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Table of contents
------------------------------------------------------
AHA NHC rule change (Mark Tumarkin)
Dutch judging forms & AHA 2nd Round (Mark Tumarkin)
Style Certification/Education (larry matthews)
re:barleywines (Nathaniel P. Lansing)
RE: NHC rules change (Formanek, Joe)
To Rebrew or not to Rebrew (Brian J Walter - Brewing Chemist)
Spirit of Belgium III (Anderson Andy W NSSC)
Re: slap my knuckles (Tyce Heldenbrand)
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From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
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I posted a few days ago about asking for a rule change for the AHA Natl
Homebrew Competition in regard to being able to rebrew a batch for the second
round for styles that need to be fresh in order to be at their best. I talked
to Paul Gatza today and the rules no longer prohibit brewing a new batch. I
hadn't entered anything my self this year, but remembered that rule from a
couple of years ago. Apparently it was dropped,  so there is no problem if you
want to brew a fresh batch for the second round. So I guess I spoke too soon
on this without being sure of the rules. Sorry about that. But perhaps it was
a good thing anyhow if people now become aware of the possibility of rebrewing
for the second round.

Mark Tumarkin

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From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
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For those of you that are interested in seeing the Dutch jugding forms, my
email address is
mark_t at ix.netcom.com

On the topic of re-brewing for the 2nd round AHA; even though the AHA rules
now do allow brewers to brew a new batch, a lot of judges seem to agree that
there are a lot of old, tired beers going to the second round.  So perhaps
some education needs to be done to make brewers aware of the possibility (and
in some cases, advisability) of rebrewing.

This obviously is a responsibility of the AHA, not the BJCP.  As (according to
another current thread) the BJCP is not an educational organization. :>)  I
say this facetiously,  as even if education is not a organizational goal of
the BJCP, many volunteer judges are also offering educational services to
their club members and other brewers. Maybe we can start mentioning that
re-brewing for the NHC is possible and advisable. Hopefully, over time the 2nd
round beers will start improving (at least in this one respect).

Mark Tumarkin





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From: larry matthews <lmatt at ipass.net>
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     I don't really care if BJCP rewards judges with "style certification"
or not but I do believe we can conduct a program of continuing education
for those that want more information on each of the styles. When we begin
study for the BJCP test, there are several ways to begin organizing your
approach to the test and continued learning. I chose to breakdown the whole
process by beer styles. I prepared a two page "cheat sheet" for each style.
This way I had a systematic approach to the tasting sessions that our club
monitors (Mike Lelivelt and Craig Pepin) provided over the 4-5 months that
we met. The study sheets which can be expanded as needed could easily be
placed online within the BJCP site and slowly completed by a few volunteers
that express an interest in one or more styles. The site could become a
complete online approach to "style certification" on one level but also a
great tool for new brewers who want to begin the study for the BJCP
program. I have the document in a Word file if anyone is interested in
seeing it, please email me at lmatt at ipass.net. The guide is fairly simple
but serves as a great resource if you actually consult and continue to
expand on the readings that are/will be listed. 
    The approach is drawn from the same method that AHA has used in
providing us the "Classic Beer Style Series". I think that portion of AHA
contribution to brewing education is probably the single most important
function the organization has provided to us. Just having a compilation of
reading resources for a beer style listed all at one place would be
invaluable to our BJCP. Just as with our beer style committee work there
will always be a few who disagree but the idea is to have an approach to
our continued education that will help us to be better judges and brewers
and to help new brewers who submit their prized beers to competitions to
better understand the parameters under which we are judging their beer.
     I wouldn't worry about trying to assign judges to a flight at a
competition based upon their certification. Organizers already allow most
judges to choose the style of beer to judge that they feel most comfortable
with. This support from BJCP would allow our members to expand their
comfort zones and even brew a beer outside their usual styles. Ever time I
brew a different style from one I haven't brewed ever or in a long time, I
will consult my resources, try to update some old information, and then
formulate a recipe. Of course, all this time I have a beer in my hand.  
     Does the BJCP even have an Education Committee? If not, we ought to.
Although, I did fairly well on the BJCP test 4-5 years ago, I have
continued to learn since then and want to improve on my feedback to brewers
whose beers I judge. I believe the BJCP should have the same goal.
Continued education for us is the best method to obtain this goal.   
                              Larry Matthews
                              Carboy/Trub Clubs
                              Raleigh, NC
                              lmatt at ipass.net


