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Table of contents
------------------------------------------------------
Re: Amateurs or professionals? (phil sides jr)
re:professional or amateur (Nathaniel P. Lansing)
Re: Amateurs or professionals? (Joel Plutchak)
"Pro" brewers (Spencer W Thomas)
Re: Digest for the period 04/18/01 - 04/19/01 (XZYMURGIST at aol.com)
Re: Different Beers, Same Category? (Bill Wible)
Scottish Ale (Norman Dickenson)
Re: Digest for the period 04/17/01 - 04/18/01 Different Beers, same category (Anne at Vermont Homebrew)
Spirit of Free Beer IX (Anderson Andy W NSSC)
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Bill Wible Asked:

>For the purposes of homebrew competitions, can or
>should someone be considered a 'professional' brewer
>even if they don't make their living brewing and
>selling beer?

>How about a writer who writes exclusively about beer?
>Should Michael Jackson, Charlie Papazian, George Fix,
>Greg Noonan, Ray Daniels, Roger Protz or any other
>such person be allowed to enter beers in a homebrew
>competition?**  Or would/should these people be
>considered pros?  Wouldn't it seem that any of
>these guys has the same knowledge as a professional
>brewer, if not more?

If they brew the beer at home and not in a commercial facility they are
homebrewing irrespective of what they do for a living.  I have never seen
competition rules that disqualified a professional brewer or allied trade
member.  I have however seen prohibitions on beer produced in a commercial
facility (a B.O.P. for example).

I write about beer myself and honestly do not see the correlation between
writing about beer and being God's gift to homebrewing.  I'll make myself an
example in the following hypothetical:  I am a former powerlifter and
American football player and in my denial that I am too old to still do so,
I play Division 1 rugby now.  I *could* be the world's foremost authority on
ballet and write great books on the subject.  This in no way would make me a
great dancer largely due to the fact that I weigh about 180 pounds more than
the average ballet dancer.  Now I am off on a tangent...

I guess my point is being an expert and being the best do  not necessarily
go hand-in-hand.  The list of authors above is a list of good teachers and
good writers and in some cases both.  These are both attributes of people
who are experts.  They may be good homebrewers too, but that should not
disqualify them from competing.

Phil Sides
Concord, NH

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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:00:10 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
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Bill Wiblw asked,
>>Should Michael Jackson, Charlie Papazian, George Fix,
Greg Noonan, Ray Daniels, Roger Protz or any other
such person be allowed to enter beers in a homebrew
competition?**<<

  According to the *rules, yes, if the beer is brewed at home.
Specifically these people mentioned freely have shared their
knowledge with the homebrew community and if you haven't
read and applied that knowledge to improve your brewing then
only *you have given them some unseen advantage. =

  I would be rather honored to have any of these people submit
beers to our competition; that would indicate they respect and =

trust the club's judge's abilities.

N.P Lansing
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Bill Wible writes:
>For the purposes of homebrew competitions, can or should someone be
>considered a 'professional' brewer even if they don't make their
>living brewing and selling beer?  ...Michael Jackson, Charlie Papazian,
>George Fix, Greg Noonan, Ray Daniels, Roger Protz...

   The only things that differentiates homebrew from commercial
brew are where the brewing is accomplished and who paid for the
equipment and materials.  (Well, taxes and the federal govt figure
in there too. ;-)  If Greg Noonan brews a beer in the Vermont Pub &
Brewery, it's not homebrew.  If he brews a batch in his kitchen,
it's homebrew.
   In our competition (plug: Boneyard Brew-Off, 7th Annual on
June 2 this year) we are pleased to see entries from George Fix
almost every year.  And if Charlie still finds enough time to brew,
we'd enjoy seeing an entry or two from him, too (though the AHA
detractors would probably find something wrong with that).
 
Joel Plutchak
Champaign IL

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As I've seen it, the usual prohibition on "pro brewers" has not to do
with their occupation as such, but on how/where the beer was brewed.
If a "pro brewer" makes a 5 gallon batch at home in the kitchen (or
garage or driveway...) then that batch is "homebrew."  On the other
hand, if s/he uses the pilot system at work to make the batch, then it
is not "homebrew," having been made in a pro brewery.  Some
competitions also exclude beers made at a BYO place.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)
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In a message dated 4/19/01 1:04:55 AM, beerking1 at juno.com writes:

<< 
I have enjoyed Belhaven for decades. Probably my first introduction to
Scottish Style Ales. I have never detected anything I would consider
smokiness, prominent or otherwise. >>

Coincidentally, I came home yesterday to find that my wife had bought some 
Belhaven, which I had not had in a number of years.  After my first sip, I 
was surprised to detect a fairly prominent smokiness.  I did not remember 
Belhaven as being particularly smokey in the past.

