Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA17808 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.147.1.144]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA00744 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3C55eU19670 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 04/11/01 - 04/12/01 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:04:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 (Anne at Vermont Homebrew) Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 (beerking1 at juno.com) Re:Mead Age & Scoring (JazzboBob at aol.com) Re: Mead (David Sherfey) Same beer, same judges, different comments (Dion Hollenbeck) --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.246]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78012C9C10 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:40:39 -0400 Received: from vtbrew (pool-63.52.89.182.cmbr.grid.net [63.52.89.182]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA29302 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001701c0c206$d92a6340$b659343f at vtbrew> From: "Anne at Vermont Homebrew" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest References: Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:40:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Call for judges! The 10th Annual Green Mountain Homebrew Competition in Burlington Vermont! We are an AHA registered competition in the heart of the Green Mountains. Please visit our website at http://www.mashers.org for all the details. You can email me, Anne Whyte at vtbrew at together.net if you have any questions. We judge at the historic Ethan Allen Homestead. There are lots of things for the family to do while you are judging....tour the Teddy Bear Factory....Ben & Jerry's.....and more! Please come up and join us on National Homebrew Day. Thanks, hope to see you. --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from m10.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.73]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78062C9F71 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:29:23 -0400 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"extssRca8ocTdEyjEoV6maVNz3JS6QEob6NmU6vKjkPA4Fki1qsIgA=="> Received: (from beerking1 at juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F2P9RDAM; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:28:23 EDT To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Cc: judge at synchro.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:25:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 Message-ID: <20010410.223104.-16458017.0.beerking1 at juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,9-10,22-23,30-36,38-39,41-102 From: beerking1 at juno.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message While I would agree with David's comments in principle, I would caution judges to be careful, and not get too self confident about such judgements. Some of the samecomparisonss can be made for Barley Wines, but there are so many variables that a judge can never be sure. To take points off, and justify them as being due to the mead (or beer) not being "developed" is taking a dangerous route, IMHO. Worse case scenario, a judge deducts 6-8 points and tells the brewer that his mead is not developed, and needs more aging, but it turns out the mead has other problems which are being misinterpreted, and is in fact 4-5 years old. My personal philosophy regarding judging is that the judge must judge with a certain humility. One can never be sure you interpretations of what you are tasting are 100% correct, even less so the cause of what you are perceiving. Judging beer or mead is a VERY subjective task, try as hard as the judge might to keep it not so. Differences in perception could come down to something as simple as what you had for lunch, or the temperature of the room. I always try to give the brewer the benefit of the doubt, and avoid definitive statements about process. IMHO, it is much more constructive to provide SUGGESTIONS as to the source of the flaw being discussed, and possible solutions. I think many, if not all of us have gotten at least one score sheet back where a judge was certain what was wrong with the beer process, and turned out to be dead wrong. IMHO, it is far more constructive to tell the brewer that "this beer has a somewhat harsh, cider like character. If you are using extract and corn sugar, try to keep the corn sugar to less than 25% of the total fermentables." Than "stop using so much corn sugar, it gives the beer a harsh cidery flavor. Better yet, eliminate the corn sugar, and go to all grain if possible. At least try all malt extract." I have seen the second set of comments on the score sheet of a friend's all-grain beer! My 2 cents. Lyle C. Brown (Gee, it has been a LOONNGG time since we developed a thread with much response and longevity on this forum.) On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:02:57 -0400 "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" writes: > Table of contents > ------------------------------------------------------ > The Value of Aging in Meads (David Sherfey) > > -------------------------------------------------------- > From: David Sherfey Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:19:52 -0400 > Subject: The Value of Aging in Meads > > > I would like to open up a topic for discussion. There is a change > that > takes place in meads over time that can greatly improve the aroma, > flavor, > body, mouthfeel, and finish. Recipe and process can certainly have > an > impact on how long this flavor development takes, but there is a > difference > between soft and developed meads. > > Two questions: > How much is this worth in scoring? > Can this place a limit on how much a young mead scores? > > I like to use a hypothetical example in discussing this with new > judges > that compares the same sweet mead as a 1 year old mead, and a four > year old > mead. The young one will very likely have a cloying soft sweetness > that is > one-dimensional and tiring on the palate, and the other will have a > firm > crisp flavor with depth and compels you to drink more. These two > meads > might