Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA16155 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA04806 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:08:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 6/14/01 - 6/15/01 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:04:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- re: Dutch Pilseners (Nathaniel P. Lansing) Re: Dutch Pilsners (BrwyFoam at aol.com) Re: Dutch Pilsners (Jeff Renner) --Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79" --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from siaag1af.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.8]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC93303559D3 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:12:38 -0400 Received: (from mailgate at localhost) by siaag1af.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id KAA01704 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:13:51 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Subject: re: Dutch Pilseners Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: <200106131014_MC3-D5B5-42A8 at compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jeff Renner mentions: >>>There are some who argue that CAPs should use 6-row >> and domestic hops. >>Anybody I know?<< The 6-row I wouldn't exactly argue against, with an extra 20 minute boil = to reduce DMS, that bit of huskiness helps fortify the corn flavor. The domestic hops are right-out for the pils. Maybe it you used the base recipe to mak= e a stock ale the edginess of domestic hops would be OK. An aside, Mary Ann Gruber of Briess told me that their 6 row pale has nil DMS precursors, I thought that odd but she said it is by design. (??)= But the extended boil still works for me! >> I am researching your suggestion of amber pre-pro = >>lagers. I just got three more beer history books - one each on = >>Cincinnati, Cleveland and SW Ontario. I'll get back to you on this. Please let me know what you find. I've added 4 oz chocolate to a batch to= make a "Gilligan's Red", while it didn't pick up much color at all, it di= d impart a nice maltiness that I didn't expect, but it only picked up maybe 2L in color. N.P. (Del) Lansing --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.37]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC9330355A80 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:45:54 -0400 Received: from BrwyFoam at aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id u.61.f15d781 (4545); Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:47:20 -0400 (EDT) From: BrwyFoam at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: <61.f15d781.2858d6f7 at aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:47:19 EDT Subject: Re: Dutch Pilsners To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest CC: JeffRenner at mediaone.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 114 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jeff writes: >I think that Bud >uses 6-row now - do you know, George? I believe (via MCAB III) that the modern Bud uses both 2-row and 6-row. I was referring to the pre-prohibition Bud, which according to Kreb's book (Making Friends - 100 Years of Anheuser -Busch) did not use any 6-row malt. >I agree that there were some brewers who did use both 2-row and >imported hops, but I think they were the exception. I slightly disagree with this. It is my impression that a number of the "premium" pre-prohibition lagers were either all 2-row or a blend like the modern Bud. My reference on this is: Fotte,"Hannchen Barley Production in Oregon", MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol.2, 1965 I have no objection to the use of 6-row malt in CAPS. It fact, I have written three (now long forgotten!) articles which have recipes for "Traditional American Lagers" calling for maize and 6-row malt. They are: 1. "Cereal Grains" - Zymurgy - 1985 Special issue (This also has an exact recipe for the Heinekin brewed in this era. I have no idea why their beer is now so thin. Possibly it is micro-filtration.) 2. Amateur Brewer Communications (Fred Eckhardt's old version), No.8, 1982 - "Gilbert Straub and the Pennsylvania Brewing Tradition" 3. Zymurgy -Winter 1981 - "Traditional Pennsylvania Lager" BTW the recipe in the latter was the one used for the first BOS I ever brewed (Joint AHA-HWBTA - 2nd Annual Int'l Beer Competition - Phoenix,Arizona - 1981). 6-row barley yields a characteristic grainy/husky taste. It also has elevated levels of DMS precursors, and unless extraordinary steps are taken beer DMS levels will be above threshold. I think both are acceptable in CAPS. However, I take strong objection with the notion that they are de rigueur for the style, and that judges deduct points on entries where these flavor tones are absent. This IMHO is conflicts with the history of American beer, and more seriously sharply constrains the amount of creative styling that can be done within the BJCP guidelines. >BTW, George, I am researching your suggestion of amber pre-pro >lagers. I just got three more beer history books - one each on >Cincinnati, Cleveland and SW Ontario. I'll get back to you on this. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Cheers, George Fix --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net ([24.131.1.56]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC934335673E for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:08:45 -0400 Received: from [24.30.39.198] (nic-30-c39-198.mw.mediaone.net [24.30.39.198]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5E3A5K07135; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: JeffRenner at pop.mw.mediaone.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <61.f15d781.2858d6f7 at aol.com> References: <61.f15d781.2858d6f7 at aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:09:39 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Dutch Pilsners Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message At 10:47 AM -0400 6/13/01, BrwyFoam at aol.com wrote: >Jeff writes: > > >I agree that there were some brewers who did use both 2-row and >>imported hops, but I think they were the exception. > > I slightly disagree with this. It is my impression that a number of the >"premium" pre-prohibition lagers were either all 2-row or a blend like the >modern Bud. My reference on this is: > Fotte,"Hannchen Barley Production in Oregon", MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol.2, 1965 You're ahead of me there in your research. I'm mostly thinking of the thousands of little breweries all over the country a hundred years ago, and extrapolating, as I wrote, from Wahl and Henius. I hope someday (a retirement project?) to do some research from original sources. I suspect the MBAA has a good library. Unfortunately, I bet much of the documentation is auf Deutsch, which I can only barely read, and then, only in Latin alphabet, not German script or typeface. Can you elaborate on the prevalence of beers that were not 6-row + cereal and mostly or all domestic hops? >I have no objection to the use of 6-row malt in CAPS. It fact, I have >written three (now long forgotten!) articles which have recipes for Not forgotten by me, as the two Zymurgy articles were inspiring sources for my original interest. I was a subscriber to Fred's very irregular Amateur Brewer at that time too, but I don't specifically remember that article, and I don't seem to have kept them. But it may have been a subliminal inspiration. I remain indebted. >6-row barley yields a characteristic grainy/husky taste. It also has >elevated levels of DMS precursors, and unless extraordinary steps are taken >beer DMS levels will be above threshold. Is it that much higher than two-row? Schwartz and Horsley write in BT http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/schwarz.html "Protein levels also increase the potential for dimethyl sulphide (DMS) formation in beer. ... Six-row malts contain higher levels of the DMS precursor SMM, presumably because of their higher protein content." It would seem that it would be only as much higher as the higher amount of protein, or typically 12.5% vs. 11.5% (ibid), or 9% greater. Even less with Briess' typical analysis - 12.5% vs 12.0%, or 4% greater (http://www.briess.com). I certainly have a high taste threshold for DMS, but I don't do anything more than boil with the lid off and chill promptly. I don't seem to have high levels according to those I've asked to taste my beers. >I think both are acceptable in CAPS. However, I take strong objection with >the notion that they are de rigueur for the style, and that judges deduct >points on entries where these flavor tones are absent. This IMHO is conflicts >with the history of American beer, and more seriously sharply constrains >the amount of creative styling that can be done within the BJCP guidelines. I have no complaint with this. At some point, though, we have to decide what distinguishes a CAP (or any classic pre-pro American lager) from a continental lager. If we were able to document a pre-pro US lager made with 100% two-row and Saaz hops (and I suspect here were some), would such a modern brew qualify? I would argue not, even though it was a reproduction of an historic American pre-pro beer. (I also wouldn't want to be on it being picked out by judges, including me. And my first CAP took a gold as a German Pilsner, the only category available). Clearly, these would not have been representative of the millions of barrels of 6-row, adjunct, domestic hopped lagers brewed annually. Even Trommer's all malt lager of the 1950's used 6-row and Cluster (as well as Saaz), according to Jankowski's BT article http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html. I'd like to add one more thing, but i can't find Peter Blum's recent article on 6-row and 2-row malt, and Stroh's investigations when formulating their super-premium Signature lager. I will track that down and post it later. It does seem to me that he wrote that they found no difference between the tow malts, hard as that is to believe. Cheers. jeff -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79-- --Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA16155 