Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04089 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA27518 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:05:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 4/22/01 - 4/23/01 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:03:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17" X-Hops: 1 Status: O --Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Digest for the period 4/21/01 - 4/22/01 (Bill Neilson) Re: Pro Homebrewers (David Sherfey) Pros -vs- Amateurs (Tyler Yarbrough) --Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17" --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from c1mailgw07.prontomail.com ([216.163.184.10]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC80742E3DFF for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:03:41 -0400 Received: from c6web106 (216.163.178.10) by c1mailgw07.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.015.3) id 3AD50D36001A5C6B for judge at synchro.com; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:02:22 -0700 X-Version: beer 6.3.3353.0 From: "Bill Neilson" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-Id: Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:01:53 -0700 X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/21/01 - 4/22/01 X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I just have to put my two cents worth here. I want to start off by saying that I am a homebrewer. Not an amateur nor a pro just a homebrewer and I feel that I do a pretty good job of it. I have never worked in any capacity for a brewery, I have never written a book, I just brew beer as a hobby and enter a competition now and then. I don't ever recall seeing the word amateur mentioned in any homebrew competition that I have entered. I think the information and tools are available for anyone to be able to make a homebrew as good as Charlie Papazian. As a matter of fact, I would gladly enter my homebrew in a competition against any homebrew expert or brewmeister of a commercial brewery as it would lend credence to my brew when I won. I was a Competition Coordinator at a competition last year and provided the judges with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale as the calibration beer(the commercial example for the American Pale Ale in the BJCP guidelines). It just so happened that the Best of Show beer was an American Pale Ale and was judged by a total of 7 judges (3 in category and 4 for Best of Show). This brew came from an amateur homebrewer and every judge scored it a minimum of 5 points higher than the Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. The main purpose of a homebrew competition in my humble opinion is to get feedback from the judges so that you might make the necessary adjustments to your brew and come back with a better beer the next time. Nuff said.... Bill Neilson Cheers! Bill Neilson Parrott's Ferry Homebrew Club Beer Mail, brought to you by your friends at beer.com. --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from host.warwick.net ([204.255.24.254]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC80792E41BE for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:49:52 -0400 Received: from 1fvl601.warwick.net (viruswall2.warwick.net [204.255.24.160]) by host.warwick.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3MBnrL255309 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010422064623.00a5fec0 at mail.warwick.net> X-Sender: u1014856 at mail.warwick.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:49:48 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: David Sherfey Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Pro Homebrewers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Bill is unhappy with "pros" entering homebrew competitions; >OK, looks like I misunderstood this issue. I thought >once someone was considered a pro, they wouldn't and >shouldn't be entering beers in "amateur" homebrew >competitions................... >So you guys are saying it doesn't matter whether >someone is a Siebel or Weihenstephen graduate, >or if they have years of experience working in >a brewery in whatever capacity- they can still >enter beers in "amateur" homebrew competitions, >as long as the beer was "at home". If that's >what the "rule" is, so be it, but I don't like >it. To me, it still isn't fair, and takes the >fun out of it. Whoa, now... It is helpful to remember that homebrewing is a hobby. Hobbies are fun because we are passionate about them and do all sorts of whacky things to learn and do more. Occasionally someone is even whacky enough to go professional. That does not stop the passion........Even if you take your hobby and convert it into a profitable venture, it can still be a hobby. When our pals turn professional we don't banish them from our sport, we just make it as hard on them as it is on us. The "brewed at home" requirement is a great equalizer. A homebrewer who turns pro is still limited to all of the same conditions of a homebrewer when they have to brew something on the kitchen stove or garage brewery. A short list of these conditions: small recipe scale, less than ideal equipment, bottling(!), and the fact that it takes dedication and time, etc - is enough to take the "pro" out of any of us....The knowledge, information, and ingredients to make any beer is easily available to all of us if we want to go after it, so there is certainly no advantage/disadvantage here. I don't think any of this takes any fun out of homebrew competitions, and to the contrary, I think it makes it even more fun. It is all a matter of how you look at it. Fun! Fun! Fun! David Sherfey Warwick, NY --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.241]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC80842E445F for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:02:11 -0400 Received: from pacbell.net ([63.198.47.148]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GC700I8VB5V3M at mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:01:12 -0700 From: Tyler Yarbrough Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Pros -vs- Amateurs To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-id: <3AE30047.3239B5F7 at pacbell.net> Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD PBI-NC461 (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Hi, Bill, and All: Our competition, the World Cup of Beer, has been an MCAB Qualifying Event for several years, now, and has attracted some 'famous names' in the brewing community. Just because a professional brewer made the beer, doesn't seem to really give that entry any particular edge up, from a statistical point of view. Our Best of Show awards have always gone to hobbyists. Obviously beers from people who "wrote the book" on a particular style can do well, but "professional" home brewers still work with the same vagarities of yeast, hops, malt and water as the rest of us. Conversely, I've judged commercial beer competitions that a decent homebrewer could have won with ease. --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17-- --Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04089 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA27518 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:05:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 4/22/01 - 4/23/01 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 01:03:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17" X-Hops: 1 Status: O --Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Table of contents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Digest for the period 4/21/01 - 4/22/01 (Bill Neilson) Re: Pro Homebrewers (David Sherfey) Pros -vs- Amateurs (Tyler Yarbrough) --Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17" --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from c1mailgw07.prontomail.com ([216.163.184.10]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC80742E3DFF for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:03:41 -0400 Received: from c6web106 (216.163.178.10) by c1mailgw07.