score very differently when compared in the same competition. > > Using the BJCP score sheet as a guide, and detracting points for not > being > "excellent" this could mean 6 points between aroma, flavor, and > drinkability. I would also think that flavor development is a part > of a > "very good" mead so this could be worth additional points depending > on how > the judge looks at it. Words used on the BJCP Judge Instructions > sheet > that might refer to this effect are "subtle or intangible details," > > "specialness or magic," "great character," and "hard-to-define > magic." > > For the sake of discussion and to provide a target for everyone to > shoot > at, I will display my own personal bias on the subject. The highest > that a > soft mead with otherwise excellent characteristics can score is > 41-42 points. > > Fire away! > > David Sherfey > Warwick, NY > > --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78072CA04E for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:09:30 -0400 Received: from JazzboBob at aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id u.c3.f958d1b (1840) for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:09:07 -0400 (EDT) From: JazzboBob at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:09:06 EDT Subject: Re:Mead Age & Scoring To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown sub 104 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I enjoy brewing, drinking and judging meads and have won several awards at the local and national level. I would evaluate and judge a mead on it's intrinsic style, appearance, and taste regardless of it's age. If it's good, it's a winner as far as I'm concerned. The type and taste of mead (strength - sweet/dry - spiced - fruit - honey variety) all are influenced by age. There simply are too many variables in evaluating meads to arbitrarily put a point limitation on an evaluation because of an age. I find that lower gravity meads, below OG 90 -100 are best in their younger state. Meads over 110 can stand the test of time and evolve into more complex flavors. A lot has to do with the alcohol level of the mead and the residual honey sweetness. I had a young sweet metheglin (6 months old) win a silver medal in last year's AHA Nationals. The judges comments do reflect on the sweetness being a bit much and the spices being too strong. However, I really enjoyed this mead when it was young and fresh. The aggressive spices played against the sweetness of the honey. I personally find that it is less interesting now, a year later, because it has dried up a bit and the spices have faded. It doesn't show signs of oxidation. It's more like a subtle blending of the spices and honey have developed into a smoother tasting mead. Now I have a friend who just loves that extra bite/edge that Johnny Walker Red Label has compared to Black. The Black Label is aged longer and indeed is smoother, but it's a trade off in taste that I can understand and it isn't something that can be qualified as being superior by everyone's taste. SO the same is true about meads. I really tend to like the fresh honey aroma that a youthful mead can exude and would judge and evaluate a mead according to how good it is regardless of it's age. I also won the gold ribbon in last year's AHA National with a 1 year old Elderberry Mead. Once again, I enjoyed this one more last year then this year. I remember the fruit being rich, strong, and aromatic when it was young. The honey was all there too. Now, it tastes more like an aged wine. It's very nicely blended and smooth, but not as up front with the taste and aroma. It even needs to sit and breath a bit in the glass in order to open up. These recipes are printed in Zymurgy Vol. 23/No5 and Vol. 24/No 1. Perhaps your question should be forwarded to the Mead Lover's Digest as well. Bob Grossman > > I would like to open up a topic for discussion. There is a change that > takes place in meads over time that can greatly improve the aroma, flavor, > body, mouthfeel, and finish. Recipe and process can certainly have an > impact on how long this flavor development takes, but there is a difference > between soft and developed meads. > > Two questions: > How much is this worth in scoring? > Can this place a limit on how much a young mead scores? > --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from host.warwick.net ([204.255.24.254]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78152CAE0B for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:01:38 -0400 Received: from 1fvl601.warwick.net (viruswall1.warwick.net [204.255.24.159]) by host.warwick.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3BB1aJ249295 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010411051338.00a8ba60 at mail.warwick.net> X-Sender: u1014856 at mail.warwick.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:01:18 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: David Sherfey Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Mead In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jay Ankeney writes... >I'm not exactly sure, but it sounds as if you are suggesting that a mead >judge detract from the score if he/she thinks the mead is too young. Isn't >this adding an additional personal bias to the judging? Shouldn't the entry >be judged on its own merits? Well, I think that I have already admitted my "bias," but this comes as a result of experience and training. Every book I have on the subject mentions the *merits* of allowing a mead to age, or mature. The best description of aging that I have in my mead library is from page 76 of "Making Mead" by Roger Morse, where he briefly discusses the chemistry, benefits, methods, and time differences between light meads / dark meads / sweet meads / meads with more alcohol, and then mentions proper aging temperature. He indicates that aging leads to "improvement." So, I will turn the question around.....is this one of the merits that should be used to evaluate meads in competition? >One (of the many) things I have learned from your own mead making skills is >the fine art of blending meads for competitions. Wouldn't that obviate your >concern? Hown could the judge