Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA09507 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA05431 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:08:00 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 02/03/99 - 02/04/99 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 01:01:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC868160792" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Reply to "BJCP Communications" (Walz, Greg) Newsletter...one more time (Stephen Johnson) BJCP Board openings (Bill Slack) Web Communications (Houseman, David L) No good to complain here! (Eric R. Theiner) Re: Website (Scott Bickham) Gemstate Homebrew Contest (Loren Carter) Volunteers (Bill Giffin) BJCP newsletter, etc. (Phil & Sara Doersam) Organizer participation (Phil & Sara Doersam) back to beer (Moore, Aaron) BJCP FAQ (Scott Bickham) inadvertant omission of attribution (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=) --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8665605A5; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:31:17 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA09621 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from charity.harvard.net (charity.harvard.net [206.137.222.16]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09512 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from okpt01.okpgh.com (sgi-gw.okpgh.com [209.166.188.33] (may be forged)) by charity.harvard.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25014 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by OKPT01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <1C9M4RKB>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:14:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Walz, Greg" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Reply to "BJCP Communications" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:14:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO In JudgeNet 2/2-2/3 Eric Theiner wrote on "BJCP Communications". He also out of courtesy copied me the night before the post. Here is the reply I wrote to him on 2/2. I am posting it here in its entirety because it explains (a) my point of view, and the fact that (b) the opinions I express are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of either the BJCP or the BJCP Board: Eric - Thanks for your communication. Since this is the first time I've ever heard from you, I'm glad that you are at least willing to acknowledge that we reps exist and are posting your questions / comments to me instead of exclusively to a public forum. I normally do not respond to queries directed to me via JudgeNet posts - if someone has a question or comment and doesn't do me the courtesy of asking me directly - well, the h**l with them. I, for one, am seriously thinking about de-subscribing to JudgeNet because too many persons think this is the formal means of communicating with the BJCP. It isn't. Note that I'm replying to you personally, as I do whenever someone does me the courtesy of asking me a question or phoning or writing me. When we formulated the Bylaws there was a significant differing of opinion regarding annual dues. Some (myself included) wanted to phrase the Bylaws to prohibit charging dues at all, ever, to maintain your active status - while others saw no problem with dues. My feeling is that once you shell out $50 for the test and who knows how much additional expense (travel, lodging, and/or re-tests), you should be a judge as long as you're willing to remain active as a judge or support competitions. If we force all judges to pay an additional, say, $25/yr for a newsletter, this is basically changing the rules after-the-fact for those of us who've taken the test. I, for one, would seriously consider dropping out of the BJCP if I had to pay what would effectively become a "yearly maintenance fee" to maintain my status - after being promised that the test fee was all that I had to pay for life. In effect, I (and all of us) are effectively "paying" every time we judge or volunteer on a competition. Judging is work. And I for one don't feel that more paper (of which I am inundated with right now) would be worth it when I can get the info I need quickly and timely off the Net. (I assume you don't know that you can download complete, printable copies of the last three issues of the newsletter from the BJCP home page - and all future issues will be likewise posted.) True, if enough people want a newsletter a subscription service could be done. So only those that want it have to pay for it. This is the only fair way to do it. But this creates a problem, and its a continuously recurring problem in non-profit organizations - WHO'S RESPONSIBLE? Ed Westemeier is doing an excellent job putting the newsletter together. But I'd question if he or anyone else would do it free of charge if there was a schedule requirement that an issue come out every month or every other month, for example. Note that in all of this discussion I've yet to see anybody directly volunteer to get involved with either writing for the newsletter or helping with its production - yourself included. Are you by your post saying that you'd like to volunteer to help with the newsletter? We'd love to have your help. It's a great idea to "bell the cat" but who's going to do it? So, who's to be responsible for this newsletter? If we charge for subscriptions there's an obligation to publish a newsletter to a schedule. Even Brewing Techniques has had difficulties in publishing to a schedule. Imagine the vicious flames and hate