Just an anecdote to add to the discussion.

Roman Davis
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Subject: Re: Different Beers, Same Category?
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
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If I understand what beerking says below, I am only "allowed"
to enter one beer in any given category.  I couldn't disagree
more.  First, I've never seen any rule in any competition that
said this.  Second, why should I have to "decide" which beer
out of multiple batches from the same style is the "best", and
only enter that one?  I'll ask again - shouldn't I be allowed
to get credit for ALL the beers I brew, the same way everybody
else wants to?
 
You guys want it both ways.  You're saying its fine to enter
the same beer in multiple categories, and even as something
other than what you intended to brew it as.  You want to try
to get credit for a beer in a style you didn't even intend to
brew.  But you're so scared somebody else might try to "cheat"
you out of one of your ribbons that you then want to turn around
and tell me that its wrong for someone to enter more than 1 beer
in the same style, even when its what they did intend to brew,
and the batches were different.

Like I said, I couldn't disagree more.

Bill

>--------------------------------------------------------
>From: beerking1 at juno.com  Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:03:08 -0400
>Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/17/01 - 04/18/01
>
>Regarding Bill's comment below, part of the "challenge" of entering your
>beer in a competition is deciding which one in a given category has a
>better chance of winning (or which one you would rather have
>comments/feedback on!).

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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:51:53 -0700
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The recent discussion of smokiness in Scottish Ales is
most interesting.  Having had the pleasure of an extended
vacation throughout Scotland not long ago, I had the
opportunity to sample many different examples served
both with nitrogen and from the handpump including
examples from the following brands:  McEwans,
Youngers, Caledonian, Waverly, Belhaven, Maclay and
a number of microbreweries which can make some
interesting and off-the-wall examples.  It is true than many examples have
slid towards the English Bitters style
with more aggressive hopping  and ester development. It was amusing that
some examples were labeled as IPA even though their ABV is less than 4%!

The only example in which I detected "smokiness" is/was Belhaven and it is
not smokiness, but rather pronounced phenols,  probably a fermentation
bi-product and/or result of kettle caramalization.  I settled into
Caledonian /80, a clean and flavorful example, as my personal favorite for
extended consumption.  /60 examples were rare, /70 examples most common and
/80 examples ample.  Each with distinct flavors even of the same brand.  No
brewer in his/her right mind would use smoked malt for this style.  Traquair
House makes an unusual example which is very dark in color, having roasty
notes more akin to a Brown Ale and is available only on the hand pump at
Traquair Arms Hotel near the castle.  I was served a pint from a firkin
which had gone sour.  The hotel staff immediately tapped a new firkin and
served me free the rest of the evening with profound apologies.  A micro
brewery on the Isle of Skye makes examples brewed with bog myrtle and with
heather.  They are overattenuated and awful tasting beers.  Another micro
from Orkney
also makes examples of heather ale which is usually
sold in tourist shops.  Again, it tastes awful.  The native population
doesn't seem to know squat about their beer culture and seem to prefer
American Budweiser at $3.00 a bottle, or lagers served with nitrogen.  If it
wasn't for
CAMRA, the style would perish.

Norman Dickenson

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Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/17/01 - 04/18/01 Different Beers, same category
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I just sent 2 different versions of the same substyle of  beer to a
competition this winter. Different grain bills, different hops, different
yeasts but same OG, same IBU and just slightly different color.  I needed
to be able to tell the beers apart on the score sheets so that I could get
recipe feedback.  So my plan was to enter with two different versions of my
name. I wanted to make sure that any points earned in the New England
Homebrewer of the Year tally went to me so I used my name, not some one
else's .   I made a note on the entry
form that I was doing this. The name of the beer wasn't asked for.
 Unforturnately it didn't really work out.  One
beer won first & the other placed out of the points.  My name on the list of
winners led me to think I knew which one had won.  When the score sheets
came back they only had numbers on them.  No way to tell the difference.
When I was asked for my recipe the organizers looked to see which name was
the name I had used for the first place beer.  I was told that the winning
beer was under the name that had received fewer points.  Oh well, I know
which beer I think was better so I assumed it was the winner.
 So, as a brewer  I think that means two separate entry forms and checks,
not just a note written on the one entry form for both beers.
As a competition organizer I would be happiest seeing two separate entry
forms/checks so that the beers get logged in separately as though it were
two
different brewers. After the competition if the addresses  are the same it
would be noticed and the sheets could go back in one envelope with the name
written on the cover sheet.   Lots of notes from multiple brewers asking to
have brews entered separately from just one entry form is more work and
easier to screw up.
Anne Whyte


