Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.21]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA22385 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.136.73]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA14585 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:02:42 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 02/01/00 - 02/02/00 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:01:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ more Alt (SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]) Still More Alt (SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]) Alts (BrewInfo) --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.monsanto.com ([199.89.234.124]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1073) id SYNC737614A171 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 08:52:36 -0500 Received: by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com; id HAA10297; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:52:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from chiemscon02.monsanto.com(137.35.48.112) by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com via smap (V4.2) id xma009343; Tue, 1 Feb 00 07:51:21 -0600 Received: by chiemscon02.monsanto.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <1CKW3AQC>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:54:21 -0600 Message-ID: From: "SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: more Alt Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:54:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message > There are two schools of thought in Duesseldorf... I subscribe to > the less-common one, but the one that is practiced by what is > widely agreed upon as the finest Altbier producer: Zum Uerige. > The grain bill is pretty much 99% Munich and 1% very dark malt > (Weyermann calls theirs Carafa). The other school of thought > is one where the grain bill also includes some Pils, some crystal > malt and a larger percentage is very dark malt. I have a bottle of Zum Uerige at home and it lists the ingredients as pale malt, caramalt and roast malt (in German, of course). From my memory of the taste of the beer, I would say that it is not 100% Munich malt; it is too well attenuated to be made from all (or nearly all) Munich malt. Where is your info from Al? A brewer from there, I would guess. Is it possible that he (or she) was fibbing (or mistaken), or do they purposely mislabel their bottles? Have fun! George de Piro --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.monsanto.com ([199.89.234.124]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1073) id SYNC737714A1B9 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:07:43 -0500 Received: by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com; id IAA00253; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:07:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from chiemscon02.monsanto.com(137.35.48.112) by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com via smap (V4.2) id xma029459; Tue, 1 Feb 00 08:06:51 -0600 Received: by chiemscon02.monsanto.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <1CKW3A43>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:09:51 -0600 Message-ID: From: "SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Still More Alt Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:09:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Al K. writes: The grain bill is pretty much 99% Munich and 1% very dark malt (Weyermann calls theirs Carafa). The other school of thought is one where the grain bill also includes some Pils, some crystal malt and a larger percentage is very dark malt. George de Piro writes: I have a bottle of Zum Uerige at home and it lists the ingredients as pale malt, caramalt and roast malt (in German, of course). From my memory of the taste of the beer, I would say that it is not 100% Munich malt; it is too well attenuated to be made from all (or nearly all) Munich malt. In my most recent trip to Dusseldorf we were fortunate enough to score a tour of Zum Uerige with an English-speaking waiter (those waiters know their Alt!) and their head brewer. My notes state Pils as the overriding malt with up to 15% Cara and a tiny portion of Black malt of which their's is less bitter than ours. The secret to their attenuation would appear to be a number of early mash steps at lower temperatures than our standard 150s. BTW, sorry for the earlier try at this posting. Hit send to quick. jeff sparrow chicago beer society --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from mail.xnet.com ([198.147.221.67]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1073) id SYNC738214A553 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 14:06:58 -0500 Received: from hurricane.xnet.com (typhoon.xnet.com [198.147.221.66]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with ESMTP id NAA24326 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:06:55 -0600 (CST) Received: by hurricane.xnet.com (Postfix, from userid 4947) id CDF2E5EDAD; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0600 (CST) To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Alts Message-Id: <20000201190654.CDF2E5EDAD at hurricane.xnet.