mail we'd all get if we charged for subscriptions and weren't able to keep up with the mailings! Who's going to write for it? Most homebrew club newsletters exist primarily to get out the time, date and place of the next meeting, and are oftentimes full of repetitive "boilerplate" that's just there to fill up the pages - items reproduced from other newsletters, reproduced from newspaper articles, personal ramblings, etc. To me this kind of fill in our newsletter would be a waste of resources. I really don't think that with our limited membership and limited number of persons willing to volunteer that it would be practical to establish a paid, regular newsletter. Even your suggestion would require our volunteers to coordinate the work and ship materials to the homebrew clubs to send out. Here are two suggestions that may work, however: a) an electronic newsletter that can be downloaded. This eliminates all of the considerable work involved in sending out a newsletter to thousands of persons (ever fold and stamp until your fingers get blisters? I've helped out on our homebrew club's newsletter and competition mailings, and it's a monumental task - even with only 130 mailings. The BJCP's current list runs into the thousands). Not on the Net? No problem - this is what homebrew clubs are for. Encourage clubs to include articles from the electronic newsletter in their newsletters - or let the net-literate download the newsletter and circulate it to the judge-members at meetings. Note that this still doesn't solve the problem of new, relevant material to publish. b) As was suggested in the past, try to form an arrangement with Brewing Techniques to have a page of BJCP news in every issue. Once again, this limits it to strictly relevant news without a lot of fillers, and gives those who prefer not to use the Net for their information the latest info. Eric, please realize one thing: The BJCP is not a homebrew club or any other kind of club. We're also not a publishing house with a full-time paid staff like the AHA, which you cite as being "approachable and responsive"; we're volunteers. What the BJCP "IS", however, is a certifying organization. We develop and administer a test that allows us to certify to the world that you know how to judge beer. We keep track of your personal experience growth through the point system and keep you posted yearly as to where you stand. We also develop style guidelines, which is the "common language" of beer evaluation. Finally, we sanction competitions - which means that, by sanctioning, we assure those who enter sanctioned competitions that their beers will be judged fairly and competently in a proven, standardized manner. That's it! That's all we do! A regular, formal newsletter is NOT part of our mission, and most likely would simply get in the way of our doing those things that we MUST do to justify our mission and reason for being. If what you want is a national "homebrew club" that regularly sends you stuff that you can read while on the can - well, join the AHA. They'll be happy to take your money to do so. Incidentally, the AHA was never a "volunteer" organization, nor was it ever run by its membership (the so-called "advisory committee" is a joke). If you cross Charlie, you're out the door. Period. As far as "satisfied customers": in terms of point posting and crediting, style guideline development, sanctioning procedures and the quality of the exam we're doing a heck of a lot better than the old AHA/HWBTA organization ever did. And we get few complaints in this regard. In other words, we're pretty much doing our mission as we set out to do it, and are doing it well. Incidentally, when I post to JudgeNet I'm posting MY opinions, and MY opinions alone. Only our president, Bill Slack, speaks for the Board and the BJCP. Cheers, Greg Walz BJCP Rep, Mid-Atlantic Region Pittsburgh, PA gwalz at okpgh.com --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8665605B2; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:37:19 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA11013 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer2.mail.vanderbilt.edu (mailer2.mail.Vanderbilt.Edu [129.59.1.212]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10905 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from susan.vanderbilt.edu (A167163.N1.Vanderbilt.Edu [129.59.167.163]) by mailer2.mail.vanderbilt.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1/VU-3.0.2) with SMTP id IAA22356 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:34:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990203083428.0069237c at j.mail.vanderbilt.edu> X-Sender: johnsosm at j.mail.vanderbilt.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:34:28 -0600 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Stephen Johnson Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Newsletter...one more time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO One more post and I'll be happy to give it a rest and let this thread fade into the sunset. I've actually felt that this most recent "venting" that has gone on has been an interesting thread. It is helpful to hear that others have many of the same views that I have about "OUR" BJCP. In response, again, to Jay Hersh: so Ed Westmeier can look for an article from you in his email for inclusion in the next newsletter? ME: I'm working on an article this weekend. But I'll be curious to see if it ever makes it into printed form, or how long that may take. Besides, I have very little to go on in terms of guidelines for submitting manuscripts: what might be appropriate topics to write about, what length the article should be, acceptible file formats, etc. I guess I'll e-mail Ed and get some details from him. When he replies, I'll post his guidelines here. Not to be combative, but there are a lot of people saying "we" when what they really mean is "you" i.e. those who have donated their time and energy. As I've said to Bill G. (who started all this BS), don't just complain. Do something about it. you want a newsletter then create the content for it. So far Ed has published everything submitted to him. ME: I have not felt that this dialogue has been either combative or BS. To the contrary, I have actually been looking forward to each day's digest to hear other people's take on these ideas. Finally, as for taking ownership and doing something about it, I'll continue to do my part here in the Southeast to work on developing a good judging base. Along with many others in this area, we are working with other homebrewing clubs and the brewing community in general, bringing in nationally recognized individuals (we have had the great fortune of visits by Conrad Seidel, Charlie Papazian, Michael Jackson, and Al Korzonas, all within the past 12 months, and Ray Daniels due in April), organizing competitions, training new judges, traveling to other competitions in our area, and preaching the gospel of homebrewing and beer appreciation to as many people as we can get interested in listening. That is what a grassroots movement is all about. Based on what some have commented on recently, the "job" or "role" of the BJCP, whether stated explicitly in the charter or implicitly through the actions of its officers, regional reps, volunteers, and members, may not include these activities. I for one think the BJCP should broaden its vision and goals. Because if we want this organization to grow, we need to encourage participation at all levels, and I stand firm in my (and many others) conviction that a regular printed newsletter is a great place to start. Steve Johnson, President Music City Brewers Nashville, Tennessee --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8665605BF; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:40:20 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA11871 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:36:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.mv.net (root at mercury.mv.net [199.125.85.40]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11544 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from slack.slack.org192 (slack.org [199.125.107.152]) by mercury.mv.net (8.8.8/mem-971025) with SMTP id JAA03467 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:34:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B85F92.72F0 at slack.org> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:39:14 -0500 From: Bill Slack Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Organization: W. R. Slack X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: BJCP Board openings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO There will be elections for Regional Representatives to the BJCP Board of Directors this Spring. The MidAtlantic, SouthEast, Midwest and Southwest Regions have elections this year. If you are a member in good standing in the BJCP and would like to run for Regional Representative in your region, please send a note to the program administrator, program_admin at bjcp.org stating your intention. You will need to send a letter stating your candidacy along with endorsing signatures of five other members in good standing from your region, as well as a 500 word statement with biographical information and whatever you want to say to the electorate. Bill Slack President and NE Representative BJCP --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8666605CC; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:01:36 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA18414 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbmail1.unisys.com (bbmail1.unisys.com [192.63.108.35]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18151 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from trsvr.tr.unisys.com (trsvr.tr.unisys.com [192.63.216.7]) by bbmail1.unisys.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14715 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:00:36 GMT Received: from tr-exchange-2.tr.unisys.com by trsvr.tr.unisys.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15170 ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:00:23 GMT Received: by tr-exchange-2.tr.unisys.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:04:14 -0500 Message-ID: <8E37550684B3D211A20B0090271EC59D8BF76D at tr-exchange-1.tr.unisys.com> From: "Houseman, David L" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: Web Communications Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:59:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO I may be stupid, but then I only work in this business. The BJCP has a web site. The tools and techniques are there to provide easy, inexpensive, and frequent update of information. The fact that the information is not current is a problem easily fixed. Using this as an argument to spend money on a paper newsletter is BS. With a newsletter, one is sort of obliged to fill up a page(s) so yes, solicting material and editing is a problem. It is MUCH easier to have sections of our web site for each committee, listing the members, what the committee's mission is, and frequent status updates by the chairman of the committees. The financials