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Subject: Spirit of Free Beer IX
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:34:19 -0400
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Hi,
    Just a quick, crass, commercial plug for Spirit of Free Beer IX :-)
See our web page at http://www.burp.org/SoFB2001/ for more details.

         The Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) annual Spirit of Free
Beer has become one of the best, largest, and most fun competitions on the
east coast. (How's that for hyperbole?)  Each year, homebrewers throughout
the country submit their best beers to this competition, trying to win their
share of the lavishly rich prizes for which this competition is known. Get
your entries in for fantastic prizes, and a chance to qualify for the MCAB.

         Quality judging is the hallmark of the Spirit of Free Beer and is
our top priority. Quality judging means that you get the best possible
feedback for your entries.  BURP recruits qualified BJCP judges. Every entry
will be judged by at least two BJCP judges, and three will judge most
entries. If you are interested in judging, and are BJCP-qualified, please
contact our Judge Coordinator, Tom Cannon, at judges at burp.org

         If you do not have web-access, but somehow are reading this email,
and would like a snail-mail package, please send me your request at
Andy at burp.org

        Oh, and just to make this posting relevent to the previous JudgeNet
threads, let me make two comments:
1. Professional brewers can enter our contest, but only if they made
homebrew. I don't care who brewed the beer, as long as it's homebrew.

2. You can enter multiple entries in the same subcategory in our contest.
It's a nuisance for the registar (which is why a lot of contests do not
allow this), but we don't mind making his job harder :-) Seriously though,
if you are trying to compare different recipes or processes for the same
style you brew, then getting good feed-back is something you may really
want. And BURP aims to please.


Cheers,

Andy Anderson
2001 SoFB Contest Organizer

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Table of contents
------------------------------------------------------
Re: Amateurs or professionals? (phil sides jr)
re:professional or amateur (Nathaniel P. Lansing)
Re: Amateurs or professionals? (Joel Plutchak)
"Pro" brewers (Spencer W Thomas)
Re: Digest for the period 04/18/01 - 04/19/01 (XZYMURGIST at aol.com)
Re: Different Beers, Same Category? (Bill Wible)
Scottish Ale (Norman Dickenson)
Re: Digest for the period 04/17/01 - 04/18/01 Different Beers, same category (Anne at Vermont Homebrew)
Spirit of Free Beer IX (Anderson Andy W NSSC)
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Bill Wible Asked:

>For the purposes of homebrew competitions, can or
>should someone be considered a 'professional' brewer
>even if they don't make their living brewing and
>selling beer?

>How about a writer who writes exclusively about beer?
>Should Michael Jackson, Charlie Papazian, George Fix,
>Greg Noonan, Ray Daniels, Roger Protz or any other
>such person be allowed to enter beers in a homebrew
>competition?**  Or would/should these people be
>considered pros?  Wouldn't it seem that any of
>these guys has the same knowledge as a professional
>brewer, if not more?

If they brew the beer at home and not in a commercial facility they are
homebrewing irrespective of what they do for a living.  I have never seen
competition rules that disqualified a professional brewer or allied trade
member.  I have however seen prohibitions on beer produced in a commercial
facility (a B.O.P. for example).

I write about beer myself and honestly do not see the correlation between
writing about beer and being God's gift to homebrewing.  I'll make myself an
example in the following hypothetical:  I am a former powerlifter and
American football player and in my denial that I am too old to still do so,
I play Division 1 rugby now.  I *could* be the world's foremost authority on
ballet and write great books on the subject.  This in no way would make me a
great dancer largely due to the fact that I weigh about 180 pounds more than
the average ballet dancer.  Now I am off on a tangent...

I guess my point is being an expert and being the best do  not necessarily
go hand-in-hand.  The list of authors above is a list of good teachers and
good writers and in some cases both.  These are both attributes of people
who are experts.  They may be good homebrewers too, but that should not
disqualify them from competing.