evaluate the age of a blended mead? Thanks for the kind words, Jay.... If there is a way to blend an immature mead into a mature one, I think there are commercial ears out there willing to listen! I don't know how blending can make the change that time does, but to some extent the effects of youth or old age can be tempered by blending. The result of this, however, would in the best of cases be noticeably different from an immature mead. It is this *difference,* whether blended or not, that I am interested in. Should it be considered in competition judging and to what extent? I think that my use of the word "young," etc. may be confusing the issue and that "maturity" would be better for this discussion. David Sherfey Warwick, NY --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from relay1.pair.com ([209.68.1.20]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78192CB538 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:00:12 -0400 Received: (qmail 23940 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2001 14:58:16 -0000 Received: from softdnserror (HELO WCDIONH) (12.147.2.229) by relay1.pair.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 14:58:16 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 12.147.2.229 Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" From: "Dion Hollenbeck" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Same beer, same judges, different comments Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:56:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0c297$97ac0fe0$a502010a at corp.wingcast.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I just had an interesting thing happen at a competition. With the permission of the organizer, we bent the rules a little bit and entered the same beer twice, once as a smoked porter and once as a smoked foreign stout. The panel was handled by a single pair of judges who judged the beer as a porter as 8th in the flight and as a foreign stout as 10th in the flight. While both judges correctly identified the beer as a better porter than a foreign stout, I was a little surprised to see that the comments on aroma, appearance, flavor, mouthfeel, etc. differed when one judge tasted it as one style from when the same judge tasted it as a different style. I would have thought that everything except the scoring and the overall impression would have been the same for the same judge. I would tend to discount any differences between the bottles since this beer was keg conditioned and counter pressure filled only a few weeks before the competition. Has anyone done any studies on judges judging the same beer differently? Or does anyone have any enlightening comments on the subject? One thing that comes to mind is that when a judge reads the style guidelines for a particular style, it "predisposes" that judge to find those characteristics in the beer, even if they may not be present. -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hdb.org/hollen --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA17808 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.147.1.144]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA00744 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.105]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3C55eU19670 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 04/11/01 - 04/12/01 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:04:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 (Anne at Vermont Homebrew) Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 (beerking1 at juno.com) Re:Mead Age & Scoring (JazzboBob at aol.com) Re: Mead (David Sherfey) Same beer, same judges, different comments (Dion Hollenbeck) --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.246]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78012C9C10 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:40:39 -0400 Received: from vtbrew (pool-63.52.89.182.cmbr.grid.net [63.52.89.182]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA29302 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001701c0c206$d92a6340$b659343f at vtbrew> From: "Anne at Vermont Homebrew" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest References: Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:40:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Call for judges! The 10th Annual Green Mountain Homebrew Competition in Burlington Vermont! We are an AHA registered competition in the heart of the Green Mountains. Please visit our website at http://www.mashers.org for all the details. You can email me, Anne Whyte at vtbrew at together.net if you have any questions. We judge at the historic Ethan Allen Homestead. There are lots of things for the family to do while you are judging....tour the Teddy Bear Factory....Ben & Jerry's.....and more! Please come up and join us on National Homebrew Day. Thanks, hope to see you. --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from m10.boston.juno.com ([64.136.24.73]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78062C9F71 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:29:23 -0400 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"extssRca8ocTdEyjEoV6maVNz3JS6QEob6NmU6vKjkPA4Fki1qsIgA=="> Received: (from beerking1 at juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id F2P9RDAM; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:28:23 EDT To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Cc: judge at synchro.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:25:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/09/01 - 04/10/01 Message-ID: <20010410.223104.-16458017.0.beerking1 at juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,9-10,22-23,30-36,38-39,41-102 From: beerking1 at juno.