can be updated monthly or quarterly -- it's as easy as uploading an HTMLized document. A message from our president can be easily added. It doesn't have to wait for a collection of stories to be published. Articles can be placed on-line when they are available; none if there aren't any. The BJCP Web site doesn't have to be littered with the noise on JudgeNet but can be the voice of the BJCP and it's officers. Let's not spend money on newsletters, but let's spend it on getting the web site updated so that it's current AND easily changed by the officiers. Let's make the web site our Official means of communication to members. Jim Liddil is right, the BJCP is becomming a lot like what people complain the AOB to be like. Surely we have a number of techically computer literate judges who can volunteer their time to bring our web site up to the status of being a first class communications media for the members. I also noted with interest that the Boston Brewing Company donated $5000 to the BJCP. What other companies have we solicited from to help our coffers? Are we missing an opportunity? Dave Houseman --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8666605D9; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:22:44 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA24145 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.skantech.com (mail.skantech.net [208.12.236.243]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24002 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from skantech.com [208.12.239.5] by mail.skantech.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.06) id A9D5EE901EA; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:23:01 EDT Message-ID: <36B86A6E.DAA9AEEB at skantech.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:25:35 -0500 From: "Eric R. Theiner" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: No good to complain here! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Hello fellow BJCP'ers! I sent a lengthy e-mail to my regional rep and received a lengthy reply. I have not yet replied to that reply (and thus eliciting a new reply) because I want to think a bit more about it before accepting his challenge. But I do want to share some information with my fellow malcontents. "too many persons think this is the formal means of communicating with the BJCP. It isn't." So although it does help in terms of sharing feelings and concerns with other subscribers, this is not the way to get noticed. In fact, due to the response that we have received, I suspect that the only way to get into these issues is to directly contact our reps and officers of the BJCP. I felt a little misinformed on that point (thinking that BJCP brass actually paid attention to what went on here), so I thought I should similarly inform ya'll. BTW, Phil, I couldn't find an e-mail address for you, but I wanted to say, great post! Glad to see you around. Rick Theiner --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC866760647; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:29:22 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA14614 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.lanl.gov (mailhost.lanl.gov [128.165.3.12]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14296 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from t4.lanl.gov (t4.lanl.gov [128.165.124.150]) by mailhost.lanl.gov (8.9.2/8.9.2/(cic-5, 1/3/99)) with ESMTP id JAA28570 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:26:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from atom.lanl.gov (atom.lanl.gov [128.165.124.151]) by t4.lanl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16227 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:26:06 -0700 (MST) Received: (from srb at localhost) by atom.lanl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06434 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:26:07 -0700 (MST) From: Scott Bickham Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-Id: <199902031626.JAA06434 at atom.lanl.gov> Subject: Re: Website To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:26:06 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" at Feb 3, 99 01:04:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Lyle Brown wrote: > Here, I must STRONGLY disagree!! The website is good, and I appreciate > the time and efforts of the volunteers who keep it up, but it is > DEFINITELY NOT always current. Take for example the points database, > which was advertised as "coming soon" for nearly a year. Now it has > apparently dissapeared completely. > > I have never found the exam and competition schedule to be anywhere near > complete, and seldom current. Those ho have paid attention to the web page and this forum will recognize that Lyle has presented a number of misleading statements. In early November, I posted that I am now in control of updates to the web page and promised to keep it current. Since then, I have updated it no fewer than six times, the last being on January 27th. While updates occurred far less frequently prior to November, this is certainly not the case now. Also note that the BJCP Exam Page that I put on my site was mutually linked to the BJCP web page and always had the current and complete exam schedule. Lyle's statement is an outright lie, and an apology is in order. As far as the points database, I removed that because it doesn't appear to be feasible in the near future. Your judging records are confidential, so if we can devise a way to make them accessible with more than your name and judging id (which is included