Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22381 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA05610 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:06:49 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 01/08/99 - 01/09/99 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:03:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC80575B344" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Ancient, Medieval, and Indigenous Beer Category (Jeff Renner) RE: judge numbers (DAVE SAPSIS) number of judges at MCAB (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=) --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC80415B1F3; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:00:58 -0500 >From root Fri Jan 8 08:59:13 1999 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA13655 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.15]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13432 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.75.177.239] (pm467-17.dialip.mich.net [207.75.177.171]) by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) with ESMTP id IAA28756 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:59:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nerenner at n.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:00:21 -0500 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Ancient, Medieval, and Indigenous Beer Category Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Peter Zien writes: >America's Finest City Homebrew Competition in San Diego, Ca. has chosen to >add an additional style category to the AHA styles for our 1999 contest. >I, along with Greg Lorton, came up with Ancient, Medieval, and Indigenous >Beers. We are busy preparing historical example guidelines and narrowing >down the available literary sources for such. Sounds like fun. I have a midieval "Domesday Ale" going, 50% homemalted oats, 25% each wheat and barley malts. No hops, OG 1096. I suggest that you publicize this in hist-brewing-digest. I think you must be a member to post. This is a low traffic digest that is made up of members of the Society for Creative Anachronism and others, like me, who are just interested in historic styles, but don't call ourselves Duke of Grand Fenwicke. (It seems that everyone in SCA is Lord or Lady or Sir this or that. Where are the great unwashed masses of churls, serfs, peons and peasants whose lives were "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" that made up 99.99% of midieval society?) To subscribe, send email to majordomo at pbm.com containing the words "subscribe hist-brewing" (or subscribe hist-brewing-digest, if you want the digest.) To contact a human about problems, send mail to owner-hist-brewing at pbm.com Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC80505B280; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:07:03 -0500 >From root Fri Jan 8 18:04:01 1999 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA08076 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from caforestry-bh.fire.ca.gov (caforestry-bh.fire.ca.gov [12.7.198.66]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07922 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from exchsac1.fire.ca.gov by caforestry-bh.fire.ca.gov via smtpd (for postoffice.harvard.net [209.21.182.5]) with SMTP; 8 Jan 1999 23:04:08 UT Received: from ccgate1.fire.ca.gov ([165.105.200.5]) by exchsac1.fire.ca.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id CRNTK5ND; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:04:07 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ccgate1.fire.ca.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.03 (Beta 5) Enterprise) id 00094879; Fri, 8 Jan 99 15:36:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:02:00 -0800 Message-ID: <00094879.1211 at fire.ca.gov> From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS) Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: RE: judge numbers To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I concur with Mike, and I think Jeremy as well, in that all other things constant, more judges are better. This assumes some things, and is also subject to some constraints. The biggest constraint appears to be extracting samples from the bottles in a sufficient and fair manner. I have no problem evaluating beers with a very small volume -- around 2 oz pours, but this requires appropriate glassware that most competitions do not provide. I usually only actually drink about an oz. The basic assumptions go like: if the mean score of independent evalauations represents the best measure of the "true" score for a given beer, then more samles will better estimate the true population mean. In practice, different folks find different things, some like them, others do not. This is good. More evaluators reduces chance that only the tails of the distribution is sampled from, even tho the tails are often the most interesting. I like panels of four, but five would be cool if people were judicious in their use of samples. --dave dave_sapsis at fire.ca.gov --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC80525B2A6; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:58:34 -0500 >From root Fri Jan 8 20:57:11 1999 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA28450 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28404 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA32716 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:57:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drbeer at doctorbeer.com) Received: from drbeer (p19.tc2.bedfo.MA.tiac.com [209.61.104.84]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20425 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drbeer at doctorbeer.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901082100.QAA20425 at mail-out-2.tiac.net> X-Sender: drbeer at pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: number of judges at MCAB Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message > I think it would be better to have four or even five >judges on a panel than to waste the talents of the judges that are >present. Imagine getting an entry back that was judged by three >Master judges and two National judges -- that would really impress >me as to the quality of the competition and the accuracy of the >comments. I agree. I also think that one other pro-argument has been overlooked. While Louis is intent on providing the most highly skilled judge panel, this is not the exclusive goal of the BJCP. The BJCP's goal in sanctioning events is to award experience points. Experience points however are a proxy for what would probably best be described as on-the-job training. The interest of the BJCP is also served, at least in part, by matching less experienced judges with more experienced judges to provide learning opportunities. Expanding panel size expands the number of individuals afforded an opportunity to improve their skills. It is my personal recommendation as one of the exam directors that panel size be set at 4 judges, which seems to me to be a reasonable comprise between accomodating more people but maintaining managebale logistics. Louis and I have already discussed this at length, and I commend him for soliciting a broader range of opinions. I'm sure whatever his final choice on the arrangement, it will be a well considered one. I look forward to participating in this event and hope to see as many of as can attend there. Jay H. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalt's --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344-- Received: from srvr22.engin.umich.edu (root at srvr22.engin.umich.edu [141.212.2.35]) by srvr5.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22381 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from synchro.com (cccox.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.144.90]) by srvr22.engin.umich.