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message While I would agree with David's comments in principle, I would caution judges to be careful, and not get too self confident about such judgements. Some of the samecomparisonss can be made for Barley Wines, but there are so many variables that a judge can never be sure. To take points off, and justify them as being due to the mead (or beer) not being "developed" is taking a dangerous route, IMHO. Worse case scenario, a judge deducts 6-8 points and tells the brewer that his mead is not developed, and needs more aging, but it turns out the mead has other problems which are being misinterpreted, and is in fact 4-5 years old. My personal philosophy regarding judging is that the judge must judge with a certain humility. One can never be sure you interpretations of what you are tasting are 100% correct, even less so the cause of what you are perceiving. Judging beer or mead is a VERY subjective task, try as hard as the judge might to keep it not so. Differences in perception could come down to something as simple as what you had for lunch, or the temperature of the room. I always try to give the brewer the benefit of the doubt, and avoid definitive statements about process. IMHO, it is much more constructive to provide SUGGESTIONS as to the source of the flaw being discussed, and possible solutions. I think many, if not all of us have gotten at least one score sheet back where a judge was certain what was wrong with the beer process, and turned out to be dead wrong. IMHO, it is far more constructive to tell the brewer that "this beer has a somewhat harsh, cider like character. If you are using extract and corn sugar, try to keep the corn sugar to less than 25% of the total fermentables." Than "stop using so much corn sugar, it gives the beer a harsh cidery flavor. Better yet, eliminate the corn sugar, and go to all grain if possible. At least try all malt extract." I have seen the second set of comments on the score sheet of a friend's all-grain beer! My 2 cents. Lyle C. Brown (Gee, it has been a LOONNGG time since we developed a thread with much response and longevity on this forum.) On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:02:57 -0400 "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" writes: > Table of contents > ------------------------------------------------------ > The Value of Aging in Meads (David Sherfey) > > -------------------------------------------------------- > From: David Sherfey Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:19:52 -0400 > Subject: The Value of Aging in Meads > > > I would like to open up a topic for discussion. There is a change > that > takes place in meads over time that can greatly improve the aroma, > flavor, > body, mouthfeel, and finish. Recipe and process can certainly have > an > impact on how long this flavor development takes, but there is a > difference > between soft and developed meads. > > Two questions: > How much is this worth in scoring? > Can this place a limit on how much a young mead scores? > > I like to use a hypothetical example in discussing this with new > judges > that compares the same sweet mead as a 1 year old mead, and a four > year old > mead. The young one will very likely have a cloying soft sweetness > that is > one-dimensional and tiring on the palate, and the other will have a > firm > crisp flavor with depth and compels you to drink more. These two > meads > might score very differently when compared in the same competition. > > Using the BJCP score sheet as a guide, and detracting points for not > being > "excellent" this could mean 6 points between aroma, flavor, and > drinkability. I would also think that flavor development is a part > of a > "very good" mead so this could be worth additional points depending > on how > the judge looks at it. Words used on the BJCP Judge Instructions > sheet > that might refer to this effect are "subtle or intangible details," > > "specialness or magic," "great character," and "hard-to-define > magic." > > For the sake of discussion and to provide a target for everyone to > shoot > at, I will display my own personal bias on the subject. The highest > that a > soft mead with otherwise excellent characteristics can score is > 41-42 points. > > Fire away! > > David Sherfey > Warwick, NY > > --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com ([64.12.136.6]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78072CA04E for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:09:30 -0400 Received: from JazzboBob at aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id u.c3.f958d1b (1840) for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:09:07 -0400 (EDT) From: JazzboBob at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:09:06 EDT Subject: Re:Mead Age & Scoring To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown sub 104 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I enjoy brewing, drinking and judging meads and have won several awards at the local and national level. I would evaluate and judge a mead on it's intrinsic style, appearance, and taste regardless of it's age. If it's good, it's a winner as far as I'm concerned. The type and taste of mead (strength - sweet/dry - spiced - fruit - honey variety) all are influenced by age. There simply are too many variables in evaluating meads to arbitrarily put a point limitation on an evaluation because of an age. I find that lower gravity meads, below OG 90 -100 are best in their younger state. Meads over 110 can stand the test of time and evolve into more complex flavors. A lot has to do with the alcohol level of the mead and the residual honey sweetness. I had a young sweet metheglin (6 months old) win a silver medal in last year's AHA Nationals. The judges comments do reflect on the sweetness being a bit much and the spices being too strong. However, I really enjoyed this mead when it was young and fresh. The aggressive spices played against the sweetness of the honey. I personally find that it is less interesting now, a year later, because it has dried up a bit and the spices have faded. It doesn't show signs of oxidation. It's more like a subtle blending of the spices and honey have developed into a smoother tasting mead. Now I have a friend who just loves that extra bite/edge that Johnny Walker Red Label has compared to Black. The Black Label is aged longer and indeed is smoother, but it's a trade off in taste that I can understand and it isn't something that can be qualified as being superior by everyone's taste. SO the same is true about meads. I