At 01:00 AM 7/14/00 -0400, Al wrote:
>
>Even more finally... I *do* like the idea of style certification, but
>we would need three times the BJCP staff to make this kind of thing
>happen and in a volunteer organisation, that's very unlikely.  First,
>we would have to agree on what exactly is the style and what are
>representative beers.  Then we would have to start holding classes
>that would educate and certify attendees (again, imagine that mucky
>muck certifying others on Historical Beers).  Then we would need to keep
>track of credentials.  You think the job of assigning judges used to
>be difficult *without* style certification?  Think about it...
>
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From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
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AK responded: >> I've now convinced myself that even
100 IBUs can be malty in a big-enough beer.  Maybe *this* fact needs to b=
e
added into the guidelines to make it clearer?<<

 OK, I got the point across, I guess, in the long run. It's the
ambiguities that cause more problems than the errors. It is
hard (ie:impossible) for a judge to say "yumm, this beer is =

63 IBUs"  but the seperation of the IBU ranges for the two
types would help give the idea that there is a *perceived difference
between the two. American-big maltiness balanced toward strong
bitterness; British-big maltiness but evenly balanced with a firm but not=

abrupt bitterness.??
 Part of the problem is we *are talking about perceptions and
trying to get some agreement between varied palates can be =

a bit tough. Myself, I am diacetyl insensitive, I never get that
"sticky, cloying diacetyl" affect, so I know *not to comment on
diacetyl levels. Bitterness though is fairly easy to get agreement
on, though some people are 'supertasters' and are quite sensitive
to bitterness; certainly something easier to overcome than diacetyl
insensitivity.
 =

     A mans got to know his limitations.
 N.P. (Del) Lansing
   delbrew at compuserve.com
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Hello, all!
Since we're on the subject of NHC rules changes, here's a quick topic for
discussion that I'd like to submit to the collective: current point
structure at the NHC.  Presently, winning beers at both the 1st and 2nd
round are valued at 6 pts, 3 pts and 1 pt for 1st, 2nd and 3rd,
respectively.  A question is whether beers in the 2nd round shouldn't be
valued at a higher rate, perhaps double that of the 1st round, considering
that they are in competition against beers already, in theory, proven to be
of a high caliber.
No, this isn't sour grapes - my club certainly benefited from the current
structure in 1999, and I personally was quite pleased with it this year!  It
just seem to be logical that the best of the best should be valued
accordingly.

Cheers!
Joe Formanek
Bolingbrook, IL
Urban Knaves of Grain
National BJCP judge
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Someone asked for some of the reasons why re-brewing NHC beers for the 2nd
round isn't allowed.  While I don't claim any insight into the AHA's
reasoning, some that come to mind include:

- A world class beer beer should be able to stand a month or two of aging
  and still be drinkable.  In other words, is a beer which ages more
  gracefully not a better beer?  It adds another facet where the brewer
  has to have good control; handling and packaging the beer post-ferment.
  A brewer who does this better has brewed a better beer.

- As has been pointed out, there is a difference in the times the
  regionals are held.  While this is typically just one week apart, the
  regional in Chicago this year was held a few weeks after the earliest 
  ones.  With the same entry deadlines, this leaves the beers judged in 
  Chicago just as old as the ones in the other regionals but leaves them
  with less time to rebrew a batch of beer.