Phil Sides
Concord, NH

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From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
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Bill Wiblw asked,
>>Should Michael Jackson, Charlie Papazian, George Fix,
Greg Noonan, Ray Daniels, Roger Protz or any other
such person be allowed to enter beers in a homebrew
competition?**<<

  According to the *rules, yes, if the beer is brewed at home.
Specifically these people mentioned freely have shared their
knowledge with the homebrew community and if you haven't
read and applied that knowledge to improve your brewing then
only *you have given them some unseen advantage. =

  I would be rather honored to have any of these people submit
beers to our competition; that would indicate they respect and =

trust the club's judge's abilities.

N.P Lansing
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Bill Wible writes:
>For the purposes of homebrew competitions, can or should someone be
>considered a 'professional' brewer even if they don't make their
>living brewing and selling beer?  ...Michael Jackson, Charlie Papazian,
>George Fix, Greg Noonan, Ray Daniels, Roger Protz...

   The only things that differentiates homebrew from commercial
brew are where the brewing is accomplished and who paid for the
equipment and materials.  (Well, taxes and the federal govt figure
in there too. ;-)  If Greg Noonan brews a beer in the Vermont Pub &
Brewery, it's not homebrew.  If he brews a batch in his kitchen,
it's homebrew.
   In our competition (plug: Boneyard Brew-Off, 7th Annual on
June 2 this year) we are pleased to see entries from George Fix
almost every year.  And if Charlie still finds enough time to brew,
we'd enjoy seeing an entry or two from him, too (though the AHA
detractors would probably find something wrong with that).
 
Joel Plutchak
Champaign IL

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As I've seen it, the usual prohibition on "pro brewers" has not to do
with their occupation as such, but on how/where the beer was brewed.
If a "pro brewer" makes a 5 gallon batch at home in the kitchen (or
garage or driveway...) then that batch is "homebrew."  On the other
hand, if s/he uses the pilot system at work to make the batch, then it
is not "homebrew," having been made in a pro brewery.  Some
competitions also exclude beers made at a BYO place.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)
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In a message dated 4/19/01 1:04:55 AM, beerking1 at juno.com writes:

<< 
I have enjoyed Belhaven for decades. Probably my first introduction to
Scottish Style Ales. I have never detected anything I would consider
smokiness, prominent or otherwise. >>

Coincidentally, I came home yesterday to find that my wife had bought some 
Belhaven, which I had not had in a number of years.  After my first sip, I 
was surprised to detect a fairly prominent smokiness.  I did not remember 
Belhaven as being particularly smokey in the past.

Just an anecdote to add to the discussion.

Roman Davis
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Subject: Re: Different Beers, Same Category?
From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net>
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If I understand what beerking says below, I am only "allowed"
to enter one beer in any given category.  I couldn't disagree
more.  First, I've never seen any rule in any competition that
said this.  Second, why should I have to "decide" which beer
out of multiple batches from the same style is the "best", and
only enter that one?  I'll ask again - shouldn't I be allowed
to get credit for ALL the beers I brew, the same way everybody
else wants to?
 
You guys want it both ways.  You're saying its fine to enter
the same beer in multiple categories, and even as something
other than what you intended to brew it as.  You want to try
to get credit for a beer in a style you didn't even intend to
brew.  But you're so scared somebody else might try to "cheat"
you out of one of your ribbons that you then want to turn around
and tell me that its wrong for someone to enter more than 1 beer
in the same style, even when its what they did intend to brew,
and the batches were different.

Like I said, I couldn't disagree more.

Bill

>--------------------------------------------------------
>From: beerking1 at juno.com  Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:03:08 -0400
>Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/17/01 - 04/18/01
>
>Regarding Bill's comment below, part of the "challenge" of entering your
>beer in a competition is deciding which one in a given category has a
>better chance of winning (or which one you would rather have
>comments/feedback on!).

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The recent discussion of smokiness in Scottish Ales is
most interesting.  Having had the pleasure of an extended
vacation throughout Scotland not long ago, I had the
opportunity to sample many different examples served
both with nitrogen and from the handpump including
examples from the following brands:  McEwans,
Youngers, Caledonian, Waverly, Belhaven, Maclay and
a number of microbreweries which can make some
interesting and off-the-wall examples.  It is true than many examples have
slid towards the English Bitters style
with more aggressive hopping  and ester development. It was amusing that
some examples were labeled as IPA even though their ABV is less than 4%!

