Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA26488 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA06044 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 6/12/01 - 6/13/01 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:00:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71" X-Hops: 1 Status: --Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Dutch Pilsners (Jeff Renner) --Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC9321354E71" --Message_Part_SYNC9321354E71 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net ([24.131.1.56]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC9294353F25 for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:38:22 -0400 Received: from [24.30.39.198] (nic-30-c39-198.mw.mediaone.net [24.30.39.198]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5C2e8K14940 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: JeffRenner at pop.mw.mediaone.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:40:00 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Dutch Pilsners Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message George Fix writes >How about entering it as a CAP? Heinekin is made from 75% 2-row malt and 25% >flaked maize with an OE of 12P (1.048). It is reported to have a IBU of 25, >and the last time I was at one of their breweries they were using German >aroma hops (mainly Hal Mtf and Hersbrucker). Of course, this makes me uneasy! ;-) Even my 1048 25 IBU CAP tastes much heartier than Heinekin, although I can't say why. Perhaps the Cluster? Or the 6-row? Or maybe they just do their utmost to make a light beer while I do the opposite, although I can't say how. In part, my CAPs, even of the same gravity, are richer, even with 75%+ apparent attenuation. One thing, I suspect, is that they use a lot more than the 22% corn that I use. >My personal CAP formulation is based on a 1905 recipe taken from Nugy's book >(page 38 ), and has a similar grain bill except that the OE is 15P (1.061), >and IBUs are in the mid 30s. The BJCP guidellines call for 11-15P >(1.044-1.060) and IBUs of 25-40, so my version and Heinekin make in into this >window in spite of being very different beers. My standard CAP is 1.048 - 1.050, 30-35 IBU, and also would not be confounded with Heinie. >There are some who argue that CAPs should use 6-row and domestic hops. Anybody I know? >This >IMHO is more personal preference rather than historical fact. Coors has never >used anything except 2-row malt in the entire 130 some odd years they have >been brewing in the US, and according to "Making Friends" the pre-prohibition >Budwiser used 2-row malt (and of course rice) with an OE of 12P (1.048). They >also used Saaz hops exclusively. The best I can tell the IBU of the "original >Bud" was in the mid 30s while "western lagers" like Coors were in the mid 20s. I agree that there were some brewers who did use both 2-row and imported hops, but I think they were the exception. I think that Bud uses 6-row now - do you know, George? I don't know about pre-pro. But a hundred years ago, "six row barley (was) employed almost exclusively for malting in the United States" (p. 450 of 1902 edition Wahl & Henius http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Wahl/). Similarly, Wahl & Henius state (pp.477-478) that the annual US hops production of 300,000 bales ( at 190 lbs) was 100,000 more than was needed for the annual beer production of 36,000,000 barrels (50,000 bales were exported to Britain, leaving a 50,000 bale surplus). Since (200,000*190 lbs)/36,000,000 barrels works out to 2.9 lbs. of hops per barrel, there doesn't seem to be much question that most brewers were using mostly US hops. Ralph Olson of Hops Union has suggested to me that domestic hops of a century ago would have been of the Cluster type. I like to use 6-row malt with a cereal mash, and Cluster for bittering (some flavor carries over), with Saaz or some other noble hop for FWH and late addition. I've tried all Cluster, but that's a little much even for me. George probably wouldn't even get past the nose! But Cluster really is a part of that old fashioned taste for me. BTW, George, I am researching your suggestion of amber pre-pro lagers. I just got three more beer history books - one each on Cincinnati, Cleveland and SW Ontario. I'll get back to you on this. Jeff -- ***Please note new address*** (old one will still work) Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 --Message_Part_SYNC9321354E71-- --Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA26488 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA06044 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 6/12/01 - 6/13/01 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:00:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71" X-Hops: 1 Status: --Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Dutch Pilsners (Jeff Renner) --Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC9321354E71" --Message_Part_SYNC9321354E71 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net ([24.131.1.56]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC9294353F25 for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:38:22 -0400 Received: from [24.30.39.198] (nic-30-c39-198.mw.mediaone.net [24.30.39.198]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5C2e8K14940 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: JeffRenner at pop.mw.mediaone.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:40:00 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Dutch Pilsners Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message George Fix writes >How about entering it as a CAP? Heinekin is made from 75% 2-row malt and 25% >flaked maize with an OE of 12P (1.048). It is reported to have a IBU of 25, >and the last time I was at one of their breweries they were using German >aroma hops (mainly Hal Mtf and Hersbrucker). Of course, this makes me uneasy! ;-) Even my 1048 25 IBU CAP tastes much heartier than Heinekin, although I can't say why. Perhaps the Cluster? Or the 6-row? Or maybe they just do their utmost to make a light beer while I do the opposite, although I can't say how. In part, my CAPs, even of the same gravity, are richer, even with 75%+ apparent attenuation. One thing, I suspect, is that they use a lot more than the 22% corn that I use. >My personal CAP formulation is based on a 1905 recipe taken from Nugy's book >(page 38 ), and has a similar grain bill except that the OE is 15P (1.061), >and IBUs are in the mid 30s. The BJCP guidellines call for 11-15P >(1.044-1.060) and IBUs of 25-40, so my version and Heinekin make in into this >window in spite of being very different beers. My standard CAP is 1.048 - 1.050, 30-35 IBU, and also would not be confounded with Heinie. >There are some who argue that CAPs should use 6-row and domestic hops. Anybody I know? >This >IMHO is more personal preference rather than historical fact. Coors has never >used anything except 2-row malt in the entire 130 some odd years they have >been brewing in the US, and according to "Making Friends" the pre-prohibition >Budwiser used 2-row malt (and of course rice) with an OE of 12P (1.048). They >also used Saaz hops exclusively. The best I can tell the IBU of the "original >Bud" was in the mid 30s while "western lagers" like Coors were in the mid 20s. I agree that there were some brewers who did use both 2-row and imported hops, but I think they were the exception. I think that Bud uses 6-row now - do you know, George? I don't know about pre-pro. But a hundred years ago, "six row barley (was) employed almost exclusively for malting in the United States" (p. 450 of 1902 edition Wahl & Henius http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/Wahl/). Similarly, Wahl & Henius state (pp.477-478) that the annual US hops production of 300,000 bales ( at 190 lbs) was 100,000 more than was needed for the annual beer production of 36,000,000 barrels (50,000 bales were exported to Britain, leaving a 50,000 bale surplus). Since (200,000*190 lbs)/36,000,000 barrels works out to 2.9 lbs. of hops per barrel, there doesn't seem to be much question that most brewers were using mostly US hops. Ralph Olson of Hops Union has suggested to me that domestic hops of a century ago would have been of the Cluster type. I like to use 6-row malt with a cereal mash, and Cluster for bittering (some flavor carries over), with Saaz or some other noble hop for FWH and late addition. I've tried all Cluster, but that's a little much even for me. George probably wouldn't even get past the nose! But Cluster really is a part of that old fashioned taste for me. BTW, George, I am researching your suggestion of amber pre-pro lagers. I just got three more beer history books - one each on Cincinnati, Cleveland and SW Ontario. I'll get back to you on this. Jeff -- ***Please note new address*** (old one will still work) Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 --Message_Part_SYNC9321354E71-- --Next_Part_SYNC9321354E71--