Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA25320 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.109]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA19899 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:04:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 07/17/00 - 07/18/00 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:02:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: AHA rules & styles (JazzboBob at aol.com) Re: To Rebrew or not to Rebrew (Jeff Renner) --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from imo-r11.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.65]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC13751C7CAD for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:44:33 -0400 Received: from JazzboBob at aol.com by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.12.) id u.61.56c46a7 (8977) for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: JazzboBob at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: <61.56c46a7.26a3db17 at aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:44:23 EDT Subject: Re: AHA rules & styles To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 103 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Hello to all from a new reader who's been a brewer and judge for the past 10 years. I started receiving the Digest a few weeks ago and have enjoyed the running dialogue on several topics close to my heart. I'm glad to hear that the AHA allows rebrewing of beers for the second round. I'm probably like a lot of other old judges and brewers and wasn't aware of the new rule. As a judge and competitor I'm interested in evaluating or submitting the best brewed beer in it's best condition and it's a fact that freshness really counts. Obviously there is a varying amount of time delays between rounds of the Nationals and this greatly affects the beer. It is particularly exasperating because the second round comes late in the spring and quite often I find myself shipping in the middle of a heat wave. I know first hand from the second round score sheets of my beers and meads that they were "cooked" by UPS. I've tasted bottles from my first round batch that I had kept at home and were still fine and then received comments of flaws and problems that were totally due to heat and age conditions. So, I encourage any ambitious brewer that has won in the first round and would take the time to brew a fresh batch that is consistent with his/her first one to go ahead. Style category certification would be difficult to administer as discussed by Al. However, judges should have the integrity to recognize their knowledge and experience and position themselves on panels accordingly. We learn from experience and we all need to start at the beginning. Sure, I've had beer poorly scored by beginning judges and those unfamiliar with a style. It's part of the process. Sometimes I've seen my "final score" average ruined by one low grader and had a good beer not win. Other times the committee will toss out the odd 20something score when the two other judges gave me a 39 and 42 and give me a final 40 that won. I'd like to see the contest organizers and director of judges take more responsibility in supervising the various flights and judge panels. Make sure to mix up the experienced judges with the beginners. And make sure that the judges are talking and educating each other. Too often we fall into judging styles that we've done before with familiar faces. I'm always willing to try something new and learn. In addition to the Beer Style Series books, the 1991 Vol 14, No 4 Zymurgy is devoted to a composite article of all the traditional beer styles. It's a bit dated now, but still very useful. I've won the AHA Barleywine Gold in 1991 and 1999 and endorse the recent change to British and American substyles. I've brewed many strong olde ales ales and believe that there are differences between the barleywines. My feeling is that many folks haven't experimented, tasted and brewed as many barleywines as say something a bit more popular such as pale ales. Now there doesn't seem to be any question that American Pale Ale is a bit different from the British counterpart so when it comes to Barleywines it's a matter of opportunity of locating and brewing these big beers to develop a good working knowledge. American Barleywine should be brewed with American ingredients (grain,hops, yeast) and it will taste different then the same recipe brewed with imported British ingredients. This is as important to realize as the generalization that American BW's are more hopped and British BW's are maltier. My comments on Historic Ales will need to wait for another time. Bob Grossman --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu ([141.211.144.17]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC13931C7E9F for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:53:22 -0400 Received: from [207.75.179.195] (pm477-41.dialip.mich.net [207.75.179.195]) by changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu (8.9.3/3.2r) with ESMTP id RAA22751 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:53:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: nerenner at n.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:00:10 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: To Rebrew or not to Rebrew X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Brian J Walter wrote: >- A world class beer beer should be able to stand a month or two of aging > and still be drinkable. In other words, is a beer which ages more > gracefully not a better beer? It adds another facet where the brewer > has to have good control; handling and packaging the beer post-ferment. > A brewer who does this better has brewed a better beer. I would certainly nominate most lagers, particularly pale ones and any of ordinary strength, as not holding up well after lagering of normal time. They will continue to hold up better if kept at 32F than at warmer temps, but this is why Budweiser has the touted "born on" dates. The deterioration may well not be dramatic, but in my experience, over several months they will lose the distinctiveness that would make a winner. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA25320 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.109]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA19899 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:04:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 07/17/00 - 07/18/00 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:02:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: AHA rules & styles (JazzboBob at aol.com) Re: To Rebrew or not to Rebrew (Jeff Renner) --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from imo-r11.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.65]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC13751C7CAD for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:44:33 -0400 Received: from JazzboBob at aol.com by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.12.) id u.61.56c46a7 (8977) for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: JazzboBob at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: <61.56c46a7.26a3db17 at aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:44:23 EDT Subject: Re: AHA rules & styles To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 103 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Hello to all from a new reader who's been a brewer and judge for the past 10 years. I started receiving the Digest a few weeks ago and have enjoyed the running dialogue on several topics close to my heart. I'm glad to hear that the AHA allows rebrewing of beers for the second round. I'm probably like a lot of other old judges and brewers and wasn't aware of the new rule. As a judge and competitor I'm interested in evaluating or submitting the best brewed beer in it's best condition and it's a fact that freshness really counts. Obviously there is a varying amount of time delays between rounds of the Nationals and this greatly affects the beer. It is particularly exasperating because the second round comes late in the spring and quite often I find myself shipping in the middle of a heat wave. I know first hand from the second round score sheets of my beers and meads that they were "cooked" by UPS. I've tasted bottles from my first round batch that I had kept at home and were still fine and then received comments of flaws and problems that were totally due to heat and age conditions. So, I encourage any ambitious brewer that has won in the first round and would take the time to brew a fresh batch that is consistent with his/her first one to go ahead. Style category certification would be difficult to administer as discussed by Al. However, judges should have the integrity to recognize their knowledge and experience and position themselves on panels accordingly. We learn from experience and we all need to start at the beginning. Sure, I've had beer poorly scored by beginning judges and those unfamiliar with a style. It's part of the process. Sometimes I've seen my "final score" average ruined by one low grader and had a good beer not win. Other times the committee will toss out the odd 20something score when the two other judges gave me a 39 and 42 and give me a final 40 that won. I'd like to see the contest organizers and director of judges take more responsibility in supervising the various flights and judge panels. Make sure to mix up the experienced judges with the beginners. And make sure that the judges are talking and educating each other. Too often we fall into judging styles that we've done before with familiar faces. I'm always willing to try something new and learn. In addition to the Beer Style Series books, the 1991 Vol 14, No 4 Zymurgy is devoted to a composite article of all the traditional beer styles. It's a bit dated now, but still very useful. I've won the AHA Barleywine Gold in 1991 and 1999 and endorse the recent change to British and American substyles. I've brewed many strong olde ales ales and believe that there are differences between the barleywines. My feeling is that many folks haven't experimented, tasted and brewed as many barleywines as say something a bit more popular such as pale ales. Now there doesn't seem to be any question that American Pale Ale is a bit different from the British counterpart so when it comes to Barleywines it's a matter of opportunity of locating and brewing these big beers to develop a good working knowledge. American Barleywine should be brewed with American ingredients (grain,hops, yeast) and it will taste different then the same recipe brewed with imported British ingredients. This is as important to realize as the generalization that American BW's are more hopped and British BW's are maltier. My comments on Historic Ales will need to wait for another time. Bob Grossman --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu ([141.211.144.17]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC13931C7E9F for judge at synchro.com; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:53:22 -0400 Received: from [207.75.179.195] (pm477-41.dialip.mich.net [207.75.179.195]) by changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu (8.9.3/3.2r) with ESMTP id RAA22751 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:53:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: nerenner at n.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:00:10 -0400 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: To Rebrew or not to Rebrew X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Brian J Walter wrote: >- A world class beer beer should be able to stand a month or two of aging > and still be drinkable. In other words, is a beer which ages more > gracefully not a better beer? It adds another facet where the brewer > has to have good control; handling and packaging the beer post-ferment. > A brewer who does this better has brewed a better beer. I would certainly nominate most lagers, particularly pale ones and any of ordinary strength, as not holding up well after lagering of normal time. They will continue to hold up better if kept at 32F than at warmer temps, but this is why Budweiser has the touted "born on" dates. The deterioration may well not be dramatic, but in my experience, over several months they will lose the distinctiveness that would make a winner. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. --Next_Part_SYNC14011C7F74--