Received: from srvr20.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr20.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.26]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA17013 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr20.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA17961 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:09:12 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 02/04/99 - 02/05/99 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 01:04:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC870560C01" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Sharing information (Gordon Strong) Organizer Participation (Eric R. Theiner) RE: Website (mwinnie at istmail.com) JudgeNet (Bryan L. Gros) Organizer participation (Bryan L. Gros) Newsletter, etc. (Phil & Sara Doersam) --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC868960A62; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:00:31 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA26223 for postmaster at synchro.com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26178 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from strongg1 (ip182.dayton5.oh.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.181.182]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA07176 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:58:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000901be5046$c00d9140$3700000a at strongg1.ohf.dec.com> From: "Gordon Strong" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Sharing information Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:00:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Dave Houseman has made a valid and valuable proposal to address the perceived lack of information from the BJCP by enhancing the services/information published on the BJCP web site. I encourage all to support this. If we do a good enough job, we could change the name of the organization to e-beer.com, go public, and retire early. :-) Scott Bickham has done an admirable job with enhancing the web content (first at his own site, now at the BJCP). It does contain more accurate information but Dave points out several ways this could be enhanced further. I encourage those that have a responsibility within the BJCP for furnishing information to use this venue. Not to be a techno-weanie, but if you can trade stocks over the net you should be able to look up your judging record. I thought Filemaker Pro v4 had web capabilities. I also thought there was a program called Tango that allowed Filemaker databases to be published on the web. I use Filemaker to keep our club membership database but haven't looked into the web features. BTW, what's confidential about judging records? I can see the need to limit access to personal information (address, phone numbers) but what's inherently confidential about how many points you have? Is there a desire to control the database content as some kind of intellectual property of the BJCP (i.e. something that it gets fees to release), or is it a personal privacy concern? (Note: those were real questions, not sarcastic nor rhetorical) In any event, I think a project could be kicked off to look at the feasibility of doing this. And as with any project or committee work, its status should be viewable on the web site. I think some of these tasks would qualify as a "service project" for grand master purposes. And I think this mailing list *is* a valid forum for discussing these ideas. Recent trolling and flame baiting notwithstanding, I hope we can discuss legitimate ideas and provide constructive criticism on this list without reflexively launching into personal attacks. Even when the signal-to-noise is unfavorable, I still get enough content from this list to make it worth reading. Gordon Strong strongg at earthlink.net --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC869160AB1; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:17:56 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA07128 for postmaster at synchro.com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.skantech.com (mail.skantech.net [208.12.236.243]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06759 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from skantech.com [208.12.239.32] by mail.skantech.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.06) id A8A1F00154; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:19:45 EDT Message-ID: <36B9C95F.357DE447 at skantech.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:23:03 -0500 From: "Eric R. Theiner" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Organizer Participation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO > Can anyone tell me what the official view is on a BJCP sanctioned competition > organizer entering beers in the same competition he/she organizes? > > Should I assume this practice is commonplace in BJCP competitions, wether entered > anonymously or not? AFAIK, it is. I know of both judges and organizers entering competitions, and actually see no problems with it. The brews are blinded so that no one knows whose beer they're evaluating, and as long as you have disqualified yourself from judging the sections that have your beers, then there is little chance for bias. Rick Theiner LOGIC, Inc. --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC869260AE3; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:28:12 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA28874 for postmaster at synchro.com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntserv2.istdet.com ([208.19.193.10]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28834 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:26:56 -0500 (EST) From: mwinnie at istmail.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Received: by ntserv2 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:32:40 -0500 Message-ID: <1C2BE083188AD2119AD80060977B2232052EC9 at ntserv2> To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: RE: Website Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:32:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Scott Bickham wrote: "As far as the points database, I removed that because it doesn't appear to be feasible in the near future. Your judging records are confidential, so if we can devise a way to make them accessible with more than your name and judging id (which is included in the lists of regional judges sent to organizers), it will happen. The records are currently kept only in Filemaker Pro, so we would also need a database that is compatible with internet retrievals. Until these issues are worked out, there will be no online database." Why should our judging records be confidential? I have no objection to anyone seeing what competitions I've judged in lately. How about the rest of you? Here's a few reasons why I'm in favor of it: 1. I think it would be an incentive for judges to stay active. 2. Brewers should be able to check if the name and qualifications listed on the score sheet actually match a real BJCP judge. 3. If our points were online then we could follow up with competition organizers (after a reasonable time) so see if they had submitted the paperwork. As it is now, I don't find out about ommissions until a year later. By then the details of when and where I judged are fuzzy. Mike Winnie Recognized/Certified (I'm not sure until I see my report) --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC869260AF1; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:52:39 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA05322 for postmaster at synchro.com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.jps.net (smtp1.jps.net [209.63.224.236]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05183 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (209-239-197-162.oak.jps.net [209.239.197.162]) by smtp1.