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0600 (CST) From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo) Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message George writes: >Al K. writes: >> There are two schools of thought in Duesseldorf... I subscribe to >> the less-common one, but the one that is practiced by what is >> widely agreed upon as the finest Altbier producer: Zum Uerige. >> The grain bill is pretty much 99% Munich and 1% very dark malt >> (Weyermann calls theirs Carafa). The other school of thought >> is one where the grain bill also includes some Pils, some crystal >> malt and a larger percentage is very dark malt. > >I have a bottle of Zum Uerige at home and it lists the ingredients as pale >malt, caramalt and roast malt (in German, of course). From my memory of the >taste of the beer, I would say that it is not 100% Munich malt; it is too >well attenuated to be made from all (or nearly all) Munich malt. > >Where is your info from Al? A brewer from there, I would guess. Is it >possible that he (or she) was fibbing (or mistaken), or do they purposely >mislabel their bottles? My information is from one of the brewmasters there at Zum Uerige. He only spoke German and I only English, but we scribbled with our fingers in the sweat on a lagering tank and I had a German<->English list of brewing terms I had made up for the trip and we seemed to understand each other. My understanding was that the majority of the malt was "Dunkel malz" which I asked if it was "Munchner-typ" and he said yes. And that there is a very small amount (he held his fingers just an inch... oop... 2.5 cm apart) of very dark malt... I asked: "Carafa?" and he nodded. Personally, I do not feel that Zum Uerige is very well attenuated. Everyone points to the 77 or 78% (I forget the actual number) apparent attenuation in Piendl's listings, but Piendl was in Weihenstephan (I believe), near Munich, and Zum Uerige is not even pasteurised... they fill those flip-top bottles by machine and the flip-tops are closed *BY HAND*. I'm quite certain that a few more percent attenuation could occur in transit to Munich. There was someone from this list who was going to Duesseldorf a year or two ago and he said he would bring a hydrometer with him to measure the FG of ZU. He's a retailer from CA who has a brother in GA, if memory serves. Give me a minute and I'll remember their names. His brother brewed a great black pepper beer which I judged in the AHA BOS a few years ago. I guess the brewmaster could have been passing on misinformation, but that's more of a Belgian thing... (if you've ever tried to pin Pierre Celis down on the truth about the sourness in Celis White, you'll know what I mean). I certainly hope that they didn't change the recipe. This was 1995, that I was in Duesseldorf, I believe. Al. Al Korzonas, Lockport, Illinois, USA korz at brewinfo.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1-- Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.213.75.21]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA22385 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.136.73]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA14585 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:02:42 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 02/01/00 - 02/02/00 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:01:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ more Alt (SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]) Still More Alt (SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]) Alts (BrewInfo) --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.monsanto.com ([199.89.234.124]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1073) id SYNC737614A171 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 08:52:36 -0500 Received: by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com; id HAA10297; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:52:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from chiemscon02.monsanto.com(137.35.48.112) by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com via smap (V4.2) id xma009343; Tue, 1 Feb 00 07:51:21 -0600 Received: by chiemscon02.monsanto.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <1CKW3AQC>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:54:21 -0600 Message-ID: From: "SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: more Alt Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:54:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message > There are two schools of thought in Duesseldorf... I subscribe to > the less-common one, but the one that is practiced by what is > widely agreed upon as the finest Altbier producer: Zum Uerige. > The grain bill is pretty much 99% Munich and 1% very dark malt > (Weyermann calls theirs Carafa). The other school of thought > is one where the grain bill also includes some Pils, some crystal > malt and a larger percentage is very dark malt. I have a bottle of Zum Uerige at home and it lists the ingredients as pale malt, caramalt and roast malt (in German, of course). From my memory of the taste of the beer, I would say that it is not 100% Munich malt; it is too well attenuated to be made from all (or nearly all) Munich malt. Where is your info from Al? A brewer from there, I would guess. Is it possible that he (or she) was fibbing (or mistaken), or do they purposely mislabel their bottles? Have fun! George de Piro --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from gatekeeper2.monsanto.com ([199.89.234.124]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1073) id SYNC737714A1B9 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:07:43 -0500 Received: by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com; id IAA00253; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:07:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from chiemscon02.monsanto.com(137.35.48.112) by gatekeeper2.monsanto.com via smap (V4.2) id xma029459; Tue, 1 Feb 00 08:06:51 -0600 Received: by chiemscon02.monsanto.