Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.21]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA25941 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA18052 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:07:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/22/01 - 8/23/01 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:04:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RE:Heretical Suggestion (Houseman, David L) Re: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers (Joel Plutchak) Commercial beer judging (my $.02) (Tyler Yarbrough) Competition Announcement: 6th Dayton Beerfest Sept 15 (Gordon Strong) Dion's Heretical Suggestion (Eric R. Theiner) Call for Judges - BONES BASH (Bill Wible) RE: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers (Dwight Bradish) no heresy here (Dave Sapsis) Beer in Greece (Chuck Cox) --Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E" --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from eamail1-out.unisys.com ([192.61.61.99]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10083A8F65 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:43:37 -0400 Received: from us-ea-gtwy-7.ea.unisys.com (us-ea-gtwy-7.ea.unisys.com [192.61.145.102]) by eamail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20564 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:41:55 GMT Received: by us-ea-gtwy-7.ea.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:42:52 -0500 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF980E9F1E at USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE:Heretical Suggestion Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:39:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I sympathize with Dion's question of rote memorization of facts when the details of style specifics are available to us in competitions. For some of us, memory isn't as easy as it once was. However, we aren't always in competitions when the knowledge is needed. We represent the BJCP whenever people know we're beer judges and there's an expectation of expertise that we should support. And while I'll admit that I haven't retained all the spec numbers I memorized for my retake of the exam, some percentage of it stuck. Continually refreshing this knowledge with grading exams, reading about beers, an formulating recipes all help to reinforce these facts in long term memory. And it's way cool to be able to site the facts in a BOS round without the aid of the style guide ;-) Dave Houseman --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu ([141.142.22.64]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10103A90B1 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:21:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (plutchak at localhost) by brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32337 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:21:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu: plutchak owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:21:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Joel Plutchak Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In Judge Digest #3745.74, Dave Houseman poses many questions, which I've taken the liberty to condense down to one which may or may not accurately reflect his intent: Should the BJCP award judge points for events that aren't sanctioned? Cynically, the main difference I see between Dave's commercial events and homebrew competitions are the fact the sanctioned competitions pay a fee to the BJCP and thereby implicitly agree to a few minor requirements. I've judged a few competitions that weren't sanctioned yet were run in the same manner and as well as sanctioned competitions. Should we extend the same courtesy of judge points for those competitions? I'm also slated to teach a short course on brewing and beer appreciation for a local recreation department; should that kind of activity which "encourages the educational advancement of people interested in the evaluation of beer and related brewed products" also be subject to BJCP points? Where do we draw the line? I don't pretend to know the answer, but while the stated goals of the BJCP seem to mesh with activities outside homebrew competitions, I admit to feeling vaguely uneasy about having the BJCP award points for any non-homebrew-competition activities. -- Joel Plutchak "Life is nothing if not an ongoing suckfest of trade-offs." - Beatleboy Jay --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.240]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10113A945E for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:04:02 -0400 Received: from pacbell.net ([63.198.47.148]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GIH002PB5U39G at mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:57:32 -0700 From: Tyler Yarbrough Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Commercial beer judging (my $.02) To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-id: <3B83C85C.9584C12F at pacbell.net> Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD PBI-NC461 (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I am a National BJCP judge, and have had a little experience judging commercial beers at the California State Fair. If you're looking for a vote, David, I'm with you on the issue. The BJCP should count experience judging commercial beer competitions the same as homebrew. Really, BJCP is about development of experienced judges. Judging commercial beers is a real eye-opening experience, in my opinion! I think everyone who considers themselves a juge should do it, if they can. I suspect it is difficult for the BJCP to really administer standards for commercial judging, and that's why points aren't generally awarded. But to me, that is an issue of less importance than subjecting the judging palate to a broader range of beer, and a broader range of judging standards. cheers\_/ Tyler Yarbrough --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10133A988F for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:07:20 -0400 Received: from buzzcut (pool-63.49.209.233.troy.grid.net [63.49.209.233]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01990 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006c01c12b2c$5db80160$e9d1313f at compaq.com> From: "Gordon Strong" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Competition Announcement: 6th Dayton Beerfest Sept 15 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:03:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message The 6th Dayton (Ohio) Beerfest will be held on September 15th. If anyone would like to enter or help judge, please visit our web site at http://hbd.org/draft/daybeerfest.html. Competition entry and judge registration is all online. All 1999 BJCP categories accepted. I will be giving a BJCP exam the evening before the competition. If anyone is interested in taking it, please get in touch with me. Gordon Strong Dayton Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists strongg at earthlink.net --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mail.skantech.com ([208.12.236.243]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10153A9A3F for Judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:44:24 -0400 Received: from c7p5q9.skantech.com [208.12.236.46] by mail.skantech.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AB82169D012E; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:44:02 -0400 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010822091404.00a304b0 at skantech.net> X-Sender: logic at skantech.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:28:43 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Eric R. Theiner" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Dion's Heretical Suggestion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Not Memorize the Style Guidelines? ARE YOU MAD!?!?!? Seriously, I have thought about this myself. In my core chemical engineering courses, it was simply unheard of to take an exam that was not open book-- especially at the upper levels. If I didn't know what I was doing or I didn't know the course work (and as a regular college kid, that happened a few times), no book in the world could help me. Similarly, it seems that the point of being a judge is the skill in evaluation and the knowledge of what precedes the style. History and how that impacts the beer, brewing methods, off-flavors and what causes them, and on and on-- these are the things that put us in a different category from beer aficionados. These are the things that we must know. The style guidelines and specific numbers is easy information available at any competition, so I don't see why those things are worthy of memorization. (Similarly, I can't recall a single heat capacity except for water (1, 'cos it's the standard). I have my Perry's Handbook on the shelf in easy reach; I don't need to know those numbers.) NOTE: JudgeNet is a place for discussion, but not for Judge input. If you really want to make a change, Dion, contact your regional rep. Rick Theiner --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from fish.vf.pond.com ([198.69.82.4]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10173A9B8D for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:03:40 -0400 Received: from pond.com (wanda.vf.pond.com [198.69.82.2]) by fish.vf.pond.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27029 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:03:15 -0400 Received: from [205.160.4.68] (ascend2-3.vf.pond.com [205.160.4.68]) by pond.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12523 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:07:52 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:02:28 -0400 Subject: Call for Judges - BONES BASH From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I am re-posting this because several people told me that they didn't get it. It was originally posted around the time of the lightning strike. -------------------------------- Brew By You and the Brewers Of the North East Section (BONES) present the BONES BASH, (Bones Annual Show at Halloween), a new annual competition, registered with the BJCP. The BONES BASH will also be the first leg of the 2002 Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year. We are pleased to announce that this first ever competition by BONES and Brew By You will be held on Saturday, October 20, 2001 at the Victory Brewing Company, Downingtown, PA. For directions and information, visit: http://www.victorybeer.com Competition Guidelines and Entry Requirements: - Bones Bash is open to all homebrewers. All brews entered must be non-commercial in nature, and produced by amateur brewers at home. - This competition is open to all categories and styles, with an added specialty category in the spirit of Halloween, known as =B3The Monster Mash=B2. The only requirement for entry into the Monster Mash is that the beer have an original gravity of at least 1.090. All styles are welcome, experimental brews are encouraged. - Entries will be accepted from 10/1/2001 to 10/14/2001. - Judges and stewards attending the competition may bring their entries, provided they submit the paperwork and pay in advance. Plan to arrive early to register. - Submit two (2) bottles for judging. - Bottles submitted may be 10-16 ounces in size, green or brown glass, and must be free of any labels, raised designs, etched logos, or other identifying marks. Grolsch style bottles will not be accepted. - A completed entry form must be submitted with each entry. - A bottle label must be attached to each bottle with a rubber band. No glue or tape, please. - The entry fee is $5 for the first entry, $4 for each additional entry submitted with the first. Monster Mash entries are $5 each, are handled separately, and do not count as a first entry. - Entries which do not meet these requirements may be disqualified. - It is the responsibility of the brewer to determine the appropriate category for each entry. - Feedback should be the main purpose of this or any other competition. Here is an opportunity to have your beer evaluated by qualified BJCP registered beer judges. Scoresheets will be returned after the competition. If you will not be attending, please include a stamped, self addressed envelope. - Categories and subcategories may be combined at judging, according to the number of entries. If this should occur, beers will still be judged according to the category/subcategory entered. - The Monster Mash is its own special category, and will not be combined with any other category. If fewer than 5 entries are submitted, no prizes or ribbons will be awarded, and entry fees will be refunded. - Any disputes arising from this competition will be settled by the competition organizers. Their decision will be final. - Award winners will earn points toward the Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year.