ([192.61.61.99]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10563AC1E7 for judge at synchro.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:24:49 -0400 Received: from us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com (us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com [192.61.146.102]) by eamail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21209 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:23:02 GMT Received: by us-ea-gtwy-6.ea.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:24:07 -0500 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF98146646 at USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Change in Digest? Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:24:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Did the lightning cause some other internal change to the Judge Digest? Whereas I'd always received JudgeNet without difficulty, I now find that our server has taken the mail, placed it into a Text file and pasted that along to me with the following message: "This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet Service. To view the original message content, open the attached message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original character set." What character set change occurred? Can we return to normal space? Dave --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from smtp-out.netins.net ([167.142.225.21]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10583AC2D7 for judge at synchro.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:59:28 -0400 Received: from netins.net (desm-26-44.dialup.netins.net [167.142.22.173]) by smtp-out.netins.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21384 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:58:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3B866B3F.E69358ED at netins.net> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:57:04 -0500 From: Leo Koster Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Digest for the period 8/23/01 - 8/24/01 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message It seems to me that both threads in these last issues are at least in part connected. It boils down to increasing professionalism, knowledge and experience. Memorizing style guides is like memorizing the multiplication tables. You will always hear the kids' the argument that "I will always have a calculator". They also can't make change for a big mac if the cash register is broke. Is that what we want? The style guide stats have been my downfall, but one purpose of the BJCP is to increase awareness, interest, and knowledge of beer styles. This means not so much at competitions because everyone is there because they already have the interst and desire to participate. Where this is needed is at the pub, at work, or at family gatherings. I have heard judges in a social setting (myself included) wax knowingly about beer to others only to realize later that the information being disseminated was incorrect. I usually don't have a style guide handy, although I keep one in the car. The reason I do this is because I have a very hard time remembering gravities and other stats and I like to be accurate. Exposure over and over to these stats is the only way I can retain them for more than a few days This brings me to the second part, I believe that any chance you get to practice the craft is a good chance. Any time you need to be concise and accurate about your beer evaluations in front of other judges is good experience and helps you remember beer styles. It also gives you the confidence to know Centennial / Cascades from East Kent Goldings and stick to your guns (sorry Mark). If a pro brewing event wants to register with the BJCP, I think they should be allowed and that judges should be awarded points. As for the argument that the pro styles are non conformist, at every contest you can find a porter that was really a brown ale, a fruity diacetyl laden lager or the need to judge a cherry mocha lager fermented with a Weizen yeast. They are judged by the standards of the style under which they were submitted. Leo Koster --Message_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2-- --Next_Part_SYNC10733AC8E2--