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <1CKW3A43>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:09:51 -0600 Message-ID: From: "SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [FND/1825]" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Still More Alt Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:09:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Al K. writes: The grain bill is pretty much 99% Munich and 1% very dark malt (Weyermann calls theirs Carafa). The other school of thought is one where the grain bill also includes some Pils, some crystal malt and a larger percentage is very dark malt. George de Piro writes: I have a bottle of Zum Uerige at home and it lists the ingredients as pale malt, caramalt and roast malt (in German, of course). From my memory of the taste of the beer, I would say that it is not 100% Munich malt; it is too well attenuated to be made from all (or nearly all) Munich malt. In my most recent trip to Dusseldorf we were fortunate enough to score a tour of Zum Uerige with an English-speaking waiter (those waiters know their Alt!) and their head brewer. My notes state Pils as the overriding malt with up to 15% Cara and a tiny portion of Black malt of which their's is less bitter than ours. The secret to their attenuation would appear to be a number of early mash steps at lower temperatures than our standard 150s. BTW, sorry for the earlier try at this posting. Hit send to quick. jeff sparrow chicago beer society --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from mail.xnet.com ([198.147.221.67]) by synchro.com with SMTP (Mailtraq/1.1.4.1073) id SYNC738214A553 for judge at synchro.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 14:06:58 -0500 Received: from hurricane.xnet.com (typhoon.xnet.com [198.147.221.66]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with ESMTP id NAA24326 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:06:55 -0600 (CST) Received: by hurricane.xnet.com (Postfix, from userid 4947) id CDF2E5EDAD; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0600 (CST) To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Alts Message-Id: <20000201190654.CDF2E5EDAD at hurricane.xnet.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0600 (CST) From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo) Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message George writes: >Al K. writes: >> There are two schools of thought in Duesseldorf... I subscribe to >> the less-common one, but the one that is practiced by what is >> widely agreed upon as the finest Altbier producer: Zum Uerige. >> The grain bill is pretty much 99% Munich and 1% very dark malt >> (Weyermann calls theirs Carafa). The other school of thought >> is one where the grain bill also includes some Pils, some crystal >> malt and a larger percentage is very dark malt. > >I have a bottle of Zum Uerige at home and it lists the ingredients as pale >malt, caramalt and roast malt (in German, of course). From my memory of the >taste of the beer, I would say that it is not 100% Munich malt; it is too >well attenuated to be made from all (or nearly all) Munich malt. > >Where is your info from Al? A brewer from there, I would guess. Is it >possible that he (or she) was fibbing (or mistaken), or do they purposely >mislabel their bottles? My information is from one of the brewmasters there at Zum Uerige. He only spoke German and I only English, but we scribbled with our fingers in the sweat on a lagering tank and I had a German<->English list of brewing terms I had made up for the trip and we seemed to understand each other. My understanding was that the majority of the malt was "Dunkel malz" which I asked if it was "Munchner-typ" and he said yes. And that there is a very small amount (he held his fingers just an inch... oop... 2.5 cm apart) of very dark malt... I asked: "Carafa?" and he nodded. Personally, I do not feel that Zum Uerige is very well attenuated. Everyone points to the 77 or 78% (I forget the actual number) apparent attenuation in Piendl's listings, but Piendl was in Weihenstephan (I believe), near Munich, and Zum Uerige is not even pasteurised... they fill those flip-top bottles by machine and the flip-tops are closed *BY HAND*. I'm quite certain that a few more percent attenuation could occur in transit to Munich. There was someone from this list who was going to Duesseldorf a year or two ago and he said he would bring a hydrometer with him to measure the FG of ZU. He's a retailer from CA who has a brother in GA, if memory serves. Give me a minute and I'll remember their names. His brother brewed a great black pepper beer which I judged in the AHA BOS a few years ago. I guess the brewmaster could have been passing on misinformation, but that's more of a Belgian thing... (if you've ever tried to pin Pierre Celis down on the truth about the sourness in Celis White, you'll know what I mean). I certainly hope that they didn't change the recipe. This was 1995, that I was in Duesseldorf, I believe. Al. Al Korzonas, Lockport, Illinois, USA korz at brewinfo.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ --Next_Part_SYNC739314AED1--