in the lists of regional judges sent to organizers), it will happen. The records are currently kept only in Filemaker Pro, so we would also need a database that is compatible with internet retrievals. Until these issues are worked out, there will be no online database. Finally, something that has been neglected in the discussion about providing the schedule to the internet-impaired is that all of the info on the BJCP web page is freely available for publication in club newsletters or web pages. Why not follow the lead of most homebrew clubs are appoint an internet guru who can extract this information and fire it off to the newsletter editor? Scott Bickham --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC866960667; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:18:07 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA15634 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsumail.idbsu.edu (bsumail.idbsu.edu [132.178.16.40]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15527 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [132.178.115.81] (loren-carter-s-computer.dhcp.idbsu.edu [132.178.115.81]) by bsumail.idbsu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19924 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:20:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:19:54 -0700 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Loren Carter Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Gemstate Homebrew Contest Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO The IdaQuaffers Home Brew Club presents: The Thirteenth Annual GEMSTATE HOMEBREW CONTEST A BJCP sanctioned event. Entry deadline April 2. 1999. at Boise, Idaho. Accepting all AHA categories. Entries: $5 first entry, $3 each additional entry. Three bottles required. Awards: Ribbons and prizes for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in each category judged, plus plaques etc. for Best of Show and Delany Cup. Detailed information at WWW.angelfire.com/id/idaquaffers/ Loren Carter Boise State University Lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu www.idbsu.edu/chem/lcarter (208)385-3473 --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC867060693; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:12:18 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00911 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from groucho.ctel.net (groucho.ctel.net [208.221.72.2]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00773 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from billg (aug-modem69.ctel.net [209.222.75.69]) by groucho.ctel.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA19118 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:12:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902031912.OAA19118 at groucho.ctel.net> From: "Bill Giffin" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:07:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Volunteers Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Good morning all, I think that anyone who has gotten up in the morning hours before the sun even begins to make an appearance fully understands that we are volunteers. I find it a bit disingenuous of all the folks who keep beating the drum of "remember its a volunteer organization". The responsibility of the officers of the BJCP is clearly stated in the by-laws. To date our officers have ignored all of their responsibilities. The minutes of the meetings have not been published as called for in the by-laws. The treasurer has not filed the required returns with the Internal Revenue Service for the past two years and we are rapidly approaching the end of our third year without having filed. The by-laws call for the treasurer to publish financial statement twice a year. The treasurer has not met this obligation. Yes we are a volunteer organization, but even in a volunteer organization there are responsibilities of office that must be fulfilled. Bill --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8670606A0; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:18:34 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA02750 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02451 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA08532 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:17:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from lvx-nv21-28.ix.netcom.com(207.92.171.220) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008211; Wed Feb 3 13:16:14 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990203111605.016a6900 at popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: dicepro at popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:16:05 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Phil & Sara Doersam Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: BJCP newsletter, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO >From: Scott Bickham Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:01:39 -0700 (MST) >I am not in a position to offer a detailed analysis of our >finances, but our bank account has not grown significantly >since we were dropped by the AHA. There was a modest initial >balance which was transferred from the AHA, but only after >considerable effort on the part of Pat Baker, and the $5000 >donation by Boston Beer Co. was a huge windfall. I hope that was a typo. The March 30, 1997 mailing from the BJCP said that BBC gave us $10,000 in June of 1996. >I would also like to emphasize Ed's statement that the newsletter >does not write itself. I have been involved with a number