=20 If you would like to be a judge or steward, please contact Bill Wible at (215) 335-2739, or bill at brewbyyou.net. Thanks! Bill Wible -------------------------- Brew By You =20 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-2739 (PA) 888-542-2739 (Outside PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from saclink3.csus.edu ([130.86.82.3]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10183A9C75 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:44:32 -0400 Received: from oemcomputer (dialup1-180.csus.edu) by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA076870249; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:44:09 -0700 From: "Dwight Bradish" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:48:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002201c12a3c$88dd66a0$d75179a5 at trhousemdlrem> X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message We use BJCP style guidelines in the 2 commercial competitions I am registrar of. One being the West Coast Brewers Festival Competition, which I run, and the other being the California Brewers Festival Competition. I would love to give points for them, we utilize mostly BJCP judges for these two events. Dwight -----Original Message----- From: judge at synchro.com [mailto:judge at synchro.com]On Behalf Of David Houseman Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:27 AM To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers I can't recall seeing the message below on JudgeNet. Perhaps it made it prior to the lightning strike and I missed it, but if not, I'm reposting in order to get feedback from judges: A several weekends ago Scott Bickham and I were among the judges judging a commercial competition at State College, PA. Actually a very nice little event with some wonderful beer. The question again came up about BJCP judges receiving judging credits for judging such events. Since I've had the opportunity to judge some of these, of course I'm biased. But other BJCP judges do participate and I was asked as the regional rep to bring this to the BJCP board for discussion. The BJCP board is discussing the issue but thought that perhaps this should be placed before the members for their feedback and opinions. Should the BJCP just limit recognition for judging only to homebrew events? Or set some minimal standards for commercial events as well? Frankly some of the commercial judging events are much better run than many of the homebrew events. Some do require feedback to the entrant; some do not. One possibility as I see it would be for the BJCP to publish a list of criteria, which might include the use of the BJCP Style Guidelines (or something substantially similar equivalent) as objective judging criteria, that a commercial competition must adhere to in order to have BJCP members who judge receive experience point credit. Having judged some commercial events the only style compromises I've seen are the inclusion of styles that reflected what was being brewed commercially, like Lite Rye or Caribbean Lager (40% cane sugar). But then we did the same by including the styles being brewed by homebrewers and eliminating those which really aren't popular. Not all the commercial competitions are sponsored by the commercial enterprises. A number of the smaller ones are in fact done with the proceeds going to charity. There is a range of commercial competitions from the GABF, WBC and the GBBF to small state fairs and regional or state competitions. The quality of the tasters in the GABF is outstanding. Any BJCP judge who judges there has the opportunity to learn from the best brewers/tasters of places like A-B and Coors. These guys don't pull their punches and don't compromise. While some of us may not care for their marketing, their technical people are excellent. A high percentage of the judges at the GABF are in fact BJCP judges. While they are there in their capacity as brewers or writers or owners, many are in fact BJCP judges. Should they not receive experience point credit for their judging experiences. Every judging experience can be nothing but beneficial. There aren't many of us that haven't judged a competition or three that the local club or organization hasn't placed some strange style on that particular competition's style guidelines. The Strange and Scary Homebrew Competition is an example. The Schukyll Dark style used at some local Philly competitions. These certainly weren't from any BJCP or AHA guidelines! Yet we judge them. I judged one competition that excluded styles! Just divided the beers by the color they appeared to be in their bottles and tasted for "best" beers. That was a homebrew competition for which the judges received judging credit! The BJCP has the opportunity to ignore the commercial competitions or help to make some of them better. I think the facts support our embracing commercial competition participation by BJCP judges, not discouraging participation. The only competition I've seen that the judging was just on drinkability was a homebrew competition for which the BJCP awarded experience points. The GABF absolutely has style guidelines to which the beers are entered and judged with just the same effort that we do in homebrew competition. We train judges to use their evaluation skills and some events may use BJCP style guidelines and judging forms will others may differ. Nonetheless, skilled judges should be able to adjust and adapt. I'm not suggesting that we sanction or register commercial competitions, but