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA05610 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:06:49 -0500 (EST) From: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" To: "Digest Recipients" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Subject: Digest for the period 01/08/99 - 01/09/99 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:03:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="Next_Part_SYNC80575B344" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Hops: 1 Status: RO --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Table of contents ------------------------------------------------------ Re: Ancient, Medieval, and Indigenous Beer Category (Jeff Renner) RE: judge numbers (DAVE SAPSIS) number of judges at MCAB (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=) --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC80415B1F3; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:00:58 -0500 >From root Fri Jan 8 08:59:13 1999 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA13655 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.15]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13432 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.75.177.239] (pm467-17.dialip.mich.net [207.75.177.171]) by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) with ESMTP id IAA28756 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:59:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nerenner at n.imap.itd.umich.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:00:21 -0500 To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: Jeff Renner Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: Re: Ancient, Medieval, and Indigenous Beer Category Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message Peter Zien writes: >America's Finest City Homebrew Competition in San Diego, Ca. has chosen to >add an additional style category to the AHA styles for our 1999 contest. >I, along with Greg Lorton, came up with Ancient, Medieval, and Indigenous >Beers. We are busy preparing historical example guidelines and narrowing >down the available literary sources for such. Sounds like fun. I have a midieval "Domesday Ale" going, 50% homemalted oats, 25% each wheat and barley malts. No hops, OG 1096. I suggest that you publicize this in hist-brewing-digest. I think you must be a member to post. This is a low traffic digest that is made up of members of the Society for Creative Anachronism and others, like me, who are just interested in historic styles, but don't call ourselves Duke of Grand Fenwicke. (It seems that everyone in SCA is Lord or Lady or Sir this or that. Where are the great unwashed masses of churls, serfs, peons and peasants whose lives were "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" that made up 99.99% of midieval society?) To subscribe, send email to majordomo at pbm.com containing the words "subscribe hist-brewing" (or subscribe hist-brewing-digest, if you want the digest.) To contact a human about problems, send mail to owner-hist-brewing at pbm.com Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC80505B280; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:07:03 -0500 >From root Fri Jan 8 18:04:01 1999 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA08076 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from caforestry-bh.fire.ca.gov (caforestry-bh.fire.ca.gov [12.7.198.66]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07922 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from exchsac1.fire.ca.gov by caforestry-bh.fire.ca.gov via smtpd (for postoffice.harvard.net [209.21.182.5]) with SMTP; 8 Jan 1999 23:04:08 UT Received: from ccgate1.fire.ca.gov ([165.105.200.5]) by exchsac1.fire.ca.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id CRNTK5ND; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:04:07 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ccgate1.fire.ca.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.03 (Beta 5) Enterprise) id 00094879; Fri, 8 Jan 99 15:36:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:02:00 -0800 Message-ID: <00094879.1211 at fire.ca.gov> From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS) Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: RE: judge numbers To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message I concur with Mike, and I think Jeremy as well, in that all other things constant, more judges are better. This assumes some things, and is also subject to some constraints. The biggest constraint appears to be extracting samples from the bottles in a sufficient and fair manner. I have no problem evaluating beers with a very small volume -- around 2 oz pours, but this requires appropriate glassware that most competitions do not provide. I usually only actually drink about an oz. The basic assumptions go like: if the mean score of independent evalauations represents the best measure of the "true" score for a given beer, then more samles will better estimate the true population mean. In practice, different folks find different things, some like them, others do not. This is good. More evaluators reduces chance that only the tails of the distribution is sampled from, even tho the tails are often the most interesting. I like panels of four, but five would be cool if people were judicious in their use of samples. --dave dave_sapsis at fire.ca.gov --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from postoffice.harvard.net by synchro.com with POP3 (Mailtraq/1.0.3.1018) id SYNC80525B2A6; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:58:34 -0500 >From root Fri Jan 8 20:57:11 1999 Received: (from root at localhost) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA28450 for postmaster at synchro.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by airsupply.harvard.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28404 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA32716 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:57:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drbeer at doctorbeer.com) Received: from drbeer (p19.tc2.bedfo.MA.tiac.com [209.61.104.84]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20425 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drbeer at doctorbeer.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901082100.QAA20425 at mail-out-2.tiac.net> X-Sender: drbeer at pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: JudgeNet - the beer judge digest From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=" Reply-To: "JudgeNet - the beer judge digest" Errors-To: judge-owner at synchro.com Sender: judge at synchro.com Subject: number of judges at MCAB Apparently-To: judge at synchro.com X-Hops: 3 X-POST-MessageClass: 10; Mailing List Message > I think it would be better to have four or even five >judges on a panel than to waste the talents of the judges that are >present. Imagine getting an entry back that was judged by three >Master judges and two National judges -- that would really impress >me as to the quality of the competition and the accuracy of the >comments. I agree. I also think that one other pro-argument has been overlooked. While Louis is intent on providing the most highly skilled judge panel, this is not the exclusive goal of the BJCP. The BJCP's goal in sanctioning events is to award experience points. Experience points however are a proxy for what would probably best be described as on-the-job training. The interest of the BJCP is also served, at least in part, by matching less experienced judges with more experienced judges to provide learning opportunities. Expanding panel size expands the number of individuals afforded an opportunity to improve their skills. It is my personal recommendation as one of the exam directors that panel size be set at 4 judges, which seems to me to be a reasonable comprise between accomodating more people but maintaining managebale logistics. Louis and I have already discussed this at length, and I commend him for soliciting a broader range of opinions. I'm sure whatever his final choice on the arrangement, it will be a well considered one. I look forward to participating in this event and hope to see as many of as can attend there. Jay H. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalt's --Next_Part_SYNC80575B344--