The only example in which I detected "smokiness" is/was Belhaven and it is
not smokiness, but rather pronounced phenols,  probably a fermentation
bi-product and/or result of kettle caramalization.  I settled into
Caledonian /80, a clean and flavorful example, as my personal favorite for
extended consumption.  /60 examples were rare, /70 examples most common and
/80 examples ample.  Each with distinct flavors even of the same brand.  No
brewer in his/her right mind would use smoked malt for this style.  Traquair
House makes an unusual example which is very dark in color, having roasty
notes more akin to a Brown Ale and is available only on the hand pump at
Traquair Arms Hotel near the castle.  I was served a pint from a firkin
which had gone sour.  The hotel staff immediately tapped a new firkin and
served me free the rest of the evening with profound apologies.  A micro
brewery on the Isle of Skye makes examples brewed with bog myrtle and with
heather.  They are overattenuated and awful tasting beers.  Another micro
from Orkney
also makes examples of heather ale which is usually
sold in tourist shops.  Again, it tastes awful.  The native population
doesn't seem to know squat about their beer culture and seem to prefer
American Budweiser at $3.00 a bottle, or lagers served with nitrogen.  If it
wasn't for
CAMRA, the style would perish.

Norman Dickenson

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I just sent 2 different versions of the same substyle of  beer to a
competition this winter. Different grain bills, different hops, different
yeasts but same OG, same IBU and just slightly different color.  I needed
to be able to tell the beers apart on the score sheets so that I could get
recipe feedback.  So my plan was to enter with two different versions of my
name. I wanted to make sure that any points earned in the New England
Homebrewer of the Year tally went to me so I used my name, not some one
else's .   I made a note on the entry
form that I was doing this. The name of the beer wasn't asked for.
 Unforturnately it didn't really work out.  One
beer won first & the other placed out of the points.  My name on the list of
winners led me to think I knew which one had won.  When the score sheets
came back they only had numbers on them.  No way to tell the difference.
When I was asked for my recipe the organizers looked to see which name was
the name I had used for the first place beer.  I was told that the winning
beer was under the name that had received fewer points.  Oh well, I know
which beer I think was better so I assumed it was the winner.
 So, as a brewer  I think that means two separate entry forms and checks,
not just a note written on the one entry form for both beers.
As a competition organizer I would be happiest seeing two separate entry
forms/checks so that the beers get logged in separately as though it were
two
different brewers. After the competition if the addresses  are the same it
would be noticed and the sheets could go back in one envelope with the name
written on the cover sheet.   Lots of notes from multiple brewers asking to
have brews entered separately from just one entry form is more work and
easier to screw up.
Anne Whyte


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Subject: Spirit of Free Beer IX
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Hi,
    Just a quick, crass, commercial plug for Spirit of Free Beer IX :-)
See our web page at http://www.burp.org/SoFB2001/ for more details.

         The Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) annual Spirit of Free
Beer has become one of the best, largest, and most fun competitions on the
east coast. (How's that for hyperbole?)  Each year, homebrewers throughout
the country submit their best beers to this competition, trying to win their
share of the lavishly rich prizes for which this competition is known. Get
your entries in for fantastic prizes, and a chance to qualify for the MCAB.

         Quality judging is the hallmark of the Spirit of Free Beer and is
our top priority. Quality judging means that you get the best possible
feedback for your entries.  BURP recruits qualified BJCP judges. Every entry
will be judged by at least two BJCP judges, and three will judge most
entries. If you are interested in judging, and are BJCP-qualified, please
contact our Judge Coordinator, Tom Cannon, at judges at burp.org

         If you do not have web-access, but somehow are reading this email,
and would like a snail-mail package, please send me your request at
Andy at burp.org

        Oh, and just to make this posting relevent to the previous JudgeNet
threads, let me make two comments:
1. Professional brewers can enter our contest, but only if they made
homebrew. I don't care who brewed the beer, as long as it's homebrew.

2. You can enter multiple entries in the same subcategory in our contest.
It's a nuisance for the registar (which is why a lot of contests do not
allow this), but we don't mind making his job harder :-) Seriously though,
if you are trying to compare different recipes or processes for the same
style you brew, then getting good feed-back is something you may really
want. And BURP aims to please.


Cheers,

Andy Anderson
2001 SoFB Contest Organizer

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