Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA19434 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.109]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA02839 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 07/02/00 - 07/03/00 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:01:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Fw: Oud Bruin - Judging with mucky mucks (Tyce Heldenbrand) Re: sake style descriptors.../bjcp guidelines (OudBruin at aol.com) --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from mail.wfinet.com ([204.216.216.225]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC10311C09DB for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 02 Jul 2000 15:41:43 -0400 Received: from theldenbrand (12.124.199.238 [12.124.199.238]) by mail.wfinet.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id N57C9ZVV; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:37:56 -0700 Message-ID: <002201bfe45d$88500420$22c4040a at theldenbrand> From: "Tyce Heldenbrand" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Fw: Oud Bruin - Judging with mucky mucks Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 15:41:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Oud Bruin states: >Al- has hit on a raw nerve for many brewers and judges. As judges, we sit and >have to (at least we are expected to ) follow a fairly set of guidelines >about a given beer..I think that if we gave the brewer a chance to expound on >what he is doing with his product, there would be less confusion. Also, we >still have judges who don't have the foggiest clue on certain catagories. I >had the distinct displeasure of sitting opposite from a "lord high mucky-muck >of the moose lodge" (-All we need are the silly hats and the secret >handshake.. maybe the comitee felt I couldn't be trusted with the handshake) >Anyway, hislordship pronounced that this historic porter was not a good >examp;e of the style.. and proceeded to make commentary about crapola like >oxidation and hop rates.. His lordship didn't know it, but I knew the brewer >and the product.. it was as fine an example of a historic porter as you will >find on this side of the pond- in fact ir was based on John Harrison's Rx in >the historic beers book.. Oud Bruin, obviously, you are not a trained judge yourself. There's an unwritten law among BJCP judges, along the lines of unbiased/ethical judging that if you recognize a beer where you know the brewer, you are supposed to stand up and say, excuse me, I cannot judge this beer as I recognize the brewer and please assign me to a different panel. This eliminates any bias in judging. So please, don't slam some high "mucky muck" as you so ignorantly put it, when this judge probably knew what he/she was talkking about..... unbiasedly I might add. You might want to claim who you are instead of just putting your initials. Tyce Heldenbrand BJCP Certified Quality Ale & Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF) San Diego, CA --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.1]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC10321C0A22 for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 02 Jul 2000 16:16:50 -0400 Received: from OudBruin at aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.10.) id u.71.4858ae7 (3946) for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:16:36 -0400 (EDT) From: OudBruin at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: <71.4858ae7.2690fd23 at aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:16:35 EDT Subject: Re: sake style descriptors.../bjcp guidelines To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 56 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Gee: let me get this straight, there is no official bjcp sake style descriptor, does that mean we can't use descriptors written elsewhere... I'm so confused over the slavish obediance and attention we give the "official style guidelines.." the continuing struggle to capture the various styles of beers only creats more confusion, .. have you ever tried to capture a cup of water in your hand? We create a style catagory "non-abbey belgium dark strong ales brewed on a full moon" and some soul will create an exception to all the rules we just created,,, More to the point. is the beer good? if so why? why not? If we are so good at judging beers, we should not have to rely upon an artificial system of classification- the system of classification is no more of less than a system of descriptors =Just like using "Peterson's guide to Mushrooms, birds or flowers" Because the flower youre looking at isn't exactly a member of the daylilly family, does that mean the flower(or beer) is worthless?? If someone wants to spend thier time writing scientific descriptions of "non-abbey belgium dark strong ales" .. or whatever... God Bless them. Meanwhile, I humbly suggest the we take a page from our brethern who judge wine, broadly know the styles but are more interested in the technical competancies of the individual brewers.. meanwhile, warm up your rice cookers,,, Bruce << --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C-- Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.22]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA19434 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.232.109]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA02839 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 07/02/00 - 07/03/00 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:01:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Fw: Oud Bruin - Judging with mucky mucks (Tyce Heldenbrand) Re: sake style descriptors.../bjcp guidelines (OudBruin at aol.com) --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from mail.wfinet.com ([204.216.216.225]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC10311C09DB for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 02 Jul 2000 15:41:43 -0400 Received: from theldenbrand (12.124.199.238 [12.124.199.238]) by mail.wfinet.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id N57C9ZVV; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:37:56 -0700 Message-ID: <002201bfe45d$88500420$22c4040a at theldenbrand> From: "Tyce Heldenbrand" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Fw: Oud Bruin - Judging with mucky mucks Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 15:41:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Oud Bruin states: >Al- has hit on a raw nerve for many brewers and judges. As judges, we sit and >have to (at least we are expected to ) follow a fairly set of guidelines >about a given beer..I think that if we gave the brewer a chance to expound on >what he is doing with his product, there would be less confusion. Also, we >still have judges who don't have the foggiest clue on certain catagories. I >had the distinct displeasure of sitting opposite from a "lord high mucky-muck >of the moose lodge" (-All we need are the silly hats and the secret >handshake.. maybe the comitee felt I couldn't be trusted with the handshake) >Anyway, hislordship pronounced that this historic porter was not a good >examp;e of the style.. and proceeded to make commentary about crapola like >oxidation and hop rates.. His lordship didn't know it, but I knew the brewer >and the product.. it was as fine an example of a historic porter as you will >find on this side of the pond- in fact ir was based on John Harrison's Rx in >the historic beers book.. Oud Bruin, obviously, you are not a trained judge yourself. There's an unwritten law among BJCP judges, along the lines of unbiased/ethical judging that if you recognize a beer where you know the brewer, you are supposed to stand up and say, excuse me, I cannot judge this beer as I recognize the brewer and please assign me to a different panel. This eliminates any bias in judging. So please, don't slam some high "mucky muck" as you so ignorantly put it, when this judge probably knew what he/she was talkking about..... unbiasedly I might add. You might want to claim who you are instead of just putting your initials. Tyce Heldenbrand BJCP Certified Quality Ale & Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF) San Diego, CA --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.1]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1123) id SYNC10321C0A22 for judge at synchro.com; Sun, 02 Jul 2000 16:16:50 -0400 Received: from OudBruin at aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.10.) id u.71.4858ae7 (3946) for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:16:36 -0400 (EDT) From: OudBruin at aol.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-ID: <71.4858ae7.2690fd23 at aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:16:35 EDT Subject: Re: sake style descriptors.../bjcp guidelines To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 56 X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Gee: let me get this straight, there is no official bjcp sake style descriptor, does that mean we can't use descriptors written elsewhere... I'm so confused over the slavish obediance and attention we give the "official style guidelines.." the continuing struggle to capture the various styles of beers only creats more confusion, .. have you ever tried to capture a cup of water in your hand? We create a style catagory "non-abbey belgium dark strong ales brewed on a full moon" and some soul will create an exception to all the rules we just created,,, More to the point. is the beer good? if so why? why not? If we are so good at judging beers, we should not have to rely upon an artificial system of classification- the system of classification is no more of less than a system of descriptors =Just like using "Peterson's guide to Mushrooms, birds or flowers" Because the flower youre looking at isn't exactly a member of the daylilly family, does that mean the flower(or beer) is worthless?? If someone wants to spend thier time writing scientific descriptions of "non-abbey belgium dark strong ales" .. or whatever... God Bless them. Meanwhile, I humbly suggest the we take a page from our brethern who judge wine, broadly know the styles but are more interested in the technical competancies of the individual brewers.. meanwhile, warm up your rice cookers,,, Bruce << --Next_Part_SYNC10411C0B2C--