really tend to like the fresh honey aroma that a youthful mead can exude and would judge and evaluate a mead according to how good it is regardless of it's age. I also won the gold ribbon in last year's AHA National with a 1 year old Elderberry Mead. Once again, I enjoyed this one more last year then this year. I remember the fruit being rich, strong, and aromatic when it was young. The honey was all there too. Now, it tastes more like an aged wine. It's very nicely blended and smooth, but not as up front with the taste and aroma. It even needs to sit and breath a bit in the glass in order to open up. These recipes are printed in Zymurgy Vol. 23/No5 and Vol. 24/No 1. Perhaps your question should be forwarded to the Mead Lover's Digest as well. Bob Grossman > > I would like to open up a topic for discussion. There is a change that > takes place in meads over time that can greatly improve the aroma, flavor, > body, mouthfeel, and finish. Recipe and process can certainly have an > impact on how long this flavor development takes, but there is a difference > between soft and developed meads. > > Two questions: > How much is this worth in scoring? > Can this place a limit on how much a young mead scores? > --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from host.warwick.net ([204.255.24.254]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78152CAE0B for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:01:38 -0400 Received: from 1fvl601.warwick.net (viruswall1.warwick.net [204.255.24.159]) by host.warwick.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3BB1aJ249295 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010411051338.00a8ba60 at mail.warwick.net> X-Sender: u1014856 at mail.warwick.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:01:18 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: David Sherfey Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Mead In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Jay Ankeney writes... >I'm not exactly sure, but it sounds as if you are suggesting that a mead >judge detract from the score if he/she thinks the mead is too young. Isn't >this adding an additional personal bias to the judging? Shouldn't the entry >be judged on its own merits? Well, I think that I have already admitted my "bias," but this comes as a result of experience and training. Every book I have on the subject mentions the *merits* of allowing a mead to age, or mature. The best description of aging that I have in my mead library is from page 76 of "Making Mead" by Roger Morse, where he briefly discusses the chemistry, benefits, methods, and time differences between light meads / dark meads / sweet meads / meads with more alcohol, and then mentions proper aging temperature. He indicates that aging leads to "improvement." So, I will turn the question around.....is this one of the merits that should be used to evaluate meads in competition? >One (of the many) things I have learned from your own mead making skills is >the fine art of blending meads for competitions. Wouldn't that obviate your >concern? Hown could the judge evaluate the age of a blended mead? Thanks for the kind words, Jay.... If there is a way to blend an immature mead into a mature one, I think there are commercial ears out there willing to listen! I don't know how blending can make the change that time does, but to some extent the effects of youth or old age can be tempered by blending. The result of this, however, would in the best of cases be noticeably different from an immature mead. It is this *difference,* whether blended or not, that I am interested in. Should it be considered in competition judging and to what extent? I think that my use of the word "young," etc. may be confusing the issue and that "maturity" would be better for this discussion. David Sherfey Warwick, NY --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from relay1.pair.com ([209.68.1.20]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC78192CB538 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:00:12 -0400 Received: (qmail 23940 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2001 14:58:16 -0000 Received: from softdnserror (HELO WCDIONH) (12.147.2.229) by relay1.pair.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 14:58:16 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 12.147.2.229 Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" From: "Dion Hollenbeck" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Same beer, same judges, different comments Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:56:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0c297$97ac0fe0$a502010a at corp.wingcast.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I just had an interesting thing happen at a competition. With the permission of the organizer, we bent the rules a little bit and entered the same beer twice, once as a smoked porter and once as a smoked foreign stout. The panel was handled by a single pair of judges who judged the beer as a porter as 8th in the flight and as a foreign stout as 10th in the flight. While both judges correctly identified the beer as a better porter than a foreign stout, I was a little surprised to see that the comments on aroma, appearance, flavor, mouthfeel, etc. differed when one judge tasted it as one style from when the same judge tasted it as a different style. I would have thought that everything except the scoring and the overall impression would have been the same for the same judge. I would tend to discount any differences between the bottles since this beer was keg conditioned and counter pressure filled only a few weeks before the competition. Has anyone done any studies on judges judging the same beer differently? Or does anyone have any enlightening comments on the subject? One thing that comes to mind is that when a judge reads the style guidelines for a particular style, it "predisposes" that judge to find those characteristics in the beer, even if they may not be present. -- Dion Hollenbeck Email: hollen at woodsprite.com Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com Brewing Page: http://hdb.org/hollen --Next_Part_SYNC78332CC4A4--