Brian J Walter        | walter at lamar.colostate.edu
Chem Graduate Student | Homebrewer
Colorado State Univ   | and BJCP National Beer Judge
Fort Collins, CO      | http://www.bjcp.org
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Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:18:06 -0400
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>Greetings,
> This is an advance notice of an upcoming homebrew contest.
>
>In January 13-14 of 2001 (the MLK holiday weekend), BURP (Brewers United
for >Real Potables) will be hosting the 3rd Spirit of Belgium. This will be
a >two-day event celebrating the best of Belgian beer and cuisine. The whole
>event will encompass a conference with Michael Jackson as the keynote
>speaker, multiple Belgian beer tastings, a banquet, and a homebrew contest.
>BURP previously hosted a Spirit of Belgium in both 1994 and 1996. Some of
>the material presented in those conferences ended up in both Brewing
>Techniques and Zymurgy. We believe that this conference will be just as
>informative. Please check our web page at www.burp.org
<http://www.burp.org>  over the next few months to learn more.

However, I am not writing at this early time just to advertise >Spirit of
Belgium III. Rather, I am giving brewers advance notice so that they >can
start brewing their award winning Belgian ales. The caliber of judges >for
the homebrew contest should be the highest possible, so here is your >chance
both to compete against the best brewers of Belgian ales as well as to
>receive feedback from some of the best judges around the country. 

Anyway, that's enough of my rambling for now. The main reason I >wrote today
was to get brewers started on their brewing. Hopefully, I've >whetted your
appetite. If there are any questions concerning the homebrew >contest
portion of this festival, please let me know. As for the entire >Spirit of
Belgium III, in the months to come you will hear more about the whole
>festival. 


So for now, get those brewpots boiling  :-)
>
>Prost,
>
>Andy Anderson
>2001 Spirit of Belgium
>Homebrew Contest Organizer
>

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OK Al, please slap my knuckles... I deserve it.  I apologize to Bruce for
misinterpreting his words and doing it a bit too harshly and
undiplomatically.

Believe when I say that I did not write the post with the intentions of
being so harsh.  I was somewhat surprised when I read the post the next day
and it did sound more harsh than when I composed the post.  I guess that
speaks volumes of how written emails sound differently when read.  Next
time, I'll be sure to read the post before I send it.

Tyce Heldenbrand
tyce.heldenbrand at wfinet.com


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Table of contents
------------------------------------------------------
AHA NHC rule change (Mark Tumarkin)
Dutch judging forms & AHA 2nd Round (Mark Tumarkin)
Style Certification/Education (larry matthews)
re:barleywines (Nathaniel P. Lansing)
RE: NHC rules change (Formanek, Joe)
To Rebrew or not to Rebrew (Brian J Walter - Brewing Chemist)
Spirit of Belgium III (Anderson Andy W NSSC)
Re: slap my knuckles (Tyce Heldenbrand)
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From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: AHA NHC rule change
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:42:00 -0400
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I posted a few days ago about asking for a rule change for the AHA Natl
Homebrew Competition in regard to being able to rebrew a batch for the second
round for styles that need to be fresh in order to be at their best. I talked
to Paul Gatza today and the rules no longer prohibit brewing a new batch. I
hadn't entered anything my self this year, but remembered that rule from a
couple of years ago. Apparently it was dropped,  so there is no problem if you
want to brew a fresh batch for the second round. So I guess I spoke too soon
on this without being sure of the rules. Sorry about that. But perhaps it was
a good thing anyhow if people now become aware of the possibility of rebrewing
for the second round.

Mark Tumarkin

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From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
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For those of you that are interested in seeing the Dutch jugding forms, my
email address is
mark_t at ix.netcom.com

On the topic of re-brewing for the 2nd round AHA; even though the AHA rules
now do allow brewers to brew a new batch, a lot of judges seem to agree that
there are a lot of old, tired beers going to the second round.  So perhaps
some education needs to be done to make brewers aware of the possibility (and
in some cases, advisability) of rebrewing.

This obviously is a responsibility of the AHA, not the BJCP.  As (according to
another current thread) the BJCP is not an educational organization. :>)  I
say this facetiously,  as even if education is not a organizational goal of
the BJCP, many volunteer judges are also offering educational services to
their club members and other brewers. Maybe we can start mentioning that
re-brewing for the NHC is possible and advisable. Hopefully, over time the 2nd
round beers will start improving (at least in this one respect).