if a commercial competition is held to some (as yet to be defined) standard, then participating BJCP judges would be eligible to received judging experience points for their efforts. . The benefit to us it that it spreads the good word about our skills and experience and gets recognition for the BJCP. So what is the opinion of the BJCP membership? Pros? Cons? Dave Houseman MidAtlantic Representative --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.50]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10193A9D0D for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:14:34 -0400 Received: from dsapsislp2 (1Cust149.tnt2.sacramento2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.219.149]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13551 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000901c12b5f$6d0c61a0$95db113f at dsapsislp2> From: "Dave Sapsis" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: no heresy here Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:07:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Dion raises a very valid point regarding the nature of BJCP exam: this issue of rote memorization for beer style specifications. Here are my thoughts: The exam actually doesn't ask that you *memorize* anything, rather it asks for a comprehensive description about what constitutes the flavor profile of various styles, and how those flavors are realized. The reason is obvious. In addition to being literate about various beer styles, their production, and their historical context, a skillful judge needs to have a clear image in their mind of the marks they are looking for when evaluating a beer -- what are you looking for? Does this sample measure up? Where does it miss? What might be causing that? While one can get an idea of these targets by reading the style guidelines, the better judges already know, certainly in a more comprehensive manner, what is expected. They have developed this sense by reading, tasting, testing, and more controlled tasting. In this sense, the style guidelines are actually better suited for brewers designing recipes and attempting to understand the myriad flavors/aromas that can be had in the beer spectrum. The style guidelines are really no more than one classification system. If the examinee chooses to use different interpretations of a given style than those given in the BJCP guidelines, they are free to do so, but should make an attempt to justify their interpretation. Their is nothing magical nor resolute about these descriptions (although some certainly act as though this were the case)... styles and our impressions change not the least due to changes in goods, practices and public desires. While a basic means to begin forming the foundation of this profile can be had from memorizing the specs, I believe one is better off formulating a clear understanding *in their own words* of what the basics of a style are. It is true that we expect spec numbers (og, IBU's, color) to be given, they need not be exactly those given in the guidelines. We do not typically mark down if one says for ordinary bitter: "approx. 9 Plato, 30 units of bitterness, typically amber in color" because it does not mimic the exact specs given in the guidelines. In some instances the range in specs for a particular style actually emphasize the wide, strange, and somewhat arbitrary definitions that have developed over time (see old ale). The spec numbers do provide a clear benchmark of flavor space that a given beer should occupy, and some of these spaces have fuzzier boundaries than others. But in the case of a question that asks you to compare, say, cream ale, koelsch, and helles, one should be inclined to state that the basic parameter specs are really very similar for all three, and to make a point of describing how and why they actually differ in aroma and flavor. In any case, what we are looking for is an understanding of what one would expect given the style designator. I personally see the availability of the guidelines (and they may be BJCP or they may not) at the table of a panel as a way of simply reminding judges of the benchmarks, and stimulating their preformed understandings and experiences. The best exams are always those that include a fair deal of independent thought. Often, errors of commission ripple through entire sets of exams, where a particular factoid gets regurgitated (e.g., the adamant requirement of peat smoked malt in Scottish ales). Dion, my advice to you is to not attempt rote memorization -- in addition to causing folks to search aimlessly for data bits crammed into remote corners of their brains, it also tends to cloud true understanding and stifle creative, critical thought. Go for the central components (including specs, ingredients, process and flavor profiles) that define styles. Where these are inherently broad, make note of that and offer your own interpretations. It is likely both your exam score and your basic skill will be better off. I welcome others thoughts, --David Sapsis --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net ([24.147.1.144]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10193A9D44 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:26:06 -0400 Received: from salsa.synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f7MNPkm01396; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822191759.00b8ead0 at 192.168.1.100> X-Sender: chuck-synchro at 192.168.1.