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.015.3) id 3AD50D36001A5C6B for judge at synchro.com; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:02:22 -0700 X-Version: beer 6.3.3353.0 From: "Bill Neilson" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-Id: Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:01:53 -0700 X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Digest for the period 4/21/01 - 4/22/01 X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I just have to put my two cents worth here. I want to start off by saying that I am a homebrewer. Not an amateur nor a pro just a homebrewer and I feel that I do a pretty good job of it. I have never worked in any capacity for a brewery, I have never written a book, I just brew beer as a hobby and enter a competition now and then. I don't ever recall seeing the word amateur mentioned in any homebrew competition that I have entered. I think the information and tools are available for anyone to be able to make a homebrew as good as Charlie Papazian. As a matter of fact, I would gladly enter my homebrew in a competition against any homebrew expert or brewmeister of a commercial brewery as it would lend credence to my brew when I won. I was a Competition Coordinator at a competition last year and provided the judges with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale as the calibration beer(the commercial example for the American Pale Ale in the BJCP guidelines). It just so happened that the Best of Show beer was an American Pale Ale and was judged by a total of 7 judges (3 in category and 4 for Best of Show). This brew came from an amateur homebrewer and every judge scored it a minimum of 5 points higher than the Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. The main purpose of a homebrew competition in my humble opinion is to get feedback from the judges so that you might make the necessary adjustments to your brew and come back with a better beer the next time. Nuff said.... Bill Neilson Cheers! Bill Neilson Parrott's Ferry Homebrew Club Beer Mail, brought to you by your friends at beer.com. --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from host.warwick.net ([204.255.24.254]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC80792E41BE for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:49:52 -0400 Received: from 1fvl601.warwick.net (viruswall2.warwick.net [204.255.24.160]) by host.warwick.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3MBnrL255309 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010422064623.00a5fec0 at mail.warwick.net> X-Sender: u1014856 at mail.warwick.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:49:48 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: David Sherfey Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Pro Homebrewers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Bill is unhappy with "pros" entering homebrew competitions; >OK, looks like I misunderstood this issue. I thought >once someone was considered a pro, they wouldn't and >shouldn't be entering beers in "amateur" homebrew >competitions................... >So you guys are saying it doesn't matter whether >someone is a Siebel or Weihenstephen graduate, >or if they have years of experience working in >a brewery in whatever capacity- they can still >enter beers in "amateur" homebrew competitions, >as long as the beer was "at home". If that's >what the "rule" is, so be it, but I don't like >it. To me, it still isn't fair, and takes the >fun out of it. Whoa, now... It is helpful to remember that homebrewing is a hobby. Hobbies are fun because we are passionate about them and do all sorts of whacky things to learn and do more. Occasionally someone is even whacky enough to go professional. That does not stop the passion........Even if you take your hobby and convert it into a profitable venture, it can still be a hobby. When our pals turn professional we don't banish them from our sport, we just make it as hard on them as it is on us. The "brewed at home" requirement is a great equalizer. A homebrewer who turns pro is still limited to all of the same conditions of a homebrewer when they have to brew something on the kitchen stove or garage brewery. A short list of these conditions: small recipe scale, less than ideal equipment, bottling(!), and the fact that it takes dedication and time, etc - is enough to take the "pro" out of any of us....The knowledge, information, and ingredients to make any beer is easily available to all of us if we want to go after it, so there is certainly no advantage/disadvantage here. I don't think any of this takes any fun out of homebrew competitions, and to the contrary, I think it makes it even more fun. It is all a matter of how you look at it. Fun! Fun! Fun! David Sherfey Warwick, NY --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net ([206.13.28.241]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.5.1167) id SYNC80842E445F for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:02:11 -0400 Received: from pacbell.net ([63.198.47.148]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GC700I8VB5V3M at mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:01:12 -0700 From: Tyler Yarbrough Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Pros -vs- Amateurs To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Message-id: <3AE30047.3239B5F7 at pacbell.net> Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-CCK-MCD PBI-NC461 (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Hi, Bill, and All: Our competition, the World Cup of Beer, has been an MCAB Qualifying Event for several years, now, and has attracted some 'famous names' in the brewing community. Just because a professional brewer made the beer, doesn't seem to really give that entry any particular edge up, from a statistical point of view. Our Best of Show awards have always gone to hobbyists. Obviously beers from people who "wrote the book" on a particular style can do well, but "professional" home brewers still work with the same vagarities of yeast, hops, malt and water as the rest of us. Conversely, I've judged commercial beer competitions that a decent homebrewer could have won with ease. --Message_Part_SYNC80972E4C17-- --Next_Part_SYNC80972E4C17--