Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA24268 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA18904 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:09:07 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 02/12/99 - 02/13/99 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:03:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC889762E84" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC889762E84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Database Online (Spencer Thomas) Re: use of style descriptions (Randy Paul) Re: Digest for the period 02/11/99 - 02/12/99 (Lyle C. Brown) --Next_Part_SYNC889762E84 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC888162CDA; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:31:05 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA14380 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.15]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14212 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from engin.umich.edu (pm463-15.dialip.mich.net [207.75.176.217]) by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) with ESMTP id JAA07715; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:31:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C43B5D.924CCA29 at engin.umich.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:31:59 -0500 From: Spencer Thomas Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Re: Database Online References: <22438611.36c2e68d at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO MaltyDog at aol.com wrote: > > It seems to me that it would be very easy for the BJCP points to remain > secure; > simply don't post names, only Judge ID numbers, with the points, the same way > that competitions post results by entry number. But there are others who know your judge ID number -- anyone who has run a competition in your general area might have it. I like the e-mail idea. If the judge database has email addresses, we could set it up to email you an initial password, which you could then use for immediate online access. Thus, anyone could request access, but only you would get the password, and so be able to use it. =Spencer (spencer at umich.edu) --Next_Part_SYNC889762E84 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC889062DA9; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:20:23 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA07016 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from stmpy.cais.net (stmpy.cais.net [199.0.216.101]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06900 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:16:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.176.74.242] (dup-207-176-74-242.cais.net [207.176.74.242]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10652 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:17:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: randy at shell.cais.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:16:31 -0500 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Randy Paul Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: use of style descriptions Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Bryan Gros commented about the use of style descriptions in competitions. We use our personal perceptions and knowledge when we fill out the score sheet to give the best comments. Individually we resolve those perceptions with the competition guidelines and score the beer. Ultimately, when the judges have to agree on a concensus score, the competition rules should be used to resolve differences. (was it Monty Python who would add?: "that is my opinion, and it is mine!") I judged barleywines in a competition a couple of years ago. One entry was wonderful, and somewhat pale in color. I felt the beer deserved a very good/excellent score. One judge argued that the entry was too light in color and he proceeded to take out his color scale and showed that it had a lower SRM than the range permitted. He wanted a 19 because it was out of style. No way, I thought, since a light color isn't a defining characteristic of a barleywine - it's not like passing an amber beer as a pils. We compromised, of course, and the beer didn't rank (I made sure the brewer got feedback about what happened in the comments on my sheet). Afterwards I looked around and found that the low end SRM of all barleywine style guides appears to be needlessly high and discussed the possible responses: a) Most judges weren't interested in creating a "helles" barleywine subcategory since there are few commercial examples but would accept a lighter guideline. b) Most judges agreed that if you have two ranking beers that everyone has scored the same, the official guidelines can be used to break the tie (i.e. the one that's closer to the guidelines wins rank). The controversial questions seem to be 1) when to judge a beer "out of style" when the judges disagree with the competition guidelines, and 2) how much to penalize a beer that would be more appropriate in another guideline category if the judges at the table think it's OK where it is. Has anybody else ran into this? -- Randy --Next_Part_SYNC889762E84 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.1.0.1036) id SYNC889062DB6; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:39 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA11666 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11581 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from beerking1 at juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D3AXE6WZ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:49:01 EST To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:45:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Digest for the period 02/11/99 - 02/12/99 Message-ID: <19990212.184611.-233201.1.beerking1 at juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,8-9,13-14,20-21,26-27,30-32 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Lyle C. Brown" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Bryan Gros writes about style guidelines and whether they should be available to judges in a competition. First of all, they most definitely are available to judges, any one can bring a set if they want. I have found situations can develop when the competition does not specify which guidelines are used. I have seen judges in "friendly disagreement" over whether to judge by the AHA or the BJCP standards. The coordinators were not clear before hand which applied. Fact is, there are enough differences to create confusion. I have pposted previously about the FEW benefits of the AHA over the BJCP guidelines. Basically, there are a few extra categories covered by the AHA, which I think the BJCP should consider. Other than that, the BJCP guidelines are definitely superior, IMHO. What this all points out is that judges should NOT hold their own ideals "in their head." Each competition should be judged by the advertised guidelines, and non-other. This provides the added incentive of keeping the BJCP guidelines as current and complete as possible. If ours are the best guidelines out there, they will be the ones used by the great majority of competitions. Another point here. Bryan should not have used the "Beta" scoresheets, as none of the entrants had the chance to comply. Think of the similarities between some subcategories, which may make the distinctions open to some level of interpretation. A beer entered in a competition by one guidelines may not do well by another. One more comment on the "betas." Why did the judges in that competition get them? Why cna't we get copies? When will the rest of them see them? I for one am extremely interested. Lyle C. Brown ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --Next_Part_SYNC889762E84--