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:24:38 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Chuck Cox Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Beer in Greece Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Does anyone know where I can find a good beer store in Greece? I need to provision a sailboat for my honeymoon. I could also use any advice about Mediterranean-style stern-in docking. Thanks. -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems Motorsport Computers Hopped/Up Racing Team --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E-- --Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E-- Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.21]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA25941 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA18052 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:07:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 8/22/01 - 8/23/01 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:04:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RE:Heretical Suggestion (Houseman, David L) Re: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers (Joel Plutchak) Commercial beer judging (my $.02) (Tyler Yarbrough) Competition Announcement: 6th Dayton Beerfest Sept 15 (Gordon Strong) Dion's Heretical Suggestion (Eric R. Theiner) Call for Judges - BONES BASH (Bill Wible) RE: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers (Dwight Bradish) no heresy here (Dave Sapsis) Beer in Greece (Chuck Cox) --Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E" --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from eamail1-out.unisys.com ([192.61.61.99]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10083A8F65 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:43:37 -0400 Received: from us-ea-gtwy-7.ea.unisys.com (us-ea-gtwy-7.ea.unisys.com [192.61.145.102]) by eamail1-out.unisys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20564 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:41:55 GMT Received: by us-ea-gtwy-7.ea.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:42:52 -0500 Message-ID: <2AC56C48182B4349AB1906257952AF980E9F1E at USTR-EXCH2.na.uis.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE:Heretical Suggestion Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:39:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I sympathize with Dion's question of rote memorization of facts when the details of style specifics are available to us in competitions. For some of us, memory isn't as easy as it once was. However, we aren't always in competitions when the knowledge is needed. We represent the BJCP whenever people know we're beer judges and there's an expectation of expertise that we should support. And while I'll admit that I haven't retained all the spec numbers I memorized for my retake of the exam, some percentage of it stuck. Continually refreshing this knowledge with grading exams, reading about beers, an formulating recipes all help to reinforce these facts in long term memory. And it's way cool to be able to site the facts in a BOS round without the aid of the style guide ;-) Dave Houseman --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu ([141.142.22.64]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10103A90B1 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:21:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (plutchak at localhost) by brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32337 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:21:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu: plutchak owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:21:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Joel Plutchak Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message In Judge Digest #3745.74, Dave Houseman poses many questions, which I've taken the liberty to condense down to one which may or may not accurately reflect his intent: Should the BJCP award judge points for events that aren't sanctioned? Cynically, the main difference I see between Dave's commercial events and homebrew competitions are the fact the sanctioned competitions pay a fee to the BJCP and thereby implicitly agree to a few minor requirements. I've judged a few competitions that weren't sanctioned yet were run in the same manner and as well as sanctioned competitions. Should we extend the same courtesy of judge points for those competitions? I'm also slated to teach a short course on brewing and beer appreciation for a local recreation department; should that kind of activity which "encourages the educational advancement of people interested in the evaluation of beer and related brewed products" also be subject to BJCP points? Where do we draw the line? I don't pretend to know the answer, but while the stated goals of the BJCP seem to mesh with activities outside homebrew competitions, I admit to feeling vaguely uneasy about having the BJCP award points for any non-homebrew-competition activities. -- Joel Plutchak "Life is nothing if not an ongoing suckfest of trade-offs." - Beatleboy Jay --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.240]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10113A945E for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:04:02 -0400 Received: from pacbell.net ([63.198.47.148]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GIH002PB5U39G at mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:57:32 -0700 From: Tyler Yarbrough Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Commercial beer judging (my $.02) To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-id: <3B83C85C.9584C12F at pacbell.net> Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD PBI-NC461 (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I am a National BJCP judge, and have had a little experience judging commercial beers at the California State Fair. If you're looking for a vote, David, I'm with you on the issue. The BJCP should count experience judging commercial beer competitions the same as homebrew. Really, BJCP is about development of experienced judges. Judging commercial beers is a real eye-opening experience, in my opinion! I think everyone who considers themselves a juge should do it, if they can. I suspect it is difficult for the BJCP to really administer standards for commercial judging, and that's why points aren't generally awarded. But to me, that is an issue of less importance than subjecting the judging palate to a broader range of beer, and a broader range of judging standards. cheers\_/ Tyler Yarbrough --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10133A988F for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:07:20 -0400 Received: from buzzcut (pool-63.49.209.233.troy.grid.net [63.49.209.233]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01990 