of >homebrew cluds which have evolved to the state where most of >the articles are written by a single member. The rest are >often pulled from the net. Yes, we could send out a single >page with the competition and exam schedule, but is it worth >using 10-15% of our annual revenue to do this without inclusion >of some informative articles on judging or style? Not in >my opinion! First: If you include the suggested type of basic information in the newsletter that I recommended in my post yesterday, then the argument that there is nothing to publish is groundless. Second: If the newsletter was the bare minimum size of 1-piece of paper (I don't ever foresee it being that small), the cost to produce and mail it would be considerably less than the most recent 8-page publication. Also, publishing a newsletter regularly will most likely spur more interest in our organization which in turn will increase revenues. >From: Eric R. Theiner Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:07:56 -0500 >We are a volunteer organization-- that means people do this when it is >convenient to them. Most of the time they aren't going to come looking >for more responsibility or more events, but sometimes they'll come when >they're called. A newsletter is one more way to call them. Exactly. And if we don't publish and inform the general membership, things will stay status quo. >In our local homebrew club, our Communications Director is a very busy >man. Sometimes the newsletter goes out with a hitch, sometimes it's >late, and sometimes it doesn't go. You can see the involvement ebb and >flow with the newsletter. Are people calling to see when the next >meeting is, or where, or when the next group brew is happening? >Sometimes. But 90% of the membership won't bother. I'm sorry, but if I was a member of a homebrew club that couldn't get the newsletter out the door every month, at more or less the same time, I'd lobby to take over the job myself or I'd find/create another club. In my opinion, the strength of a homebrew club can be measured by the newsletter -- content, writing, layout and frequency. If 90% of your membership doesn't care or bother as you state, what does that say about the club? Not much. >I am happy to be a part of the BJCP, but if the only communication with >the membership is going to occur when someone bothers to ask what is >going on, we're doomed to always be a two-bit organization. You better believe it. >And finally-- "if you're not happy, do something about it." I have long >believed in that, but what is there to do? I don't even know what Greg >Walz does as my Rep. And, no, I'm not going to bother to look it up-- >that's something that should have been communicated to membership on the >outset. I got a 9 out of 10 (because the grader didn't like my >semantics) on explaining how the BJCP scoring works, but I still don't >know how the organization is run. Nor do I really care to find out, but >if someone sends it to me in a newsletter, I'll gaurantee that I'll read >it. I have a feeling that the vast majority of the BJCP membership, including me, would agree with some or all of the above paragraph. >-------------------------------------------------------- >From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:46:11 -0500 (EST) >not what I meant at all. Examinations and Competitions are added >constantly. A deadline for publishing must be set pretty well ahead, >probably 4-8 weeks to allow for editing, printing, and addressing the >newsletters. We're dealing with sending out thousands of copies, not >dozens, there is a significant difference in labor required. Another 1-2 >weeks in the mail and we're up to over 2-2.5 months. Deadlines for non time dependant material can and should be set further out. But adding dates for competitions and exams could be done right up until the day before the document is taken/e-mailed to Kinko's (or wherever). The turnaround time for copying and folding should be 24-48 hours at the maximum. The address labels would already be printed, hopefully in the proper sequence for bulk rate mailing. The task of adhering the labels to the newsletters could be accomplished in 1 or 2 evenings with a few friends from the local homebrew club and some homebrew to share. The paperwork is quick and easy to fill out and it must accompany the newsletters to the post office. As for the time the material takes to work its way through the postal system, that's a potential nightmare. Members close to Cincinnati might receive it in a few days while those on the west coast may not see it in their mailbox for a month. The only way around that lag is to change to first class postage, and that is very expensive compared to bulk rate. Care should be taken when deciding when to publish to avoid the XMAS mail crunch and any other time of the year when the USPS is on its knees. Since the newsletter comes out (theoretically) every quarter, the editor should be working on the publication a little at a time. The last week or so before sending to Kinko's, things are finished up. So as you can see, your estimate of 4-8 weeks to "allow for editing, printing, and addressing the newsletters" is not realistic. The editing is an ongoing process throughout the year, as is the basic layout. Putting the finishing touches on the layout for each issue should only take a few nights. The printing, addressing and delivering to the USPS could easily be done in 1 week. Then allow a few weeks for delivery and your newsletter is in the hands of the membership, in most cases, within 1 month. If you have dates for competitions