Mark Tumarkin





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Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:44:19 -0700
To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest <judge at synchro.com>
From: larry matthews <lmatt at ipass.net>
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     I don't really care if BJCP rewards judges with "style certification"
or not but I do believe we can conduct a program of continuing education
for those that want more information on each of the styles. When we begin
study for the BJCP test, there are several ways to begin organizing your
approach to the test and continued learning. I chose to breakdown the whole
process by beer styles. I prepared a two page "cheat sheet" for each style.
This way I had a systematic approach to the tasting sessions that our club
monitors (Mike Lelivelt and Craig Pepin) provided over the 4-5 months that
we met. The study sheets which can be expanded as needed could easily be
placed online within the BJCP site and slowly completed by a few volunteers
that express an interest in one or more styles. The site could become a
complete online approach to "style certification" on one level but also a
great tool for new brewers who want to begin the study for the BJCP
program. I have the document in a Word file if anyone is interested in
seeing it, please email me at lmatt at ipass.net. The guide is fairly simple
but serves as a great resource if you actually consult and continue to
expand on the readings that are/will be listed. 
    The approach is drawn from the same method that AHA has used in
providing us the "Classic Beer Style Series". I think that portion of AHA
contribution to brewing education is probably the single most important
function the organization has provided to us. Just having a compilation of
reading resources for a beer style listed all at one place would be
invaluable to our BJCP. Just as with our beer style committee work there
will always be a few who disagree but the idea is to have an approach to
our continued education that will help us to be better judges and brewers
and to help new brewers who submit their prized beers to competitions to
better understand the parameters under which we are judging their beer.
     I wouldn't worry about trying to assign judges to a flight at a
competition based upon their certification. Organizers already allow most
judges to choose the style of beer to judge that they feel most comfortable
with. This support from BJCP would allow our members to expand their
comfort zones and even brew a beer outside their usual styles. Ever time I
brew a different style from one I haven't brewed ever or in a long time, I
will consult my resources, try to update some old information, and then
formulate a recipe. Of course, all this time I have a beer in my hand.  
     Does the BJCP even have an Education Committee? If not, we ought to.
Although, I did fairly well on the BJCP test 4-5 years ago, I have
continued to learn since then and want to improve on my feedback to brewers
whose beers I judge. I believe the BJCP should have the same goal.
Continued education for us is the best method to obtain this goal.   
                              Larry Matthews
                              Carboy/Trub Clubs
                              Raleigh, NC
                              lmatt at ipass.net


At 01:00 AM 7/14/00 -0400, Al wrote:
>
>Even more finally... I *do* like the idea of style certification, but
>we would need three times the BJCP staff to make this kind of thing
>happen and in a volunteer organisation, that's very unlikely.  First,
>we would have to agree on what exactly is the style and what are
>representative beers.  Then we would have to start holding classes
>that would educate and certify attendees (again, imagine that mucky
>muck certifying others on Historical Beers).  Then we would need to keep
>track of credentials.  You think the job of assigning judges used to
>be difficult *without* style certification?  Think about it...
>
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From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
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AK responded: >> I've now convinced myself that even
100 IBUs can be malty in a big-enough beer.  Maybe *this* fact needs to b=
e
added into the guidelines to make it clearer?<<

 OK, I got the point across, I guess, in the long run. It's the
ambiguities that cause more problems than the errors. It is
hard (ie:impossible) for a judge to say "yumm, this beer is =

63 IBUs"  but the seperation of the IBU ranges for the two
types would help give the idea that there is a *perceived difference
between the two. American-big maltiness balanced toward strong
bitterness; British-big maltiness but evenly balanced with a firm but not=

abrupt bitterness.??
 Part of the problem is we *are talking about perceptions and
trying to get some agreement between varied palates can be =

a bit tough. Myself, I am diacetyl insensitive, I never get that
"sticky, cloying diacetyl" affect, so I know *not to comment on
diacetyl levels. Bitterness though is fairly easy to get agreement
on, though some people are 'supertasters' and are quite sensitive
to bitterness; certainly something easier to overcome than diacetyl
insensitivity.
 =