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006c01c12b2c$5db80160$e9d1313f at compaq.com> From: "Gordon Strong" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Competition Announcement: 6th Dayton Beerfest Sept 15 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:03:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message The 6th Dayton (Ohio) Beerfest will be held on September 15th. If anyone would like to enter or help judge, please visit our web site at http://hbd.org/draft/daybeerfest.html. Competition entry and judge registration is all online. All 1999 BJCP categories accepted. I will be giving a BJCP exam the evening before the competition. If anyone is interested in taking it, please get in touch with me. Gordon Strong Dayton Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists strongg at earthlink.net --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mail.skantech.com ([208.12.236.243]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10153A9A3F for Judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:44:24 -0400 Received: from c7p5q9.skantech.com [208.12.236.46] by mail.skantech.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AB82169D012E; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:44:02 -0400 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010822091404.00a304b0 at skantech.net> X-Sender: logic at skantech.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:28:43 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Eric R. Theiner" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Dion's Heretical Suggestion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Not Memorize the Style Guidelines? ARE YOU MAD!?!?!? Seriously, I have thought about this myself. In my core chemical engineering courses, it was simply unheard of to take an exam that was not open book-- especially at the upper levels. If I didn't know what I was doing or I didn't know the course work (and as a regular college kid, that happened a few times), no book in the world could help me. Similarly, it seems that the point of being a judge is the skill in evaluation and the knowledge of what precedes the style. History and how that impacts the beer, brewing methods, off-flavors and what causes them, and on and on-- these are the things that put us in a different category from beer aficionados. These are the things that we must know. The style guidelines and specific numbers is easy information available at any competition, so I don't see why those things are worthy of memorization. (Similarly, I can't recall a single heat capacity except for water (1, 'cos it's the standard). I have my Perry's Handbook on the shelf in easy reach; I don't need to know those numbers.) NOTE: JudgeNet is a place for discussion, but not for Judge input. If you really want to make a change, Dion, contact your regional rep. Rick Theiner --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from fish.vf.pond.com ([198.69.82.4]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10173A9B8D for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:03:40 -0400 Received: from pond.com (wanda.vf.pond.com [198.69.82.2]) by fish.vf.pond.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27029 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:03:15 -0400 Received: from [205.160.4.68] (ascend2-3.vf.pond.com [205.160.4.68]) by pond.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12523 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:07:52 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:02:28 -0400 Subject: Call for Judges - BONES BASH From: Bill Wible Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I am re-posting this because several people told me that they didn't get it. It was originally posted around the time of the lightning strike. -------------------------------- Brew By You and the Brewers Of the North East Section (BONES) present the BONES BASH, (Bones Annual Show at Halloween), a new annual competition, registered with the BJCP. The BONES BASH will also be the first leg of the 2002 Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year. We are pleased to announce that this first ever competition by BONES and Brew By You will be held on Saturday, October 20, 2001 at the Victory Brewing Company, Downingtown, PA. For directions and information, visit: http://www.victorybeer.com Competition Guidelines and Entry Requirements: - Bones Bash is open to all homebrewers. All brews entered must be non-commercial in nature, and produced by amateur brewers at home. - This competition is open to all categories and styles, with an added specialty category in the spirit of Halloween, known as =B3The Monster Mash=B2. The only requirement for entry into the Monster Mash is that the beer have an original gravity of at least 1.090. All styles are welcome, experimental brews are encouraged. - Entries will be accepted from 10/1/2001 to 10/14/2001. - Judges and stewards attending the competition may bring their entries, provided they submit the paperwork and pay in advance. Plan to arrive early to register. - Submit two (2) bottles for judging. - Bottles submitted may be 10-16 ounces in size, green or brown glass, and must be free of any labels, raised designs, etched logos, or other identifying marks. Grolsch style bottles will not be accepted. - A completed entry form must be submitted with each entry. - A bottle label must be attached to each bottle with a rubber band. No glue or tape, please. - The entry fee is $5 for the first entry, $4 for each additional entry submitted with the first. Monster Mash entries are $5 each, are handled separately, and do not count as a first entry. - Entries which do not meet these requirements may be disqualified. - It is the responsibility of the brewer to determine the appropriate category for each entry. - Feedback should be the main purpose of this or any other competition. Here is an opportunity to have your beer evaluated by qualified BJCP registered beer judges. Scoresheets will be returned after the competition. If you will not be attending, please include a stamped, self addressed envelope. - Categories and subcategories may be combined at judging, according to the number of entries. If this should occur, beers will still be judged according to the category/subcategory entered. - The Monster Mash is its own special category, and will not be combined with any other category. If fewer than 5 entries are submitted, no prizes or ribbons will be awarded, and entry fees will be refunded. - Any disputes arising from this competition will be settled by the competition organizers. Their decision will be final. - Award winners will earn points toward the Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year.