and exams for the newsletter editor that have not been confirmed at least 30 days prior to the event, then your competition or exam is probably not going to do very well. >A year end report, published several months later is a quite typical mode of >operation. I bet some or most of the mutual funds or stocks you might own >work just this way. You have more at stake there, but that seems reasonable. Yes, I agree. My mutual funds give me a year end report. Some also give me a quarterly report. But the issue with the BJCP is that the By-Laws (section 4.4) say we should receive a semiannual report concerning taxes and assets, and that has never happened. >I don't think it's appropriate for the BJCP to publish competition results, >it's of limited interest to the membership at large. >competition schedule: see above That's your opinion, but I think it's something that should be considered. >>contact info for elected & appointed officials, annual > >changes for each region once every 2 years. How many newsletters do you need >to get with this. It may only change every 2 years, but new judges are joining us every month. If you only publish the information every two years, you will certainly miss the opportunity to inform many new judges, and that's the purpose of the newsletter, to inform. >cyberspace, as required. We don't have a travel budget to have board >meetings. We are not some large company. The By-Laws (section 3.5) say an annual meeting must be held and that the members must be informed of this meeting at least 60-days prior to the meeting in the Reporter and other publications so we can communicate our views to the board. I suppose this meeting could conceivable exist as a conference call rather than a face-to-face, but I have never been informed of it ever taking place. I would like to be able to ante up my 2-cents. Has anyone else every been notified of the annual meeting? >I don't know about you but when I'm not working and doing other important >personal things, I'm busy sending out exams and arranging fo rtheir scoring. >At the end of the year we submit budgets and numbers on the exams. I'm not >about to sit around and create statistical sets so you can have something in >your mailbox. Thank you for your contributions. I certainly do appreciate them. I would think that whoever maintains the database (Russ?) would easily be able to generate a report each quarter breaking down the rankings and test taking for including in the newsletter. >The BJCP is not a homebrew club or any other kind of club. We're also not a >publishing house with a full-time paid staff like the AHA, which you cite as >being "approachable and responsive"; I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I would NEVER say that about the AHA. I would most likely say just the opposite! >>One last point. The reporting of our finances and non-profit tax >>information to all members needs to regularly occur as outlined in the >>By-Laws. By not doing so, suspicions are raised (hopefully needlessly) >>about our assets and tax status. There is too much money at stake here >>(enough for temptation to come into play) to do otherwise. > >This is presently being worked upon. Have you filed your taxes yet? My taxes are not DUE yet! But the reports from the BJCP are well PAST DUE. A very big difference. Phil Doersam Las Vegas, Nevada BJCP Certified and GABF Beer Judge --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8670606D5; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:24:26 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA03924 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03772 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA09467 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:22:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from lvx-nv21-28.ix.netcom.com(207.92.171.220) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009324; Wed Feb 3 13:22:07 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990203112200.016a6900 at popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: dicepro at popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:22:00 -0800 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Phil & Sara Doersam Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Organizer participation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Can anyone tell me what the official view is on a BJCP sanctioned competition organizer entering beers in the same competition he/she organizes? Should I assume this practice is commonplace in BJCP competitions, wether entered anonymously or not? Do any of you care or have an opinion about this practice? Phil Doersam Las Vegas, Nevada BJCP Certified and GABF Beer Judge --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC8672606FB; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:31:37 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA11573 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from bricks.carlson.com (mail.carlson.com [208.240.12.67]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10122 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bricks.carlson.com (root at localhost) by bricks.carlson.com with ESMTP id PAA05236 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:22:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from otcmsg17.carlson.com (otcmsg17.carlson.com [172.24.129.205]) by bricks.carlson.com with ESMTP id PAA05228 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:22:44 -0600 (CST) Received: by otcmsg17.carlson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1HP0161J>; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:22:46 -0600 Message-ID: <53EAF4E42144D2119D3A00805F9F22B5CB3FB0 at otcmsg59b.carlson.com> From: "Moore, Aaron" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Subject: back to beer Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:22:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Steve Writes>> There are a lot of people who don't get this and hopefully over a three > month period something worthwhile will have been submitted. If you feel > that way, then why do you subscribe? Robert replies> The comment was made in the context of, and in response to, the high volume of "noise" and personal attacks. I subscribe because I hope to find intelligent discussion of styles, how-tos of running competitions, judging, et cetera. If there were more of that sort of thing (and sometimes there is), it would be worth distributing to people who don't use e-mail. But as Ed notes, indirectly in his comment about lack of contributions, someone still has to sort through it to put it in useful form for publication. Robert, I could not agree with you more. I am a farily new subscriber to Judge Net (>three months), and I can count the number of posts on one hand that I have seen since subscribing that live up to the statement from the BJCP web site regarding judge net...and I quote "JudgeNet is a moderated digest for the discussion of topics related to beer judging, style guidelines and homebrew competitions." I have seen very little of what is promised here, the digest does present a good forum for contest announcements (which I enjoy) and some comment on Styles, But in my opinion way too much arguing and posturing. Most of what I have seen in the last three Months is discussion of the problems (or lack there of ) with the BJCP, which is a sad deviation from what this forum is supposed to be about. Lets get back to the Beer Thanks, Aaron Moore --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC867260708; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:46:41 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA17700 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost3.lanl.gov (mailhost3.lanl.gov [128.165.3.9]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17638 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from t4.lanl.gov (t4.lanl.gov [128.165.124.150]) by mailhost3.lanl.gov (8.9.2/8.9.2/(cic-5, 1/3/99)) with ESMTP id OAA32688 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:46:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from atom.lanl.gov (atom.lanl.gov [128.165.124.151]) by t4.lanl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18848 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:46:11 -0700 (MST) Received: (from srb at localhost) by atom.lanl.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06730 for judge at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:46:11 -0700 (MST) From: Scott Bickham Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Message-Id: <199902032146.OAA06730 at atom.lanl.gov> Subject: BJCP FAQ To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:46:10 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO The BJCP FAQ can be found at http://www.bjcp.org/bjcpfaq.html. It answers many of the questions frequently posed here and will be updated as necessary. Scott --Next_Part_SYNC868160792 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC86746073D; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:14:01 -0500 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA08712 for postmaster at synchro.com; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08685 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA30332 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:13:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drbeer at doctorbeer.com) Received: from drbeer (p76.block1.tc5.state.MA.tiac.net [206.119.57.77] (may be forged)) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00611 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:16:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drbeer at doctorbeer.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:16:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902031816.NAA00611 at mail-out-2.tiac.net> X-Sender: drbeer at pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: inadvertant omission of attribution Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Status: RO Please note that the text below was authored by Greg Walz one of the BJCP regional representatives. Since I felt it was a very concise description of the mission of the BJCP I included it in my prior post, however I inadvertantly left out the proper attribution due to Greg. The BJCP is not a homebrew club or any other kind of club. We're also not a publishing house with a full-time paid staff like the AHA, which you cite as being "approachable and responsive"; What the BJCP "IS", however, is a certifying organization. We develop and administer a test that allows us to certify to the world that you know how to judge beer. We keep track of your personal experience growth through the point system and keep you posted yearly as to where you stand. We also develop style guidelines, which is the "common language" of beer evaluation. Finally, we sanction competitions - which means that, by sanctioning, we assure those who enter sanctioned competitions that their beers will be judged fairly and competently in a proven, standardized manner. That's it! That's all we do! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalt's --Next_Part_SYNC868160792--