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA04806 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:08:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 6/14/01 - 6/15/01 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:04:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79" X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- re: Dutch Pilseners (Nathaniel P. Lansing) Re: Dutch Pilsners (BrwyFoam at aol.com) Re: Dutch Pilsners (Jeff Renner) --Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79" --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from siaag1af.compuserve.com ([149.174.40.8]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC93303559D3 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:12:38 -0400 Received: (from mailgate at localhost) by siaag1af.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id KAA01704 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:13:51 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Subject: re: Dutch Pilseners Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-ID: <200106131014_MC3-D5B5-42A8 at compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jeff Renner mentions: >>>There are some who argue that CAPs should use 6-row >> and domestic hops. >>Anybody I know?<< The 6-row I wouldn't exactly argue against, with an extra 20 minute boil = to reduce DMS, that bit of huskiness helps fortify the corn flavor. The domestic hops are right-out for the pils. Maybe it you used the base recipe to mak= e a stock ale the edginess of domestic hops would be OK. An aside, Mary Ann Gruber of Briess told me that their 6 row pale has nil DMS precursors, I thought that odd but she said it is by design. (??)= But the extended boil still works for me! >> I am researching your suggestion of amber pre-pro = >>lagers. I just got three more beer history books - one each on = >>Cincinnati, Cleveland and SW Ontario. I'll get back to you on this. Please let me know what you find. I've added 4 oz chocolate to a batch to= make a "Gilligan's Red", while it didn't pick up much color at all, it di= d impart a nice maltiness that I didn't expect, but it only picked up maybe 2L in color. N.P. (Del) Lansing --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.37]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC9330355A80 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:45:54 -0400 Received: from BrwyFoam at aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id u.61.f15d781 (4545); Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:47:20 -0400 (EDT) From: BrwyFoam at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: <61.f15d781.2858d6f7 at aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:47:19 EDT Subject: Re: Dutch Pilsners To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest CC: JeffRenner at mediaone.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 114 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jeff writes: >I think that Bud >uses 6-row now - do you know, George? I believe (via MCAB III) that the modern Bud uses both 2-row and 6-row. I was referring to the pre-prohibition Bud, which according to Kreb's book (Making Friends - 100 Years of Anheuser -Busch) did not use any 6-row malt. >I agree that there were some brewers who did use both 2-row and >imported hops, but I think they were the exception. I slightly disagree with this. It is my impression that a number of the "premium" pre-prohibition lagers were either all 2-row or a blend like the modern Bud. My reference on this is: Fotte,"Hannchen Barley Production in Oregon", MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol.2, 1965 I have no objection to the use of 6-row malt in CAPS. It fact, I have written three (now long forgotten!) articles which have recipes for "Traditional American Lagers" calling for maize and 6-row malt. They are: 1. "Cereal Grains" - Zymurgy - 1985 Special issue (This also has an exact recipe for the Heinekin brewed in this era. I have no idea why their beer is now so thin. Possibly it is micro-filtration.) 2. Amateur Brewer Communications (Fred Eckhardt's old version), No.8, 1982 - "Gilbert Straub and the Pennsylvania Brewing Tradition" 3. Zymurgy -Winter 1981 - "Traditional Pennsylvania Lager" BTW the recipe in the latter was the one used for the first BOS I ever brewed (Joint AHA-HWBTA - 2nd Annual Int'l Beer Competition - Phoenix,Arizona - 1981). 6-row barley yields a characteristic grainy/husky taste. It also has elevated levels of DMS precursors, and unless extraordinary steps are taken beer DMS levels will be above threshold. I think both are acceptable in CAPS. However, I take strong objection with the notion that they are de rigueur for the style, and that judges deduct points on entries where these flavor tones are absent. This IMHO is conflicts with the history of American beer, and more seriously sharply constrains the amount of creative styling that can be done within the BJCP guidelines. >BTW, George, I am researching your suggestion of amber pre-pro >lagers. I just got three more beer history books - one each on >Cincinnati, Cleveland and SW Ontario. I'll get back to you on this. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Cheers, George Fix --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net ([24.131.1.56]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC934335673E for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:08:45 -0400 Received: from [24.30.39.198] (nic-30-c39-198.mw.mediaone.net [24.30.39.198]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5E3A5K07135; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: JeffRenner at pop.mw.mediaone.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <61.f15d781.2858d6f7 at aol.com> References: <61.f15d781.2858d6f7 at aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:09:39 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Dutch Pilsners Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message At 10:47 AM -0400 6/13/01, BrwyFoam at aol.com wrote: >Jeff writes: > > >I agree that there were some brewers who did use both 2-row and >>imported hops, but I think they were the exception. > > I slightly disagree with this. It is my impression that a number of the >"premium" pre-prohibition lagers were either all 2-row or a blend like the >modern Bud. My reference on this is: > Fotte,"Hannchen Barley Production in Oregon", MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol.2, 1965 You're ahead of me there in your research. I'm mostly thinking of the thousands of little breweries all over the country a hundred years ago, and extrapolating, as I wrote, from Wahl and Henius. I hope someday (a retirement project?) to do some research from original sources. I suspect the MBAA has a good library. Unfortunately, I bet much of the documentation is auf Deutsch, which I can only barely read, and then, only in Latin alphabet, not German script or typeface. Can you elaborate on the prevalence of beers that were not 6-row + cereal and mostly or all domestic hops? >I have no objection to the use of 6-row malt in CAPS. It fact, I have >written three (now long forgotten!) articles which have recipes for Not forgotten by me, as the two Zymurgy articles were inspiring sources for my original interest. I was a subscriber to Fred's very irregular Amateur Brewer at that time too, but I don't specifically remember that article, and I don't seem to have kept them. But it may have been a subliminal inspiration. I remain indebted. >6-row barley yields a characteristic grainy/husky taste. It also has >elevated levels of DMS precursors, and unless extraordinary steps are taken >beer DMS levels will be above threshold. Is it that much higher than two-row? Schwartz and Horsley write in BT http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/schwarz.html "Protein levels also increase the potential for dimethyl sulphide (DMS) formation in beer. ... Six-row malts contain higher levels of the DMS precursor SMM, presumably because of their higher protein content." It would seem that it would be only as much higher as the higher amount of protein, or typically 12.5% vs. 11.5% (ibid), or 9% greater. Even less with Briess' typical analysis - 12.5% vs 12.0%, or 4% greater (http://www.briess.com). I certainly have a high taste threshold for DMS, but I don't do anything more than boil with the lid off and chill promptly. I don't seem to have high levels according to those I've asked to taste my beers. >I think both are acceptable in CAPS. However, I take strong objection with >the notion that they are de rigueur for the style, and that judges deduct >points on entries where these flavor tones are absent. This IMHO is conflicts >with the history of American beer, and more seriously sharply constrains >the amount of creative styling that can be done within the BJCP guidelines. I have no complaint with this. At some point, though, we have to decide what distinguishes a CAP (or any classic pre-pro American lager) from a continental lager. If we were able to document a pre-pro US lager made with 100% two-row and Saaz hops (and I suspect here were some), would such a modern brew qualify? I would argue not, even though it was a reproduction of an historic American pre-pro beer. (I also wouldn't want to be on it being picked out by judges, including me. And my first CAP took a gold as a German Pilsner, the only category available). Clearly, these would not have been representative of the millions of barrels of 6-row, adjunct, domestic hopped lagers brewed annually. Even Trommer's all malt lager of the 1950's used 6-row and Cluster (as well as Saaz), according to Jankowski's BT article http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html. I'd like to add one more thing, but i can't find Peter Blum's recent article on 6-row and 2-row malt, and Stroh's investigations when formulating their super-premium Signature lager. I will track that down and post it later. It does seem to me that he wrote that they found no difference between the tow malts, hard as that is to believe. Cheers. jeff -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 --Message_Part_SYNC9369358C79-- --Next_Part_SYNC9369358C79--