=20 If you would like to be a judge or steward, please contact Bill Wible at (215) 335-2739, or bill at brewbyyou.net. Thanks! Bill Wible -------------------------- Brew By You =20 3504 Cottman Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19149 215-335-2739 (PA) 888-542-2739 (Outside PA) 215-335-0712 (Fax) www.brewbyyou.net --------------------------- --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from saclink3.csus.edu ([130.86.82.3]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10183A9C75 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:44:32 -0400 Received: from oemcomputer (dialup1-180.csus.edu) by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA076870249; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:44:09 -0700 From: "Dwight Bradish" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:48:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002201c12a3c$88dd66a0$d75179a5 at trhousemdlrem> X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message We use BJCP style guidelines in the 2 commercial competitions I am registrar of. One being the West Coast Brewers Festival Competition, which I run, and the other being the California Brewers Festival Competition. I would love to give points for them, we utilize mostly BJCP judges for these two events. Dwight -----Original Message----- From: judge at synchro.com [mailto:judge at synchro.com]On Behalf Of David Houseman Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:27 AM To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: BJCP Experience Points for Judging Commercial Beers I can't recall seeing the message below on JudgeNet. Perhaps it made it prior to the lightning strike and I missed it, but if not, I'm reposting in order to get feedback from judges: A several weekends ago Scott Bickham and I were among the judges judging a commercial competition at State College, PA. Actually a very nice little event with some wonderful beer. The question again came up about BJCP judges receiving judging credits for judging such events. Since I've had the opportunity to judge some of these, of course I'm biased. But other BJCP judges do participate and I was asked as the regional rep to bring this to the BJCP board for discussion. The BJCP board is discussing the issue but thought that perhaps this should be placed before the members for their feedback and opinions. Should the BJCP just limit recognition for judging only to homebrew events? Or set some minimal standards for commercial events as well? Frankly some of the commercial judging events are much better run than many of the homebrew events. Some do require feedback to the entrant; some do not. One possibility as I see it would be for the BJCP to publish a list of criteria, which might include the use of the BJCP Style Guidelines (or something substantially similar equivalent) as objective judging criteria, that a commercial competition must adhere to in order to have BJCP members who judge receive experience point credit. Having judged some commercial events the only style compromises I've seen are the inclusion of styles that reflected what was being brewed commercially, like Lite Rye or Caribbean Lager (40% cane sugar). But then we did the same by including the styles being brewed by homebrewers and eliminating those which really aren't popular. Not all the commercial competitions are sponsored by the commercial enterprises. A number of the smaller ones are in fact done with the proceeds going to charity. There is a range of commercial competitions from the GABF, WBC and the GBBF to small state fairs and regional or state competitions. The quality of the tasters in the GABF is outstanding. Any BJCP judge who judges there has the opportunity to learn from the best brewers/tasters of places like A-B and Coors. These guys don't pull their punches and don't compromise. While some of us may not care for their marketing, their technical people are excellent. A high percentage of the judges at the GABF are in fact BJCP judges. While they are there in their capacity as brewers or writers or owners, many are in fact BJCP judges. Should they not receive experience point credit for their judging experiences. Every judging experience can be nothing but beneficial. There aren't many of us that haven't judged a competition or three that the local club or organization hasn't placed some strange style on that particular competition's style guidelines. The Strange and Scary Homebrew Competition is an example. The Schukyll Dark style used at some local Philly competitions. These certainly weren't from any BJCP or AHA guidelines! Yet we judge them. I judged one competition that excluded styles! Just divided the beers by the color they appeared to be in their bottles and tasted for "best" beers. That was a homebrew competition for which the judges received judging credit! The BJCP has the opportunity to ignore the commercial competitions or help to make some of them better. I think the facts support our embracing commercial competition participation by BJCP judges, not discouraging participation. The only competition I've seen that the judging was just on drinkability was a homebrew competition for which the BJCP awarded experience points. The GABF absolutely has style guidelines to which the beers are entered and judged with just the same effort that we do in homebrew competition. We train judges to use their evaluation skills and some events may use BJCP style guidelines and judging forms will others may