Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA17083 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA10528 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:10:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 04/24/99 - 04/25/99 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:04:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Digest for the period 04/22/99 - 04/23/99 (beerking1 at juno.com) Re: No Styles (beerking1 at juno.com) No style category (Thomas P Karnowski) no styles (Bryan L. Gros) Re: Digest for the period 04/23/99 - 04/24/99 (JayAnkeney at aol.com) Re: No Styles (David Houseman) --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC5736BC76; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:32:57 -0400 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA11266 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11238 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:32:52 -0500 (EST) From: beerking1 at juno.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Received: (from beerking1 at juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D8XC5V6L; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:31:55 EDT To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:55:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/22/99 - 04/23/99 Message-ID: <19990423.213015.-876009.0.beerking1 at juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-25,27-30 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Spencer W Thomas writes: ">A proposal: > >We totally ditch style guidelines, or keep only the broadest ones >(light-colored ale, dark-colored ale, sour ale, etc.) > >Then we ask the brewer to write a little essay about what they were >trying to accomplish with the brew. All the "style" bits on the >current score sheet turn into "how closely did the brewer get to what >he/she was intending?" The technical quality and "drinkability" >parts >address whether it's "objectively" a good beer regardless of its >"style." > >"This won't work," you say, "people will just write down what the >beer >*is* like, instead of what they wanted it to be." To which I say: >"hah!" I can't count how many times I've been at a homebrew meeting >and someone came up and said "try this, it's just like SNPA!" And >it's sweet and bland. > >It would be interesting to run such a competition, just to see how it >worked. Maybe add an "open" category to an existing competition? > >Ok, I've said my piece. Now you shoot it down!" Sounds interesting. But it also sounds a lot like beer competitions used to be in the early and mid 80s. Especially the part about "light-colored ale, dark-colored ale." Lyle C. Brown ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC5866BF74; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:23:32 -0400 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA23442 for postmaster at synchro.com; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23435 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:21:56 -0500 (EST) From: beerking1 at juno.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Received: (from beerking1 at juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D8YQ43LX; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:20:25 EDT To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:18:33 -0700 Subject: Re: No Styles Message-ID: <19990424.101841.-779601.0.beerking1 at juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,8-10 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Having already made one comment on the idea of "No Styles," and then reading responses from others, I have an intereseting observation. It would seem very difficult to get judges not to bring their ideas of style into the judging process. Isn't that the way we are "trained?" I haven't taken the exam in a long time, but when I took it we were given 4 beers, without style. Our task was to put the beer in a style, justify your style assignment, and judge the beer in that style. (Back in 1986, using a Cream Ale made this extremely difficult). My $0.02. Lyle C. Brown ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC5876BF81; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:30:12 -0400 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA01147 for postmaster at synchro.com; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from x1.boston.juno.com (x1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.21]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01107 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from karnowski at juno.com) by x1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D8YUZMWT; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:28:27 EDT To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:29:04 -0400 Subject: No style category Message-ID: <19990424.112905.-182059.1.karnowski at juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Thomas P Karnowski Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO I've been thinking of having a no style category in our next competition but it WOULD have score sheets. For example, there would be 3 areas. First is "What is the closest style to this beer and how close is it? 0=classic example, 20 = not close at all". Second is "How well made is it (free of defects like infections, oxidation, etc)" worth another 20 points. finally is a 10 point overall impression. While I don't want to make this complicated it seems that this would eliminate problems with judgement to some degree. It would be kind of a "beer that best exemplifies the spirit of homebrewing" kind of thing. What do you think? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC5886BFA6; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:15:37 -0400 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA06317 for postmaster at synchro.com; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06289 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (209-239-204-9.oak.jps.net [209.239.204.9]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA02436 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19990424091137.009537a0 at jps.net> X-Sender: bgros at jps.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:13:45 -0700 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Bryan L. Gros" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: no styles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Spencer asked about judging with no rigid styles. I've wondered about this as well. Especially with the high number of advanced brewers these days. Although I haven't really noticed an increase in the overall quality of competition entries in the last few years. Anyway, how is wine judged? There are no style guidelines for wine, are there? Can a beer competition be run similar to a wine competition (without the spitting)? Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Draught Board Homebrew Club http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/ --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC5896BFBF; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:07:11 -0400 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA12079 for postmaster at synchro.com; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12027 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: JayAnkeney at aol.com Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Received: from JayAnkeney at aol.com (3928) by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id uWCa013355 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2c5c48f7.245353cd at aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:05:17 EDT Subject: Re: Digest for the period 04/23/99 - 04/24/99 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO >>Dear homebrew folks, Just thought I'd alert you to the fact the last Digest, 4/24, came to me totally highlighted (i.e. filled with a dense color background) that made it almost impossible to read the text I'm using a Mac w/ system 8 on AOL, if that helps. I enjoy getting the Digest and hope to be able to read it in the future. Thanks a lot, Jay Ankeney --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC5966C030; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:34:15 -0400 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA28986 for postmaster at synchro.com; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from priam.chesco.net (priam.chesco.net [204.108.253.90]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28945 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:33:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from TR-dlhousemanREM.tr.unisys.com (shiva3.btcwcu.org [204.108.253.142]) by priam.chesco.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA28368 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904250032.UAA28368 at priam.chesco.net> X-Sender: dhousema at mail.cccbi.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: David Houseman Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: No Styles Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO "It would be nice to judge a beer as to its quality as it exists when judged." So how do you define "quality?" Is it the absence of infection? Then lambics would be excluded! Meeting your expectations? Then what about the other 2000+ judges? I've judged in a competition that had no styles and it's not what it's cracked up to be. Every entrant is at the mercy of the subjective likes and dislikes of each judge. I'm all for brewing without styles. Brew whatever you want. If you and your friends and family like it, that's all that matters. But to hold a competition, there has to be some objective measurements and a set of expectations that both the brewer/entrant and judge can work to. BTW, a definition of "quality" is meeting expectations. Styles are one way of setting expectations. Dave Houseman --Next_Part_SYNC6016C0D0--