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13021; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:51:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990204094036.00959a20 at spectacle.berkeley.edu> X-Sender: bgros at spectacle.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:45:35 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Bryan L. Gros" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: JudgeNet Cc: bickham at trail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO First, a suggestion. Since the list software doesn't put email addresses in the header of each post, plese try to include your address in your signature. Second, Several people brought up the important point (including my rep) that JudgeNet is a great service to talk about judging and competitions and (even) the BJCP, but it is not an official publication of the BJCP or its officers. So we shouldn't expect an official reply to questions in this forum. Scott said that he is actively updating the web page and that is a welcome change. I was dismayed to see that my competition did not get mentioned in Zymurgy and was not added to the AHA list of events on their web page for many weeks. It was, however, quickly added to the BJCP web page calendar and I got several inquiries from BJCP people who saw it. Scott: can you add the BJCP mead scoresheet to the list of scoresheets available on the web page? Thanks. Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC869260AF3; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:52:41 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA05306 for postmaster at synchro.com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.jps.net (smtp1.jps.net [209.63.224.236]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05148 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (209-239-197-162.oak.jps.net [209.239.197.162]) by smtp1.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA12984 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:51:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990204093732.0095f770 at spectacle.berkeley.edu> X-Sender: bgros at spectacle.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:39:05 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "Bryan L. Gros" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Organizer participation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Phil Doersam asks: >Can anyone tell me what the official view is on a BJCP sanctioned >competition organizer entering beers in the same competition he/she organizes? > >Should I assume this practice is commonplace in BJCP competitions, wether >entered anonymously or not? I don't belive that the BJCP has a guideline here, but I think it is common for organizers to enter their own competitions. Judging is anonymous after all. As long as the organizer isn't judging his/her own beer, it shouldn't be a problem. Glad you're still judging, Phil - Bryan Bryan Gros Oakland, CA --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC869860B87; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 18:00:57 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA01777 for postmaster at synchro.com; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01584 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA16696 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:00:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from lvx-nv6-02.ix.netcom.com(199.35.222.194) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016521; Thu Feb 4 16:59:49 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990204145944.016a9420 at popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: dicepro at popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 14:59:44 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Phil & Sara Doersam Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Newsletter, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO >From: Walz, Greg Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:14:31 -0500 >Ed Westemeier is doing an excellent job putting the newsletter together. >But I'd question if he or anyone else would do it free of charge if >there was a schedule requirement that an issue come out every month or >every other month, for example. Most homebrew clubs have a "schedule requirement" to get the newsletter out every month and those editors are not paid. The Reporter is scheduled to come out just every three months, hardly worthy of paying the editor (please don't take offense Ed -- your work is good and appreciated). >a) an electronic newsletter that can be downloaded. This eliminates all Sounds good in theory, but remember that the vast majority of BJCP judges apparently are not Internet connected. >Not on the Net? No problem - this is what homebrew clubs are for. Many homebrew clubs, such as the one I belong to, have more than enough material to publish their newsletters. We publish 8-pages every month. We don't have the space to be the BJCPs printing company. In addition, you would rely on homebrew clubs to disseminate important information to the BJCP members? That does not sound like a very reliable method to me. >b) As was suggested in the past, try to form an arrangement with Brewing >Techniques to have a page of BJCP news in every issue. Once again, this >limits it to strictly relevant news without a lot of fillers, and gives >those who prefer not to use the Net for their information the latest >info. I don't subscribe to BT and don't intend to. I think it's a good magazine, but I don't want to spend the money. I imagine that the majority of BJCP members (who are notoriously frugal homebrewers) would agree with me. >A regular, formal newsletter is NOT part of our mission, and most likely >would simply get in the way of our doing those things that we MUST do to >justify our mission and reason for being. Then why did you put a "regular, formal newsletter" in the By-Laws? It IS part of our "mission". >From: Eric R. Theiner Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:25:35 -0500 >BTW, Phil, I couldn't find an e-mail address for you, but I wanted to >say, great post! Glad to see you around. You can reach me at dicepro at ix.netcom.com >From: Bill Giffin Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:07:14 -0500 >The responsibility of the officers of the BJCP is clearly stated in the >by-laws. To date our officers have ignored all of their >responsibilities. The minutes of the meetings have not been >published as called for in the by-laws. The treasurer has not filed >the required returns with the Internal Revenue Service for the past >two years and we are rapidly approaching the end of our third year >without having filed. The by-laws call for the treasurer to publish >financial statement twice a year. The treasurer has not met this >obligation. > >Yes we are a volunteer organization, but even in a volunteer >organization there are responsibilities of office that must be fulfilled. That's about as concise as it can be said. I'm not sure the officers have ignored ALL of their responsibilities, but it seems that when it comes to money and taxes, they have been completely deficient in their duties. Phil Doersam Las Vegas, Nevada BJCP Certified and GABF Beer Judge dicepro at ix.netcom.com --Next_Part_SYNC870560C01--