differ. Nonetheless, skilled judges should be able to adjust and adapt. I'm not suggesting that we sanction or register commercial competitions, but if a commercial competition is held to some (as yet to be defined) standard, then participating BJCP judges would be eligible to received judging experience points for their efforts. . The benefit to us it that it spreads the good word about our skills and experience and gets recognition for the BJCP. So what is the opinion of the BJCP membership? Pros? Cons? Dave Houseman MidAtlantic Representative --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.50]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10193A9D0D for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:14:34 -0400 Received: from dsapsislp2 (1Cust149.tnt2.sacramento2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.219.149]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13551 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000901c12b5f$6d0c61a0$95db113f at dsapsislp2> From: "Dave Sapsis" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: no heresy here Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:07:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Dion raises a very valid point regarding the nature of BJCP exam: this issue of rote memorization for beer style specifications. Here are my thoughts: The exam actually doesn't ask that you *memorize* anything, rather it asks for a comprehensive description about what constitutes the flavor profile of various styles, and how those flavors are realized. The reason is obvious. In addition to being literate about various beer styles, their production, and their historical context, a skillful judge needs to have a clear image in their mind of the marks they are looking for when evaluating a beer -- what are you looking for? Does this sample measure up? Where does it miss? What might be causing that? While one can get an idea of these targets by reading the style guidelines, the better judges already know, certainly in a more comprehensive manner, what is expected. They have developed this sense by reading, tasting, testing, and more controlled tasting. In this sense, the style guidelines are actually better suited for brewers designing recipes and attempting to understand the myriad flavors/aromas that can be had in the beer spectrum. The style guidelines are really no more than one classification system. If the examinee chooses to use different interpretations of a given style than those given in the BJCP guidelines, they are free to do so, but should make an attempt to justify their interpretation. Their is nothing magical nor resolute about these descriptions (although some certainly act as though this were the case)... styles and our impressions change not the least due to changes in goods, practices and public desires. While a basic means to begin forming the foundation of this profile can be had from memorizing the specs, I believe one is better off formulating a clear understanding *in their own words* of what the basics of a style are. It is true that we expect spec numbers (og, IBU's, color) to be given, they need not be exactly those given in the guidelines. We do not typically mark down if one says for ordinary bitter: "approx. 9 Plato, 30 units of bitterness, typically amber in color" because it does not mimic the exact specs given in the guidelines. In some instances the range in specs for a particular style actually emphasize the wide, strange, and somewhat arbitrary definitions that have developed over time (see old ale). The spec numbers do provide a clear benchmark of flavor space that a given beer should occupy, and some of these spaces have fuzzier boundaries than others. But in the case of a question that asks you to compare, say, cream ale, koelsch, and helles, one should be inclined to state that the basic parameter specs are really very similar for all three, and to make a point of describing how and why they actually differ in aroma and flavor. In any case, what we are looking for is an understanding of what one would expect given the style designator. I personally see the availability of the guidelines (and they may be BJCP or they may not) at the table of a panel as a way of simply reminding judges of the benchmarks, and stimulating their preformed understandings and experiences. The best exams are always those that include a fair deal of independent thought. Often, errors of commission ripple through entire sets of exams, where a particular factoid gets regurgitated (e.g., the adamant requirement of peat smoked malt in Scottish ales). Dion, my advice to you is to not attempt rote memorization -- in addition to causing folks to search aimlessly for data bits crammed into remote corners of their brains, it also tends to cloud true understanding and stifle creative, critical thought. Go for the central components (including specs, ingredients, process and flavor profiles) that define styles. Where these are inherently broad, make note of that and offer your own interpretations. It is likely both your exam score and your basic skill will be better off. I welcome others thoughts, --David Sapsis --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net ([24.147.1.144]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC10193A9D44 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:26:06 -0400 Received: from salsa.synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f7MNPkm01396; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010822191759.00b8ead0 at 192.168.1.100> X-Sender: chuck-synchro at 192.168.1.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:24:38 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Chuck Cox Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Beer in Greece Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Does anyone know where I can find a good beer store in Greece? I need to provision a sailboat for my honeymoon. I could also use any advice about Mediterranean-style stern-in docking. Thanks. -- Chuck Cox SynchroSystems Motorsport Computers Hopped/Up Racing Team --Message_Part_SYNC10253AA10E-- --Next_Part_SYNC10253AA10E--