     A mans got to know his limitations.
 N.P. (Del) Lansing
   delbrew at compuserve.com
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From: "Formanek, Joe" <Jformanek at griffithlabs.com>
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Subject: RE: NHC rules change 
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Hello, all!
Since we're on the subject of NHC rules changes, here's a quick topic for
discussion that I'd like to submit to the collective: current point
structure at the NHC.  Presently, winning beers at both the 1st and 2nd
round are valued at 6 pts, 3 pts and 1 pt for 1st, 2nd and 3rd,
respectively.  A question is whether beers in the 2nd round shouldn't be
valued at a higher rate, perhaps double that of the 1st round, considering
that they are in competition against beers already, in theory, proven to be
of a high caliber.
No, this isn't sour grapes - my club certainly benefited from the current
structure in 1999, and I personally was quite pleased with it this year!  It
just seem to be logical that the best of the best should be valued
accordingly.

Cheers!
Joe Formanek
Bolingbrook, IL
Urban Knaves of Grain
National BJCP judge
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From: Brian J Walter - Brewing Chemist <walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
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Subject: To Rebrew or not to Rebrew
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Someone asked for some of the reasons why re-brewing NHC beers for the 2nd
round isn't allowed.  While I don't claim any insight into the AHA's
reasoning, some that come to mind include:

- A world class beer beer should be able to stand a month or two of aging
  and still be drinkable.  In other words, is a beer which ages more
  gracefully not a better beer?  It adds another facet where the brewer
  has to have good control; handling and packaging the beer post-ferment.
  A brewer who does this better has brewed a better beer.

- As has been pointed out, there is a difference in the times the
  regionals are held.  While this is typically just one week apart, the
  regional in Chicago this year was held a few weeks after the earliest 
  ones.  With the same entry deadlines, this leaves the beers judged in 
  Chicago just as old as the ones in the other regionals but leaves them
  with less time to rebrew a batch of beer.

Brian J Walter        | walter at lamar.colostate.edu
Chem Graduate Student | Homebrewer
Colorado State Univ   | and BJCP National Beer Judge
Fort Collins, CO      | http://www.bjcp.org
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Subject: Spirit of Belgium III
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:18:06 -0400
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>Greetings,
> This is an advance notice of an upcoming homebrew contest.
>
>In January 13-14 of 2001 (the MLK holiday weekend), BURP (Brewers United
for >Real Potables) will be hosting the 3rd Spirit of Belgium. This will be
a >two-day event celebrating the best of Belgian beer and cuisine. The whole
>event will encompass a conference with Michael Jackson as the keynote
>speaker, multiple Belgian beer tastings, a banquet, and a homebrew contest.
>BURP previously hosted a Spirit of Belgium in both 1994 and 1996. Some of
>the material presented in those conferences ended up in both Brewing
>Techniques and Zymurgy. We believe that this conference will be just as
>informative. Please check our web page at www.burp.org
<http://www.burp.org>  over the next few months to learn more.

However, I am not writing at this early time just to advertise >Spirit of
Belgium III. Rather, I am giving brewers advance notice so that they >can
start brewing their award winning Belgian ales. The caliber of judges >for
the homebrew contest should be the highest possible, so here is your >chance
both to compete against the best brewers of Belgian ales as well as to
>receive feedback from some of the best judges around the country. 

Anyway, that's enough of my rambling for now. The main reason I >wrote today
was to get brewers started on their brewing. Hopefully, I've >whetted your
appetite. If there are any questions concerning the homebrew >contest
portion of this festival, please let me know. As for the entire >Spirit of
Belgium III, in the months to come you will hear more about the whole
>festival. 


So for now, get those brewpots boiling  :-)
>
>Prost,
>
>Andy Anderson
>2001 Spirit of Belgium
>Homebrew Contest Organizer
>

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OK Al, please slap my knuckles... I deserve it.  I apologize to Bruce for
misinterpreting his words and doing it a bit too harshly and
undiplomatically.

Believe when I say that I did not write the post with the intentions of
being so harsh.  I was somewhat surprised when I read the post the next day
and it did sound more harsh than when I composed the post.  I guess that
speaks volumes of how written emails sound differently when read.  Next
time, I'll be sure to read the post before I send it.

Tyce Heldenbrand
tyce.heldenbrand at wfinet.com


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